Win 1-0 or Lose 4-3

[merlin]

The question is really whether the temporary highs of winning 1-0 makes up for the lack of enjoyment you'd get from the football. In comparison to having a great time watching the game & coming out on the losing side.

 

Bringing relegation into things is just confusing people.

 

I think generally most would prefer to lose 4-3 on a one off game when they looked back. Its what the game is all about, that excitement...the low from losing just masks that. Its pretty rare to remember a one off 1-0 win.

 

Obviously if you made it a regular occurance of playing well & losing, it would losing its excitement and just become frustrating. So that alters things.

 

...'Bringing relegation into things is just confusing people'....

 

Well, you got it partly right - it would certainly confuse the club's bankers !

Unbelievable that anyone could think that relegation doesn't matter in all this.

[mrmojorisin75]

for me the question would be better put: would you prefer to see NUFC approach every game with the intention of winning it 1 - 0, i.e. setup defensively and try to steal something; or would you prefer a more attacking philosophy in every game that could result in high scoring games but maybe more losses vs. draws?

 

neither one would guarantee success or relegation - it's a question about aesthetics

 

for me it's the latter everyday

[Jayson]

The question is really whether the temporary highs of winning 1-0 makes up for the lack of enjoyment you'd get from the football. In comparison to having a great time watching the game & coming out on the losing side.

 

Bringing relegation into things is just confusing people.

 

I think generally most would prefer to lose 4-3 on a one off game when they looked back. Its what the game is all about, that excitement...the low from losing just masks that. Its pretty rare to remember a one off 1-0 win.

 

Obviously if you made it a regular occurance of playing well & losing, it would losing its excitement and just become frustrating. So that alters things.

 

...'Bringing relegation into things is just confusing people'....

 

Well, you got it partly right - it would certainly confuse the club's bankers !

Unbelievable that anyone could think that relegation doesn't matter in all this.

 

You're proving my point really. I didnt say relegation doesnt matter anywhere, its just gone over your head.

[Guest Roger Kint]

We havent(and wont) see decent football in years so its pointless banging on about it. We all pay a lot of money to follow the team and i would take sucess over sexy football anyday.

 

Constantly finishing around 14th-15th would be a success to you?

 

Ok show me where in my post i come anywhere near saying that?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

for me the question would be better put: would you prefer to see NUFC approach every game with the intention of winning it 1 - 0, i.e. setup defensively and try to steal something; or would you prefer a more attacking philosophy in every game that could result in high scoring games but maybe more losses vs. draws?

 

neither one would guarantee success or relegation - it's a question about aesthetics

 

for me it's the latter everyday

 

Well it's not just a question about aesthetics, it's a question about which you think is more likely to work.

[madras]

which would most likely work ? The former against some teams, the latter against others.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

which would most likely work ? The former against some teams, the latter against others.

 

Yep, probably, I'm not really sure. My personal preference is to go out and attack, but I've got the luxury of being a fan and not a manager whose job is on the line.

 

I can see why Hughton has employed a reletively conservative approach in many games though, it was clearly working and we were picking up points.

 

When we start going 5 or 6 weeks without a win, it will be really interesting to see what happens.

[kane2005]

I can't believe anyone would rather LOSE instead of WIN tbh. ha.

[merlin]

The question is really whether the temporary highs of winning 1-0 makes up for the lack of enjoyment you'd get from the football. In comparison to having a great time watching the game & coming out on the losing side.

 

Bringing relegation into things is just confusing people.

 

I think generally most would prefer to lose 4-3 on a one off game when they looked back. Its what the game is all about, that excitement...the low from losing just masks that. Its pretty rare to remember a one off 1-0 win.

 

Obviously if you made it a regular occurance of playing well & losing, it would losing its excitement and just become frustrating. So that alters things.

 

...'Bringing relegation into things is just confusing people'....

 

Well, you got it partly right - it would certainly confuse the club's bankers !

Unbelievable that anyone could think that relegation doesn't matter in all this.

 

You're proving my point really. I didnt say relegation doesnt matter anywhere, its just gone over your head.

 

You are correct there, too - it HAS gone over my head and, I suspect, over everyone else's who is reading this. Sorry to have to labour the point but football at the top level is ALL about results.

[NG32]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

[merlin]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

We don't have Man U's spending power - even though that has been cut back ; we also don't have the same spending power as we did when KK was manager in the 90's. We ALL want winning/attacking football, but we haven't the means to buy it so we have to produce it locally - an that will take time and shrewd buying.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

Does KK get slagged off for playing attacking football? I've never heard that.

[Jayson]

You're proving my point really. I didnt say relegation doesnt matter anywhere, its just gone over your head.

 

You are correct there, too - it HAS gone over my head and, I suspect, over everyone else's who is reading this. Sorry to have to labour the point but football at the top level is ALL about results.

 

Its not really. You watch football to enjoy yourself, thats why you started watching it. Theres not much use winning in a sport you're no longer finding enjoyable to watch in the first place. At that point you're just tied in through loyalty due to when you previously enjoyed it or the hope that in the future it will once again become enjoyable.

 

In my point i took relegation out of the equation, which you then randomly took as me saying it didnt matter.

 

To get the most out of football for a viewer there has to be a balance between enjoying what you watch & getting the results. So say finishing 10th yet having a season full of end to end high scoring games that you're sometimes on the losing end of, may actually end up being a far more enjoyable season for a fan....than finishing 8th with a load of 1-0's.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We only put up with the non-enjoyable football in the hope that it will keep us in the top flight long enough for it to become enjoyable in the future, that's a very good point.

 

If we honestly believed we could never progress, or football was only ever going to be boring and frustrating, then we might see a decline in fans.

[Guest Brummiemag]

But thats the problem - play shit football this season and survive, maybe I could accept it in the short term if I thought it would improve in the future, but I don't think it will improve. It will be the same for years to come in my opinion beacuse Ashley will not invest in players.

 

All the other clubs have youth policies and scouting systems, theres no reason to think ours will be any better than theirs.

 

I'm afraid that leaves us with the prospect of year after year of negative, dull, defensive football with the sole objective being survival in the Premier League and no chance in the Cups because we will be playing weakened teams because survival as always will be the priority. If we are lucky we could emulate Bolton or Stoke in 3 or 4 years time. Great

 

Its a grim prospect and likely to be played out in front of smaller and smaller crowds and thats why I start with the premise of trying to play decent football and then see what happens.

[UV]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

We don't have Man U's spending power - even though that has been cut back ; we also don't have the same spending power as we did when KK was manager in the 90's. We ALL want winning/attacking football, but we haven't the means to buy it so we have to produce it locally - an that will take time and shrewd buying.

 

While it's true we can't compete with the teams getting regular champions league football and those with rich sugar daddies, we have (or should have) a bigger advantage over the majority of other clubs in this league than we did back then, thanks to a built up fanbase and a larger stadium. Where does the idea we're suddenly paupers and should accept it come from?

[OzzieMandias]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

That's the second time you've run that one up the mast. It's bollocks.

[Guest Electric Nun]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

We don't have Man U's spending power - even though that has been cut back ; we also don't have the same spending power as we did when KK was manager in the 90's. We ALL want winning/attacking football, but we haven't the means to buy it so we have to produce it locally - an that will take time and shrewd buying.

 

While it's true we can't compete with the teams getting regular champions league football and those with rich sugar daddies, we have (or should have) a bigger advantage over the majority of other clubs in this league than we did back then, thanks to a built up fanbase and a larger stadium. Where does the idea we're suddenly paupers and should accept it come from?

 

From the fact that we are millions in debt with an owner who has stated that his plan is to get the debt sorted, meaning we employ a relatively low profile manager with little money to spend.

[UV]

Does KK get slagged off for playing attacking football? I've never heard that.

 

That's the second time you've run that one up the mast. It's bollocks.

 

I can only imagine neither of you have read any of the Keegan threads.

 

We "threw away a 12 point lead" due to "Keegan's cavalier tactics" because we "didn't know how to defend" don't you know.

[UV]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

We don't have Man U's spending power - even though that has been cut back ; we also don't have the same spending power as we did when KK was manager in the 90's. We ALL want winning/attacking football, but we haven't the means to buy it so we have to produce it locally - an that will take time and shrewd buying.

 

While it's true we can't compete with the teams getting regular champions league football and those with rich sugar daddies, we have (or should have) a bigger advantage over the majority of other clubs in this league than we did back then, thanks to a built up fanbase and a larger stadium. Where does the idea we're suddenly paupers and should accept it come from?

 

From the fact that we are millions in debt with an owner who has stated that his plan is to get the debt sorted, meaning we employ a relatively low profile manager with little money to spend.

 

So we have to pay back £130m (or whatever it currently stands at) to Ashley before we can start spending again? Do you think that's what Ashley means by "break even"? £25m profits for the next 5 years until he's paid himself back the debt? That should be fun.

[NG32]

Does KK get slagged off for playing attacking football? I've never heard that.

 

That's the second time you've run that one up the mast. It's bollocks.

 

I can only imagine neither of you have read any of the Keegan threads.

 

We "threw away a 12 point lead" due to "Keegan's cavalier tactics" because we "didn't know how to defend" don't you know.

 

But still had the second best defense in the league with our all out attacking football.

[merlin]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

We don't have Man U's spending power - even though that has been cut back ; we also don't have the same spending power as we did when KK was manager in the 90's. We ALL want winning/attacking football, but we haven't the means to buy it so we have to produce it locally - an that will take time and shrewd buying.

 

While it's true we can't compete with the teams getting regular champions league football and those with rich sugar daddies, we have (or should have) a bigger advantage over the majority of other clubs in this league than we did back then, thanks to a built up fanbase and a larger stadium. Where does the idea we're suddenly paupers and should accept it come from?

 

Because 1) the stadium capacity/fan base will only become an advantage once FIFA/UEFA bring in rules that force clubs to run on at least a break-even basis

 

2) Regardless of how much money is raised through STs, Merchandise sales etc., the buying policy is dictated by the owner and Ashley is clearly NOT going to allow large transfer budgets OR big wages.

 

In the a/m circumstances, the manager has no alternative but to look for bargains and concentrate on the Youth policy. In any case, unless CL football is achieved, NUFC will NEVER be able to compete at the top level and fans will have to be satisfied with a constant battle to retain PL status and poss  the odd cup run.

 

Several thousand more fans at SJP will not make us better than other similar clubs - if that were the only criteria, we should be better than Everton and Spurs, but it will take years before we are anything like as good on the park. The club's location in the NE is also a handicap when competing for decent players within the price range unless they have a local connection..

 

Do you see anything different to this happening ?

[NG32]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

We don't have Man U's spending power - even though that has been cut back ; we also don't have the same spending power as we did when KK was manager in the 90's. We ALL want winning/attacking football, but we haven't the means to buy it so we have to produce it locally - an that will take time and shrewd buying.

 

While it's true we can't compete with the teams getting regular champions league football and those with rich sugar daddies, we have (or should have) a bigger advantage over the majority of other clubs in this league than we did back then, thanks to a built up fanbase and a larger stadium. Where does the idea we're suddenly paupers and should accept it come from?

 

Because 1) the stadium capacity/fan base will only become an advantage once FIFA/UEFA bring in rules that force clubs to run on at least a break-even basis

 

2) Regardless of how much money is raised through STs, Merchandise sales etc., the buying policy is dictated by the owner and Ashley is clearly NOT going to allow large transfer budgets OR big wages.

 

In the a/m circumstances, the manager has no alternative but to look for bargains and concentrate on the Youth policy. In any case, unless CL football is achieved, NUFC will NEVER be able to compete at the top level and fans will have to be satisfied with a constant battle to retain PL status and poss  the odd cup run.

 

Several thousand more fans at SJP will not make us better than other similar clubs - if that were the only criteria, we should be better than Everton and Spurs, but it will take years before we are anything like as good on the park. The club's location in the NE is also a handicap when competing for decent players within the price range unless they have a local connection..

 

Do you see anything different to this happening ?

 

THis is why you have to make the club attractive to play for....

[alpal78]

You're proving my point really. I didnt say relegation doesnt matter anywhere, its just gone over your head.

 

You are correct there, too - it HAS gone over my head and, I suspect, over everyone else's who is reading this. Sorry to have to labour the point but football at the top level is ALL about results.

 

Its not really. You watch football to enjoy yourself, thats why you started watching it. Theres not much use winning in a sport you're no longer finding enjoyable to watch in the first place. At that point you're just tied in through loyalty due to when you previously enjoyed it or the hope that in the future it will once again become enjoyable.

 

In my point i took relegation out of the equation, which you then randomly took as me saying it didnt matter.

 

To get the most out of football for a viewer there has to be a balance between enjoying what you watch & getting the results. So say finishing 10th yet having a season full of end to end high scoring games that you're sometimes on the losing end of, may actually end up being a far more enjoyable season for a fan....than finishing 8th with a load of 1-0's.

 

Can't believe you had to explain that, it was clear the first time.

[UV]

Man Utd manage to get results but also do it playing attacking football.  Hmmm KK used to do that and now gets slagged off for it.

 

Funny what people want really.

 

We don't have Man U's spending power - even though that has been cut back ; we also don't have the same spending power as we did when KK was manager in the 90's. We ALL want winning/attacking football, but we haven't the means to buy it so we have to produce it locally - an that will take time and shrewd buying.

 

While it's true we can't compete with the teams getting regular champions league football and those with rich sugar daddies, we have (or should have) a bigger advantage over the majority of other clubs in this league than we did back then, thanks to a built up fanbase and a larger stadium. Where does the idea we're suddenly paupers and should accept it come from?

 

Because 1) the stadium capacity/fan base will only become an advantage once FIFA/UEFA bring in rules that force clubs to run on at least a break-even basis

 

2) Regardless of how much money is raised through STs, Merchandise sales etc., the buying policy is dictated by the owner and Ashley is clearly NOT going to allow large transfer budgets OR big wages.

 

In the a/m circumstances, the manager has no alternative but to look for bargains and concentrate on the Youth policy. In any case, unless CL football is achieved, NUFC will NEVER be able to compete at the top level and fans will have to be satisfied with a constant battle to retain PL status and poss  the odd cup run.

 

Several thousand more fans at SJP will not make us better than other similar clubs - if that were the only criteria, we should be better than Everton and Spurs, but it will take years before we are anything like as good on the park. The club's location in the NE is also a handicap when competing for decent players within the price range unless they have a local connection..

 

Do you see anything different to this happening ?

 

1) Unless clubs have owners who are putting their own money in they already run like that or collapse quickly. Either way we have a short or medium term advantage. If 3 premiership clubs overextend themselves and go bust a year we don't have to worry about relegation at all. The point stands, we (should) have a financial advantage over all but half a dozen or so clubs in this league.

 

I wasn't in any way having a go at Hughton. He has to deal with the reality of the funds he's given and the squad he has, and has to try and play the tactics that he thinks will get the best results from that group of lads.

 

More fans at SJP should give us a competitive advantage over other similar clubs. The extra has to be spent wisely to translate that onto the pitch, but it at least means that there should be absolutely no chance barring an injury crisis that this club should have been relegated. We won't finish above all the teams we have an advantage over every season, that's just unrealistic, but on average we DID used to finish better off than the likes of Everton, Spurs, Villa, etc.

 

I am not and have never asked Ashley to put money into this club, but I also don't expect him to use it to recoup the losses the club has made under his ownership due to his mismanagement. If indeed the club is supposed to be paying back the loan to Ashley as someone suggested above, then we honestly would have been better off going into administration 3 years ago as the doom-mongers pretend we were about to do. By now we'd probably have recovered and have a clean slate rather than have the prospect of any profits from a frugal existence going to paying off his debt for the foreseeable future.

 

Under Ashley, you're right I don't see anything different happening, but don't try and make out it's inherently like that and he has no choice but to do it the hard way (and probably fail).