Ronaldo Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Milner, N'Zogbia, Routledge: other clubs wanted them. That's why they're gone and he's still here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 If Jonas was available at Routledge's fee & wages, he'd be snapped up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 By who? A manager who hadn't done his research perhaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 Someone in the Premier League, or even Spain or Italy would imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted December 12, 2012 Share Posted December 12, 2012 I highly doubt that tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Jonas' lack of delivery from wide has been even more highlighted by us not having a natural left back. I don't think it's a coincidence that our best work down the left used to come when he was teamed up with Enrique. If we are going to play Santon there then we need a left winger with a peach of a left foot. I'd much much much much rather just play Santon down the right, where he's a force of nature Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 We definitely suffer from the amount of players we have who want/need to cut inside. If we matched Debuchy and HBA on one side, and Santon and Marveaux on the other, we would look more fluid and versatile. FWIW I think Santon is fine on the left, and I would leave him there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 He's very good indeed on either side, fullback or winger, but I remember when he broke through at Inter and kept Maicon out of the team while Mourinho creamed over him... He really was blistering over on the right I've already rabbited on about this in the wrong thread but Gutierrez is clearly not even a winger. He's the most natural carrilero going, but what does he ever provide from the wing? Work rate, making a three man midfield seem like a four man midfield, surging runs through the middle, making space for more creative players... this is a hunch but, being Argentinian, I think it's very likely indeed that he grew up as a carrilero and became a winger after he moved to Europe. They all play 4-3-1-2 in Argentina, with players just like him either side of a Veron type with a Riquelme or an Aimar in front, and there isn't really a culture of wingers. And he's certainly no fullback, as he demonstrated in the last World Cup. He's a carrilero so we should use him as one, in a midfield three. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanji Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 We definitely suffer from the amount of players we have who want/need to cut inside. If we matched Debuchy and HBA on one side, and Santon and Marveaux on the other, we would look more fluid and versatile. FWIW I think Santon is fine on the left, and I would leave him there. Agree. The issue here is our right RB and LW are crap. Upgrading that by adding an attacking RB (Debuchy) and finding someone to play on the left side (even if that means adding just a more mobile midfielder on the left side of 3 CM's or Marv on LW or Ba on LW) it instantly makes both sides (assuming Ben Arfa is wide right) more potent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 He's very good indeed on either side, fullback or winger, but I remember when he broke through at Inter and kept Maicon out of the team while Mourinho creamed over him... He really was blistering over on the right I've already rabbited on about this in the wrong thread but Gutierrez is clearly not even a winger. He's the most natural carrilero going, but what does he ever provide from the wing? Work rate, making a three man midfield seem like a four man midfield, surging runs through the middle, making space for more creative players... this is a hunch but, being Argentinian, I think it's very likely indeed that he grew up as a carrilero and became a winger after he moved to Europe. They all play 4-3-1-2 in Argentina, with players just like him either side of a Veron type with a Riquelme or an Aimar in front, and there isn't really a culture of wingers. And he's certainly no fullback, as he demonstrated in the last World Cup. He's a carrilero so we should use him as one, in a midfield three. That's definitely where he's looked best for us in recent times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 He's very good indeed on either side, fullback or winger, but I remember when he broke through at Inter and kept Maicon out of the team while Mourinho creamed over him... He really was blistering over on the right I've already rabbited on about this in the wrong thread but Gutierrez is clearly not even a winger. He's the most natural carrilero going, but what does he ever provide from the wing? Work rate, making a three man midfield seem like a four man midfield, surging runs through the middle, making space for more creative players... this is a hunch but, being Argentinian, I think it's very likely indeed that he grew up as a carrilero and became a winger after he moved to Europe. They all play 4-3-1-2 in Argentina, with players just like him either side of a Veron type with a Riquelme or an Aimar in front, and there isn't really a culture of wingers. And he's certainly no fullback, as he demonstrated in the last World Cup. He's a carrilero so we should use him as one, in a midfield three. Superb analysis, totally agree as well although I'm not sure we've the players for a 4-3-1-2 not am I sure it'd work in the PL. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Used to have an Y-reg Carrilero. Beautiful little runners. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I thought he looked like he remembered who he was for a few minutes in the second half against Fulham. If he can find any sort of form again he could be invaluable for some of these games coming up, particularly on Saturday. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I thought he looked like he remembered who he was for a few minutes in the second half against Fulham. If he can find any sort of form again he could be invaluable for some of these games coming up, particularly on Saturday. Last 5-10 mins or so he seemed to take it upon himself to be a creative outlet, useful given as we didn't have any others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 he's still a decent player, but playing badly compared to last season. To say he's finished is going way over board. He fitted into a system last season that worked , this season it's not just him thats bad. Colo, Cisse, Tiote , has been really poor compared to last season, are they finished as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Colo and Cisse have been brilliant for years and Tiote's hanging off the back of his debut season. Jonas has never been on that level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I still have faith in Jonas at least in playing as CM. Just seems to be extremely low on confidence now for some reason. Last season his passing was fine and he played many lovely through balls. The constant changing of his position seems to have taken away his confidence in beating his man and that reflects to his whole play no matter where he plays. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Colo and Cisse have been brilliant for years and Tiote's hanging off the back of his debut season. Jonas has never been on that level. I think this is Tiote's only "poor" season since he joined. Was great last year. We had great results. He wasn't great in any sense. Last season his passing was fine and he played many lovely through balls. Serious? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I was serious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I don't blame you, lads. Everytime we won last season the stock of certain fan favourites went up, and there's no harm in that per se. It does lead to unreasonable expectations down the line, though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 I'm not expecting Jonas to be like Xavi, just saying that he's a better passer than he's been showing this season and IMO it all comes down to confidence issues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 He's very good indeed on either side, fullback or winger, but I remember when he broke through at Inter and kept Maicon out of the team while Mourinho creamed over him... He really was blistering over on the right I've already rabbited on about this in the wrong thread but Gutierrez is clearly not even a winger. He's the most natural carrilero going, but what does he ever provide from the wing? Work rate, making a three man midfield seem like a four man midfield, surging runs through the middle, making space for more creative players... this is a hunch but, being Argentinian, I think it's very likely indeed that he grew up as a carrilero and became a winger after he moved to Europe. They all play 4-3-1-2 in Argentina, with players just like him either side of a Veron type with a Riquelme or an Aimar in front, and there isn't really a culture of wingers. And he's certainly no fullback, as he demonstrated in the last World Cup. He's a carrilero so we should use him as one, in a midfield three. Superb analysis, totally agree as well although I'm not sure we've the players for a 4-3-1-2 not am I sure it'd work in the PL. Ancelotti's record high-scoring, title-winning Chelsea side of 09/10 say hi! They switched between 4-3-1-2 and 4-3-2-1 (same principle with regards the central midfielders and both systems he'd used frequently at Milan) throughout that season, before lapsing into more of a 4-3-3 towards the end of Ancelotti's reign. At times it was unclear exactly what formation they were using because you'd have Anelka dropping off to the right but sometimes playing behind the strikers, Malouda sometimes playing as left centre mid and sometimes outright left-winger, Deco in the hole but sometimes as more of a centre mid, but using the diamond and other Ancelotti-style narrow formations they administered several utter humpings in the league and set a goalscoring record. Seemed like it was 5-1 every other week at one point. As for NUFC having the players: Ba Cisse HBA Jonas Tiote Cabaye Santon Simpson Colo Whoever Ben Arfa and Cabaye playing in their perfect roles (man in the hole and playmaker), Jonas playing where he was born to play, Tiote pretending to be Gattuso on the other side which suits him down to the ground... only thing you'd need to do to make it the perfect Ancelotti diamond would be to put Santon on the right and sign a left back... I get the impression the whole system is alien to someone like Pardew though. Not because he's a bad manager, just because we have no culture of playing that way. Santon, Colo and Gutierrez would understand it implicitly, and any Italian or Argentinian manager could get our players doing it in days flat on the training ground, but I can't remember the last time a Premier League side played a diamond like that, except perhaps Man Utd very recently, and that was remarked upon in the press for being a radical departure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 i like jonas but i don't see him as a midfield 3. He don't fit in that system, where he fits in well is in a Pardew flat rigid 4-4-1-1 system, where you get that double pivot system of the fullback and winger working in tandems. His passing has never been good, not his strength, but he has not become a bad player over night. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tollemache Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 Just thought I'd do some Googling to confirm my hunch, and: http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,53940.msg1446950.html#msg1446950 That seems to suggest he was being played as a carrilero before his move to Newcastle. For Argentina or Velez? Looks like Argentina but I wasn't aware he was a regular in their team at that point... Will hold my hands up if so http://old.clarin.com/diario/2004/10/27/deportes/d-05003.htm That's from 2004 and also mentions he's a carrilero (able to play that role on either side it says). So I think my hunch is correct. For Argentina to produce an outright winger would just be weird anyway. He's a carrilero. He. is. a. carrilero. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted December 13, 2012 Share Posted December 13, 2012 That's the point, though. He's never been a good 'footballer'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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