Alan Pardew

[Dave]

I fail to understand how the people who see positives in our play this season (and there have been many) can't also see that those positives are getting more sporadic as the season goes on. If it was the other way around then everyone would be delighted, but it's not and that's the concern. On the whole we're actually devolving in terms of the style of play - something that Pardew himself has championed as a key point to watch this season. Yes, there have been injuries, suspensions and the ACoN to deal with but none of these are things that other clubs don't also have to deal with.

 

Qualifying for Europe would be an amazing success, but as others have suggested it might be way too early for us as a club.

[Jayson]

Out of all the one players who scored a goal in the game, one of them was  Newcastle player.

 

That's very relevant to the topic of passing, cheers.

 

Quite pertinent to the topic of winning football matches, which Alan Pardew (the perosn being discussed in this thread) is paid to do.  Just broadening the debate is all

 

I don't think anyone's debating that we won the game.

Could've fooled me.

 

We beat a confident Norwich side. Who don't forget, beat us 4-2 last time out.

 

The point discussed is how we seem to win games by solitary goals usually dependent on some outstanding play by one of of Cisse, Ba or HBA instead of teamwork with a coherent formation and tactics (unless you consider the hoofing in the second half as tactics). The problem with the model that we are adopting is that we don't dominate games and can at anytime lose/draw games that in theory we should/can win. It also gives us next to zero chance (Man Utd game aside) of taking points of the top 4-6 teams even at home, which is what we should be targeting if we are serious on getting into Europe. Maybe some will have to wait till we get a tonking from Liverpool for the penny to drop.

 

Dependant on outstanding play? Cant really say that in this example when Cisse missed more sitters than class goals he scored. We dont dominate games no, it hasnt made us less likely to lose/draw games than we should win in theory. Look back at the season, bar unusual circumstances we pretty much win every game you'd expect under Pardew. I made a thread on this yesterday.

We definately do less well against the top 7 but its to be expected. Which games so far against them would you have expected more from us?

 

Swansea at home, Wolves at home, Sunderland at home, West Brom at home. Definately more points on offer in those games.

 

Wolves/Sunderland yeah & individual circumstances still decided those games. Swansea/Wbrom i wouldnt say we could have expected much more.

 

We drew 0-0 with Swansea and lost 2-3 against West Brom at home. Both teams currently ranked 8th and 12th respectively. Maybe we just have different expectations, if we are targeting Europe and beyond, using Pip's formula in the OP of the "Battle for 7th" thread, these are teams that we should be beating at home. I'm curious why you think we couldn't (shouldn't?) expect more than a total 1 point out of the potential 6 on offer??

 

You'd expect to win looking at them yeah. Swansea achieved their lowest poss all season in our game, went all out defence & theyre hard enough to score against when they dont do that as Man city found out. If you remember there was barely any space in the box atall, Ba had to do acrobatic overheads to get a shot that wasnt blocked & it was still saved. He also hit the post. Dont think we could have done much more.

 

West Brom was just our defense for me due to having 1 Cb. 2 goals should be enough to get points from a game. Only Spurs/Arsenal/Swansea have put 3 past wbrom all season & swansea needed a penalty. So that leaves 2 sides who managed it & theyre 2 of the best attacking sides in the league. Possible to do? Yes. But no chance can we expect it. We just conceded to many.

 

For the Swansea game, based on soccernet's stats, possession was 51% vs 49% in their favor. Perhaps they were ultra defensive, but this is even more reason to believe that the way to break down a resolute defence is not by lumping the ball forward but by playing passing the ball around and moving up as a team. You only need to see how the top teams do this when faced with such a defensive strategy. This is what we don't do which is why end up losing points that we could have won. Crucially out of the 22 shots we had, only 3 were on target which is what you get from percentage football ala Pardew.

 

You might have a point that against West Brom, it is our defence that screwed up. But once again out of 26 shots, only 5 were on target. This low percentage of shots of target is a clear symptom of percentage football where you just try to shoot even if in a crappy position as opposed to creating genuine chances (like one on ones) where it is harder to miss.

 

The seasonal possession stats put earlier in the the thread had them down at 42%, bbc has it at 43%. So few were on target likely due to the number of blocks they put in on shots. Again, check their scores against the other best sides on the division. They barely concede. There is no solid reason to believe any change of how we played would have resulted in more, nor was this game an example of us lumping it as our possession showed.

 

I havent checked SOT v w brom, but all of this would influence pardews tactics anyway. You can say we have less chances, but the quality of our strikers (Ba at that time) also score from less as he did with 2 goals. If that happens it enables you to give them less to work with if that results in you better balancing your side. For us meaning our defence is better covered by the midfielders.

[Optimistic Nut]

I fail to understand how the people who see positives in our play this season (and there have been many) can't also see that those positives are getting more sporadic as the season goes on. If it was the other way around then everyone would be delighted, but it's not and that's the concern. On the whole we're actually devolving in terms of the style of play - something that Pardew himself has championed as a key point to watch this season. Yes, there have been injuries, suspensions and the ACoN to deal with but none of these are things that other clubs don't also have to deal with.

 

Qualifying for Europe would be an amazing success, but as others have suggested it might be way too early for us as a club.

 

Again, I think that's more down to the fact it got him results in the first few months, stick with what he knows works.

 

If we'd had an average start and were around mid-table with the likes of Norwich & Swansea, I dare say we might try being more fluid as there'd be no pressure. Pardew is under immense pressure to finish 7th at the minute so can see why it's more about getting points than performances at this stage of the season.

[mrmojorisin75]

is it not just what he did at west ham though?  big lad up top, hard working wingers, get the ball forward as early as possible, under use genuinely top class footballers for some reason to the point of alienation (to come for hba), have a good season or two then when the wheels come off have no answer to how to stop it?

 

it all seems eerily similar to me

 

dave's post was spot on as well by the way, the good aspects of his approach are becoming more sporadic, that's all anyone is really saying

[Jayson]

I dont think our overall play has changed that much, Ba has just become less prolific recently & Krul's long balls have started wearing on people overtime. Defensively not much has changed & thats Pardews main strength. In our last 3 Norwich couldnt score, Arsenal only managed a 2nd via an error, Sunderland needed a pen to score.

[Guest Deadmau5]

Arsenal only managed a 2nd via an error

 

very good

[Optimistic Nut]

is it not just what he did at west ham though?  big lad up top, hard working wingers, get the ball forward as early as possible, under use genuinely top class footballers for some reason to the point of alienation (to come for hba), have a good season or two then when the wheels come off have no answer to how to stop it?

 

it all seems eerily similar to me

 

dave's post was spot on as well by the way, the good aspects of his approach are becoming more sporadic, that's all anyone is really saying

 

He also signed, and played, Yossi Benayoun, who was brilliant in that season where they finished mid-table and almost won the FA Cup.

[Hughesy]

I fail to understand how the people who see positives in our play this season (and there have been many) can't also see that those positives are getting more sporadic as the season goes on. If it was the other way around then everyone would be delighted, but it's not and that's the concern. On the whole we're actually devolving in terms of the style of play - something that Pardew himself has championed as a key point to watch this season. Yes, there have been injuries, suspensions and the ACoN to deal with but none of these are things that other clubs don't also have to deal with.

 

Qualifying for Europe would be an amazing success, but as others have suggested it might be way too early for us as a club.

 

I don't think that the negative Pardew posts are as objective and rational as they should be - certainly not as rational as your post.  Quite quickly they degenerate into either just plain abuse and name calling of Pardew or posts suggesting that he is clueless, tactically naive and a PR man (or all of the above).

[Jayson]

Arsenal only managed a 2nd via an error

 

very good

 

How do you disagree?

[Guest Deadmau5]

Very strange game yesterday. We started the game really well I thought (there was a definite emphasis on passing it around, and Krul and Williamson didn't hoof it in the first 15 mins at all), but as soon as we scored and the crowd got on Williamson's back for that insane moment in the first half, we seemed to lose confidence in our ability to pass it around. That being said, without playing well at all after that, we still could have easily scored another 3 or 4 goals.

 

All of the players did look shattered / low on confidence like (apart from Perch, who was immense, and Cisse).

 

With all that being said though, I was still disappointed when I left the game. Felt like we should have dominated more.

 

I agree in the past few months we haven't played good football, but the early signs yesterday was that we were trying to. So I'm not sure how much Pardew was to blame yesterday. It was clear in the first 15 mins that they were instructive to keep it down and pass it. The player's confidence seemed to revert them to hitting it long the longer the game wore on though.

 

I'd agree with that on balance. It's the manager's job to try and instil and maintain that confidence though. Reverting to awful football isn't the answer.

 

I agree. But I'm just trying to be balanced in my opinion. It was frustrating viewing yesterday. Initially I'd say it was the players fault for resorting to long ball / deep defending, but Pardew should have sorted it. What I'm getting at though, is that it was clear that our game plan was  initially to try and play "proper" football, so I'm not on the "Pardew sets up to play long ball" bandwagon just yet.

 

The problem is not what we initially are set up to do, any mug can get this team playing decent fotball - look at the players in the starting elleven. It oozes quality.

The crux is what we do/resort to once we are one-goal up. We stop playing fotball and just defend/hoof. Pardew takes the foot off the pedal as soon as we get a lead, to salvage a result.

 

I do agree that we would probably have less pressure on us and consequently could have kept it more on the deck if we were comfortably mid-table.

Now we find ourselves 6th and questions are being asked that just wouldnt have if we were - say - 12th. Pardew clearly looks uncomfortable answering them and its getting hot in the kitchen.

 

But being able to handle success and build on it is what separates good managers from the bad/average ones. An average one can have a good season, but then it tapers off.  Pardew is a good fit for a mid-table club and as long as questions about europe arent being asked, he can do a decent job.

 

The thing is, with the players we have signed, we can do and do much better than mid-table. So I am starting to wonder if the club and the players are starting to outgrow the manager.

[Parky]

is it not just what he did at west ham though?  big lad up top, hard working wingers, get the ball forward as early as possible, under use genuinely top class footballers for some reason to the point of alienation (to come for hba), have a good season or two then when the wheels come off have no answer to how to stop it?

 

it all seems eerily similar to me

 

dave's post was spot on as well by the way, the good aspects of his approach are becoming more sporadic, that's all anyone is really saying

 

He also signed, and played, Yossi Benayoun, who was brilliant in that season where they finished mid-table and almost won the FA Cup.

 

I think the Benayoun card is a tad overplayed by YOU Nut.   This must be the 3rd time you've tried to slip it into this thread.

[Dr Venkman]

Very strange game yesterday. We started the game really well I thought (there was a definite emphasis on passing it around, and Krul and Williamson didn't hoof it in the first 15 mins at all), but as soon as we scored and the crowd got on Williamson's back for that insane moment in the first half, we seemed to lose confidence in our ability to pass it around. That being said, without playing well at all after that, we still could have easily scored another 3 or 4 goals.

 

All of the players did look shattered / low on confidence like (apart from Perch, who was immense, and Cisse).

 

With all that being said though, I was still disappointed when I left the game. Felt like we should have dominated more.

 

I agree in the past few months we haven't played good football, but the early signs yesterday was that we were trying to. So I'm not sure how much Pardew was to blame yesterday. It was clear in the first 15 mins that they were instructive to keep it down and pass it. The player's confidence seemed to revert them to hitting it long the longer the game wore on though.

 

I'd agree with that on balance. It's the manager's job to try and instil and maintain that confidence though. Reverting to awful football isn't the answer.

 

I agree. But I'm just trying to be balanced in my opinion. It was frustrating viewing yesterday. Initially I'd say it was the players fault for resorting to long ball / deep defending, but Pardew should have sorted it. What I'm getting at though, is that it was clear that our game plan was  initially to try and play "proper" football, so I'm not on the "Pardew sets up to play long ball" bandwagon just yet.

 

I think performances like Norwich and Arsenal highlight why we should be training in a way that encourages football based on passing and moving. We tried to do it at Arsenal and essentially got nowhere and we tried to do it yesterday but stopped after 15 minutes. If the players were doing it day in day out they wouldnt look so bloody clueless on the odd occasion that Pardew decides he wants us to pass it about a bit.

[Guest Deadmau5]

Arsenal only managed a 2nd via an error

 

very good

 

How do you disagree?

 

Mate, we got run over and were lucky only to concede 2. Anything other than an arsenal win would have been daylight robbery.

[Optimistic Nut]

is it not just what he did at west ham though?  big lad up top, hard working wingers, get the ball forward as early as possible, under use genuinely top class footballers for some reason to the point of alienation (to come for hba), have a good season or two then when the wheels come off have no answer to how to stop it?

 

it all seems eerily similar to me

 

dave's post was spot on as well by the way, the good aspects of his approach are becoming more sporadic, that's all anyone is really saying

 

He also signed, and played, Yossi Benayoun, who was brilliant in that season where they finished mid-table and almost won the FA Cup.

 

I think the Benayoun card is a tad overplayed by YOU Nut.   This must be the 3rd time you've tried to slip it into this thread.

 

Because people keep bringing up Tevez/Mascherano (not by name but it's obvious who people are referring to), but fail to mention he signed this lad and he was brilliant to watch.

[Jayson]

Arsenal only managed a 2nd via an error

 

very good

 

How do you disagree?

 

Mate, we got run over and were lucky only to concede 2. Anything other than an arsenal win would have been daylight robbery.

 

Because blocking chances is lucky for a defence? Strange pov really.

[colinmk]

classic NO forum "debate" going on again:

 

Group A: results have been good, performances poor and ultimately that's likely to lead to poorer results unless pardew changes his tactics and selections in the long run...

Group B: we're 6th man, you can't criticize pardew for results, it's a disgrace to even think of that

Group A: agree that results are good, saying that in future they're likely to not be good anymore

Group B: but results are good, we're 6th man

 

repeat until pardew is fired

 

You're missing group C : Get rid, we've seen through the flim flam.

 

[Parky]

I knew Pards was defensive when he carried on playing 442 when it was clear we have shit/unthreatening wingers and they are mainly there to cover the fullbacks. That was months ago. Then he tried to play Raylor RM for a bit while Hatem was staring vacantly onto the pitch watching his life drift by. Then he's bought Cisse to play with Ba but we still don't have wingers who can provide the ammo, neither do we have two proper DM's (Cabaye even to the idle observer isn't a deep midfielder - he has so much more to his game than that). So, Pards continues with this hodgepotch stubbornly when it is clear the players we have (or did have) were suited to a 433 or a high 451. I feel sorry for him cause like in Lost he's still pressing the button and watching the numbers change and has decided to not leave the bunker.

[mrmojorisin75]

I knew Pards was defensive when he carried on playing 442 when it was clear we have shit/unthreatening wingers and they are mainly there to cover the fullbacks. That was months ago. Then he tried to play Raylor RM for a bit while Hatem was staring vacantly onto the pitch watching his life drift by. Then he's bought Cisse to play with Ba but we still don't have wingers who can provide the ammo, neither do we have two proper DM's (Cabaye even to the idle observer isn't a deep midfielder - he has so much more to his game than that). So, Pards continues with this hodgepotch stubbornly when it is clear the players we have (or did have) were suited to a 433 or a high 451. I feel sorry for him cause like in Lost he's still pressing the button and watching the numbers change and has decided to not leave the bunker.

 

in my heart of heart i guess i know this too but still feel he's got to be given more time to change it, experience tells me he won't though

[Guest Dontooner]

I fail to understand how the people who see positives in our play this season (and there have been many) can't also see that those positives are getting more sporadic as the season goes on. If it was the other way around then everyone would be delighted, but it's not and that's the concern. On the whole we're actually devolving in terms of the style of play - something that Pardew himself has championed as a key point to watch this season. Yes, there have been injuries, suspensions and the ACoN to deal with but none of these are things that other clubs don't also have to deal with.

 

Qualifying for Europe would be an amazing success, but as others have suggested it might be way too early for us as a club.

 

I don't think that the negative Pardew posts are as objective and rational as they should be - certainly not as rational as your post.  Quite quickly they degenerate into either just plain abuse and name calling of Pardew or posts suggesting that he is clueless, tactically naive and a PR man (or all of the above).

On the contrary, the opposite views are more of different personalities accumulated over a life time of experience which all defer from one another. I find most of the arguements in this thread quite reasonable except for a few posters, however there must be a sticking point to this debate or it would not be so vigorously discussed. Only time will tell, as both parties think they are neutral or logically superior than the other.

[colinmk]

I knew Pards was defensive when he carried on playing 442 when it was clear we have shit/unthreatening wingers and they are mainly there to cover the fullbacks. That was months ago. Then he tried to play Raylor RM for a bit while Hatem was staring vacantly onto the pitch watching his life drift by. Then he's bought Cisse to play with Ba but we still don't have wingers who can provide the ammo, neither do we have two proper DM's (Cabaye even to the idle observer isn't a deep midfielder - he has so much more to his game than that). So, Pards continues with this hodgepotch stubbornly when it is clear the players we have (or did have) were suited to a 433 or a high 451. I feel sorry for him cause like in Lost he's still pressing the button and watching the numbers change and has decided to not leave the bunker.

 

in my heart of heart i guess i know this too but still feel he's got to be given more time to change it, experience tells me he won't though

 

I think he has earnt his time with the points tally he's accumulated this season. Like you guys, I know he isn't the man for the job long term and personally I won't be sad to see him go as I just don't like or rate the guy(opinion hasn't changed from day 1). I do wish him luck though as he is our manager and if he proves me wrong fair play to him.

[Dave]

I dont think our overall play has changed that much, Ba has just become less prolific recently & Krul's long balls have started wearing on people overtime. Defensively not much has changed & thats Pardews main strength. In our last 3 Norwich couldnt score, Arsenal only managed a 2nd via an error, Sunderland needed a pen to score.

 

If our overall play hasn't changed much then all the arguments about Pardew playing a better brand of football then he who cannot be named are utter bollocks.

[Guest BooBoo]

As we get to the business end of the season, there's very little chance of us opening up and playing more exciting football. It's all about results now and I can see us playing in a similar cagey style for the run in.

 

I'd be lying if I said I really enjoy our games. I dont on the whole and yesterday would have made grim viewing for the neutrals. Pardew is clearly under pressure to get us into Europe after being up there all year, but he's not being assisted by a collective loss of form by a number of his blue chip players. Ba has been poor since the CON, Tiote has had an average season, Cabaye is struggling to get any sort of form together and through nobody's fault but the purse holders, we are being forced to play the clearly nervous and limited Williamson.

[Dr Venkman]

Very strange game yesterday. We started the game really well I thought (there was a definite emphasis on passing it around, and Krul and Williamson didn't hoof it in the first 15 mins at all), but as soon as we scored and the crowd got on Williamson's back for that insane moment in the first half, we seemed to lose confidence in our ability to pass it around. That being said, without playing well at all after that, we still could have easily scored another 3 or 4 goals.

 

All of the players did look shattered / low on confidence like (apart from Perch, who was immense, and Cisse).

 

With all that being said though, I was still disappointed when I left the game. Felt like we should have dominated more.

 

I agree in the past few months we haven't played good football, but the early signs yesterday was that we were trying to. So I'm not sure how much Pardew was to blame yesterday. It was clear in the first 15 mins that they were instructive to keep it down and pass it. The player's confidence seemed to revert them to hitting it long the longer the game wore on though.

 

I'd agree with that on balance. It's the manager's job to try and instil and maintain that confidence though. Reverting to awful football isn't the answer.

 

I agree. But I'm just trying to be balanced in my opinion. It was frustrating viewing yesterday. Initially I'd say it was the players fault for resorting to long ball / deep defending, but Pardew should have sorted it. What I'm getting at though, is that it was clear that our game plan was  initially to try and play "proper" football, so I'm not on the "Pardew sets up to play long ball" bandwagon just yet.

 

I think performances like Norwich and Arsenal highlight why we should be training in a way that encourages football based on passing and moving. We tried to do it at Arsenal and essentially got nowhere and we tried to do it yesterday but stopped after 15 minutes. If the players were doing it day in day out they wouldnt look so bloody clueless on the odd occasion that Pardew decides he wants us to pass it about a bit.

 

How exactly do you know what we do in training?

 

I know that we spend 4 days out of 5 on stopping the other team. I'm speculating that we don't spend much time if any working on passing and moving, because we don't do it on a match day.

[Guest BooBoo]

If I was in a position where I knew I had to play Simpson and Williamson then I'd be spending the majority of training on defending tbh.

[Guest neesy111]

If I was in a position where I knew I had to play Simpson and Williamson then I'd be spending the majority of training on defending tbh.

 

True, but lumping it forward is just so counteractive unless you have target men upfront.  1st 20 mins of the 2nd half was all brought upon our inability to keep possession and then try a long ball or pass, it was only when Shola and Santon came on we started to get a grip on the game again.