Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Not sure if that's fair. Messi would be a mug to press by himself. The decision of Argentina not to press Germany higher up the pitch was a collective one. Its the Final, you are the Captain, the best player in the world, you don't walk around and stand still for the vast majority of the game as he did. Not unless you're either injured or your ego is so high you believe just by being on the pitch your presence is enough to win the game, help your team mates and destroy the opposition. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Why is Zidane better than him? Because he scored two goals in a World Cup final where he was suspended for the whole knockout stage? F*ck that, Messi has won more CLs, more world player of the years, scored more goals, gave more assists. This World Cup is only thing that matters and dominating club level ( which is a higher level than international nowadays) means f*ck all. Zidane won 1 CL in his entire career, Messi has 3 and he's only 26.... But nah don't matter coz he won a world cup. The thing that makes me laugh most of all, people acting like one game changes everything.... Balon D'ors, 3 CLs and multiple other awards which people like Zidane can't compete with... But nah don't matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Why is Zidane better than him? Because he scored two goals in a World Cup final where he was suspended for the whole knockout stage? F*ck that, Messi has won more CLs, more world player of the years, scored more goals, gave more assists. This World Cup is only thing that matters and dominating club level ( which is a higher level than international nowadays) means f*ck all. Zidane won 1 CL in his entire career, Messi has 3 and he's only 26.... But nah don't matter coz he won a world cup. The thing that makes me laugh most of all, people acting like one game changes everything.... Balon D'ors, 3 CLs and multiple other awards which people like Zidane can't compete with... But nah don't matter. Phill Neville won more than Shearer... who was the best player? Shit argument I know, but for me its about indivdiualsim at the end of the day when debating these things as that's what we are building here, the individual. Not a team, not a match, not a season, but a player. Messi is undoubtedly fucking great, the best player of his generation and one of the best of all-time, but as individuals go, for me Zidane was better. I can't explain how or why, he just was. Its the way he played the game, got himself involved, how he applied himself during games, be them meaningless games or WC Finals. Its about aesthetics and style too, well for me anyway. Not that I know owt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 @mole I'm not disagreeing, but the biggest problem with Messi is that he has failed to achieve success outside of Barcelona. Barcelona has had possibly the best side I've ever seen at club level and big parts to it was because of Messi but they also had Iniesta, Xavi, Dani, and other players who at their best were the best in their positions of their generation. Still he's the best player I've seen and I'd rate him above real Ronaldo, Zidane and Ronaldinho. He's just no Pele Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Anyway, regardless, that was a very disappointing 120 minutes from Messi. He didn't have a mare, but he didn't produce either and that is not waht you expect from a player as great as he is in the World Cup Final, a game of such huge importance to him as an individual and his country. Its not like he choked either or bottled the occasion, he just dodn't really do owt. Its as if he didn't even play really, so anonymous was he. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Away Toon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Has anbody seen the distance covered stat for the players in the final, it would be interesting to see how Messi compares Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I just hate that WC success gets so much praise than beaten the best in the CL, which is a much higher level these days especially. Also while we are on the subject of Zidane being better, what a lot of people have forgotten is the very same Zidane was kept quiet in a CL final by Paul Lambert. Because it didn't happen on the international stage it doesn't matter apparently..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Why is Zidane better than him? Because he scored two goals in a World Cup final where he was suspended for the whole knockout stage? F*ck that, Messi has won more CLs, more world player of the years, scored more goals, gave more assists. This World Cup is only thing that matters and dominating club level ( which is a higher level than international nowadays) means f*ck all. Zidane won 1 CL in his entire career, Messi has 3 and he's only 26.... But nah don't matter coz he won a world cup. The thing that makes me laugh most of all, people acting like one game changes everything.... Balon D'ors, 3 CLs and multiple other awards which people like Zidane can't compete with... But nah don't matter. Phill Neville won more than Shearer... who was the best player? Shit argument I know, but for me its about indivdiualsim at the end of the day when debating these things as that's what we are building here, the individual. Not a team, not a match, not a season, but a player. Messi is undoubtedly fucking great, the best player of his generation and one of the best of all-time, but as individuals go, for me Zidane was better. I can't explain how or why, he just was. Its the way he played the game, got himself involved, how he applied himself during games, be them meaningless games or WC Finals. Its about aesthetics and style too, well for me anyway. Not that I know owt Well maybe now Messi isn't involved as much but if you judge him from his peak of 08-12 he used to be involved a lot more in the build up and run around a lot more. Since he started regularly getting sick on the pitch he hasn't been able to run around as much IMO Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Has anbody seen the distance covered stat for the players in the final, it would be interesting to see how Messi compares Messi 10.7km. Schweinsteiger 15.3km. Muller 15.1km. Aguero who didn't play the first 45mins ran 8.3km. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Has anbody seen the distance covered stat for the players in the final, it would be interesting to see how Messi compares Haven't seen it for the final but in all the other games Messi was way down on the rest of the team so I would presume it was similar again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 I just hate that WC success gets so much praise than beaten the best in the CL, which is a much higher level these days especially. Also while we are on the subject of Zidane being better, what a lot of people have forgotten is the very same Zidane was kept quiet in a CL final by Paul Lambert. Because it didn't happen on the international stage it doesn't matter apparently..... It's because the WC is the hardest competition to win, doesn't happen every year, doesn't happen with the players you play every day with. So you have to raise your game as well as the team to succeed. It's the biggest stage of them all, it's really as simple as that. The quality isn't the highest but the difficulty to win it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Again... You are the best player in the world, one of the greatest of all time, you are the Captain of your side in the World Cup Final and for 120 minutes you walk around the pitch as if you're taking a walk along the beach or a country lane with the wife then sorry, but that's not the stamp of someone who is the greatest of all time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Debatable, for example that Germany team was mostly Bayern players and they were battered by Real Madrid. I get the every 4 years thing but still.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Why is Zidane better than him? Because he scored two goals in a World Cup final where he was suspended for the whole knockout stage? F*ck that, Messi has won more CLs, more world player of the years, scored more goals, gave more assists. This World Cup is only thing that matters and dominating club level ( which is a higher level than international nowadays) means f*ck all. Zidane won 1 CL in his entire career, Messi has 3 and he's only 26.... But nah don't matter coz he won a world cup. The thing that makes me laugh most of all, people acting like one game changes everything.... Balon D'ors, 3 CLs and multiple other awards which people like Zidane can't compete with... But nah don't matter. Phill Neville won more than Shearer... who was the best player? Shit argument I know, but for me its about indivdiualsim at the end of the day when debating these things as that's what we are building here, the individual. Not a team, not a match, not a season, but a player. Messi is undoubtedly fucking great, the best player of his generation and one of the best of all-time, but as individuals go, for me Zidane was better. I can't explain how or why, he just was. Its the way he played the game, got himself involved, how he applied himself during games, be them meaningless games or WC Finals. Its about aesthetics and style too, well for me anyway. Not that I know owt Zidane's elegance and vision was second to none. Even more than the '98 final, I'll never forget a supposedly past-it Zidane utterly dominate Brazil in 2006, showing those upstarts how the game is played. Zidane's game was much more than goals and assists anyway. It was often times the first pass in a series that led to a goal. I have a hard time saying that Zidane was the better player, but I sure as hell liked watching him play more. They are definitely in the conversation for me, however. Both brilliant and two of the best I have ever seen. But for those I have actually seen play (and not just highlights, which is the only reason I would exclude Pele) Maradona and then Cruyff still rank as the the top 2, although I was a kid and could well be giving them brownie points for nostalgia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Again... You are the best player in the world, one of the greatest of all time, you are the Captain of your side in the World Cup Final and for 120 minutes you walk around the pitch as if you're taking a walk along the beach or a country lane with the wife then sorry, but that's not the stamp of someone who is the greatest of all time. I don't disagree with you really, but that's just the way he plays now. He waits for the ball to come to him and then tries to use his pace and skill to beat defenders, like the way he burned Hummels with pace on a few occasions in the first half Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane was more elegant but so is Iniesta is he better than Messi too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinny Green Balls Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side. In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side. In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil. Exactly, the World Cup is too narrow a field to judge it by imo. By the way this is no defence of Messi, just a point i'm making in general. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Anyway i disagree with the crux of the argument, i can respect people prefer Zidane because he was more aesthetically pleasing. I personally look for different things when analyzing greatness but i can respect everyone's opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo. For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side. In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil. Exactly, the World Cup is too narrow a field to judge it by imo. By the way this is no defence of Messi, just a point i'm making in general. I respect that, but for me and many others the World Cup is the biggest stage of them all, the stage where the greatest of all times all played above their levels and won no matter who the opposition were. I see Messi as the best of his generation, but like I said how can he be considered the best of all times if he won't even be considered the best to play for his country? I for one thought he was resting for the World Cup, but it's quite clear something isn't right, while HTT is a bit harsh I agree with a lot having watched every Barcelona game this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Craig-NUFC Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 http://i.imgur.com/k0XRVov.png Probably already common knowledge, but just chucking it in the mix. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest firetotheworks Posted July 14, 2014 Share Posted July 14, 2014 Zidane better than Messi The only other player anywhere near him in our generation of watching football is Ronaldo before his injury imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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