Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Ste]

I rate Cristiano Ronaldo higher but that's taking nothing from Messi. He's sublime when he's in full flow.

 

He did well in the last month but nowhere near what you would expect from someone in that very top bracket that few players ever get to.

[themanupstairs]

This "conserving energy" thing really boils my p*ss, what for the whole f***ing game? He simply walked around for 90% of the match only ever coming alive when the ball reached his feet. This from the world's best player at current and one of the world's best players ever, is nothing short of a joke. There was no desire whatsoever to go look for the ball, to make space to receive the ball and to get into the game.

 

I genuinely believe that in his own mind at least, because he has achieved so much and is so good, that these days, he doesn't have to do much, that things will all fall into place, and that is why he hasn't yet surpassed the likes of Pele and Maradona.

 

I was staggered to see him leave the group get together after full-time, as if he was above all that and didn't need geeing up. That to me screamed 'Primadona' and that's what he has become.

 

He was a passenger last night, someone who put in 10% of the effort in a game where he was needed most by his team-mates and those well wishers who wanted to see him win the greatest honour of the lot, the World Cup.

 

Many a time he made no effort whatsoever to close down a man or to squeeze play and that's the very basics. He should be embarrassed by his half arsed efforts last night.

 

Ronaldo doesn't track back or press like crazy but he works his socks off to be in the game. Look at Suarez and Robben and even our own Rooney. There is no excuse.

 

He is the Captain of his country in the World Cup Final, he is the world's greatest player, one of the greatest of all time, and yet he allowed German centre-backs to bring the ball out of defence and waltz past him as if he wasn't there. If I'm his team-mate looking at that I'd not only be p*ssed of, I'd be massively disappointed.

 

The world's best? Easily of his generation, but I'd put Pele, Maradona, Zidane and Cruyff all above him in the list of all-time greatest players.

 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Roberto Baggio in '94 was amazing, he was literally the only real star quality about Italy other than the aging Baresi. His performances and individualism pretty much took Italy to the Final and although I was rooting for Brazil, it was a shame Baggio missed his penalty and especially in the fashion that he did.

[Beren]

Not sure if that's fair. Messi would be a mug to press by himself. The decision of Argentina not to press Germany higher up the pitch was a collective one.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I rate Cristiano Ronaldo higher but that's taking nothing from Messi. He's sublime when he's in full flow.

 

He did well in the last month but nowhere near what you would expect from someone in that very top bracket that few players ever get to.

 

CRonaldo is arguably the better all-rounder in genral, he is certainly the better athlete and maybe a more rounded finisher, but in terms of vision, flair and skills etc. Messi is undoubtedly, for me anyway, the better player and has no parallel in that regards at current. Suarez isn't far off, but he's still not at Messi's level.

 

That said Ronaldinho had more flair, better vision and more skill than Messi as did the orginal Ronaldo in many ways. Messi has or did have an amazing mentality though and supreme confidence and has of course had the huge benefit of playing in a side as equal as he was as an individual in Barcelona.

 

I don't want to take anything away from Messi but put him in a Juve side or a Man Utd side over the years and he wouldn't be the player he is at Barcelona. Xavi and Iniesta are up there as two of the greatest players of all time themselves and in Guardiola there is a coach equally up there with the greatest of all time. That's 3 of the very best alongside you, to help you.

 

I do hope Messi can go on and win a WC and star on the biggest stage of them all to finally eclipse the likes of Pele et al, but I fear his time has passed and in large, that has mainly been down to himself and his attitude towards the Final at least. Sorry, but I put more into my poxy 7-a-side games on a Tuesday night in a game that is literally worth fuck all other than severe body ache all over for the following days after. There is no excuse in the way he applied himself.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Not sure if that's fair. Messi would be a mug to press by himself. The decision of Argentina not to press Germany higher up the pitch was a collective one.

 

Its the Final, you are the Captain, the best player in the world, you don't  walk around and stand still for the vast majority of the game as he did. Not unless you're either injured or your ego is so high you believe just by being on the pitch your presence is enough to win the game, help your team mates and destroy the opposition.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Why is Zidane better than him? Because he scored two goals in a World Cup final where he was suspended for the whole knockout stage?

 

F*ck that, Messi has won more CLs, more world player of the years, scored more goals, gave more assists. This World Cup is only thing that matters and dominating club level ( which is a higher level than international nowadays) means f*ck all.

 

Zidane won 1 CL in his entire career, Messi has 3 and he's only 26.... But nah don't matter coz he won a world cup.

 

The thing that makes me laugh most of all, people acting like one game changes everything.... Balon D'ors, 3 CLs and multiple other awards which people like Zidane can't compete with... But nah don't matter.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Why is Zidane better than him? Because he scored two goals in a World Cup final where he was suspended for the whole knockout stage?

 

F*ck that, Messi has won more CLs, more world player of the years, scored more goals, gave more assists. This World Cup is only thing that matters and dominating club level ( which is a higher level than international nowadays) means f*ck all.

 

Zidane won 1 CL in his entire career, Messi has 3 and he's only 26.... But nah don't matter coz he won a world cup.

 

The thing that makes me laugh most of all, people acting like one game changes everything.... Balon D'ors, 3 CLs and multiple other awards which people like Zidane can't compete with... But nah don't matter.

 

Phill Neville won more than Shearer... who was the best player?

 

Shit argument I know, but for me its about indivdiualsim at the end of the day when debating these things as that's what we are building here, the individual. Not a team, not a match, not a season, but a player.

 

Messi is undoubtedly fucking great, the best player of his generation and one of the best of all-time, but as individuals go, for me Zidane was better. I can't explain how or why, he just was.  Its the way he played the game, got himself involved, how he applied himself during games, be them meaningless games or WC Finals.

 

Its about aesthetics and style too, well for me anyway.

 

Not that I know owt

[Flip]

@mole

 

I'm not disagreeing, but the biggest problem with Messi is that he has failed to achieve success outside of Barcelona. Barcelona has had possibly the best side I've ever seen at club level and big parts to it was because of Messi but they also had Iniesta, Xavi, Dani, and other players who at their best were the best in their positions of their generation. Still he's the best player I've seen and I'd rate him above real Ronaldo, Zidane and Ronaldinho. He's just no Pele

[Guest bimpy474]

You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo.

[Flip]

You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo.

 

For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold.  So yes he has ''failed'' at international level.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Anyway, regardless, that was a very disappointing 120 minutes from Messi. He didn't have a mare, but he didn't produce either and that is not waht you expect from a player as great as he is in the World Cup Final, a game of such huge importance to him as an individual and his country. Its not like he choked either or bottled the occasion, he just dodn't really do owt. Its as if he didn't even play really, so anonymous was he.

[Away Toon]

Has anbody seen the distance covered stat for the players in the final, it would be interesting to see how Messi compares

[Mole_Toonfan]

I just hate that WC success gets so much praise than beaten the best in the CL, which is a much higher level these days especially.

 

Also while we are on the subject of Zidane being better, what a lot of people have forgotten is the very same Zidane was kept quiet in a CL final by Paul Lambert.

 

Because it didn't happen on the international stage it doesn't matter apparently.....

[triggs]

Why is Zidane better than him? Because he scored two goals in a World Cup final where he was suspended for the whole knockout stage?

 

F*ck that, Messi has won more CLs, more world player of the years, scored more goals, gave more assists. This World Cup is only thing that matters and dominating club level ( which is a higher level than international nowadays) means f*ck all.

 

Zidane won 1 CL in his entire career, Messi has 3 and he's only 26.... But nah don't matter coz he won a world cup.

 

The thing that makes me laugh most of all, people acting like one game changes everything.... Balon D'ors, 3 CLs and multiple other awards which people like Zidane can't compete with... But nah don't matter.

 

Phill Neville won more than Shearer... who was the best player?

 

Shit argument I know, but for me its about indivdiualsim at the end of the day when debating these things as that's what we are building here, the individual. Not a team, not a match, not a season, but a player.

 

Messi is undoubtedly fucking great, the best player of his generation and one of the best of all-time, but as individuals go, for me Zidane was better. I can't explain how or why, he just was.  Its the way he played the game, got himself involved, how he applied himself during games, be them meaningless games or WC Finals.

 

Its about aesthetics and style too, well for me anyway.

 

Not that I know owt

Well maybe now Messi isn't involved as much but if you judge him from his peak of 08-12  he used to be involved a lot more in the build up and run around a lot more. Since he started regularly getting sick on the pitch he hasn't been able to run around as much IMO

[Flip]

Has anbody seen the distance covered stat for the players in the final, it would be interesting to see how Messi compares

 

Messi 10.7km. Schweinsteiger 15.3km. Muller 15.1km.

Aguero who didn't play the first 45mins ran 8.3km.

 

[triggs]

Has anbody seen the distance covered stat for the players in the final, it would be interesting to see how Messi compares

Haven't seen it for the final but in all the other games Messi was way down on the rest of the team so I would presume it was similar again

[Flip]

I just hate that WC success gets so much praise than beaten the best in the CL, which is a much higher level these days especially.

 

Also while we are on the subject of Zidane being better, what a lot of people have forgotten is the very same Zidane was kept quiet in a CL final by Paul Lambert.

 

Because it didn't happen on the international stage it doesn't matter apparently.....

 

It's because the WC is the hardest competition to win, doesn't happen every year, doesn't happen with the players you play every day with. So you have to raise your game as well as the team to succeed. It's the biggest stage of them all, it's really as simple as that. The quality isn't the highest but the difficulty to win it is.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Again...

 

You are the best player in the world, one of the greatest of all time, you are the Captain of your side in the World Cup Final and for 120 minutes you walk around the pitch as if you're taking a walk along the beach or a country lane with the wife then sorry, but that's not the stamp of someone who is the greatest of all time.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Debatable, for example that Germany team was mostly Bayern players and they were battered by Real Madrid.

 

I get the every 4 years thing but still....

[Guest bimpy474]

You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo.

 

For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold.  So yes he has ''failed'' at international level.

 

That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like.

[Vinny Green Balls]

Why is Zidane better than him? Because he scored two goals in a World Cup final where he was suspended for the whole knockout stage?

 

F*ck that, Messi has won more CLs, more world player of the years, scored more goals, gave more assists. This World Cup is only thing that matters and dominating club level ( which is a higher level than international nowadays) means f*ck all.

 

Zidane won 1 CL in his entire career, Messi has 3 and he's only 26.... But nah don't matter coz he won a world cup.

 

The thing that makes me laugh most of all, people acting like one game changes everything.... Balon D'ors, 3 CLs and multiple other awards which people like Zidane can't compete with... But nah don't matter.

 

Phill Neville won more than Shearer... who was the best player?

 

Shit argument I know, but for me its about indivdiualsim at the end of the day when debating these things as that's what we are building here, the individual. Not a team, not a match, not a season, but a player.

 

Messi is undoubtedly fucking great, the best player of his generation and one of the best of all-time, but as individuals go, for me Zidane was better. I can't explain how or why, he just was.  Its the way he played the game, got himself involved, how he applied himself during games, be them meaningless games or WC Finals.

 

Its about aesthetics and style too, well for me anyway.

 

Not that I know owt

 

Zidane's elegance and vision was second to none.  Even more than the '98 final, I'll never forget a supposedly past-it Zidane utterly dominate Brazil in 2006, showing those upstarts how the game is played.  Zidane's game was much more than goals and assists anyway.  It was often times the first pass in a series that led to a goal. 

 

I have a hard time saying that Zidane was the better player, but I sure as hell liked watching him play more.  They are definitely in the conversation for me, however.  Both brilliant and two of the best I have ever seen.  But for those I have actually seen play (and not just highlights, which is the only reason I would exclude Pele) Maradona and then Cruyff still rank as the the top 2, although I was a kid and could well be giving them brownie points for nostalgia.

[triggs]

Again...

 

You are the best player in the world, one of the greatest of all time, you are the Captain of your side in the World Cup Final and for 120 minutes you walk around the pitch as if you're taking a walk along the beach or a country lane with the wife then sorry, but that's not the stamp of someone who is the greatest of all time.

I don't disagree with you really, but that's just the way he plays now. He waits for the ball to come to him and then tries to use his pace and skill to beat defenders, like the way he burned Hummels with pace on a few occasions in the first half

[Mole_Toonfan]

Zidane was more elegant but so is Iniesta is he better than Messi too?

[Vinny Green Balls]

You don't have to win a World Cup to be the world best footballer, what if you're born in a country like Liberia (Goerge Weah) or Northern Ireland (George Best). Using the World Cup as a barometer is unfair imo.

 

For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold.  So yes he has ''failed'' at international level.

 

That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like.

 

 

not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side.  In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil.