Demba Ba (now retired)

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Ba and Cisse are too similar, neither has a good enough all round game to be the one that drops off and does the extra running with moments of creativity and guile. They're both only suited to the No.9 role.

 

I think they are totally different myself. Ba is more akin to your Shearer with Cisse being more akin to your Owen. Ba has the better all-round game, Cisse is more of the finisher and player to play on the last man. I still think they can play alongside each other as a twosome even in a 4-4-2 to good effect but we would need to play with wingers and have to change the way we play considerably which is what we would have to do regardless if we are to see the best of both together.

[Guest malandro]

The "flick a switch and up we go" attitude is what I'm questioning. There's more to turning an entire season around than just changing a formation. We were 6th going into the West Brom game, high on confidence and well motivation which both obviously lends themselves to the kind of football we briefly played. It's the complete opposite now, like when Keegan's teams lost motivation at the end of a season and the attacking football fell short.

 

While Pardew is desperate for results he's not going to change to a formation he almost definitely only remembers as the one we lost 4-0 with. His defensive minded approach doesn't want attacking football if it might lead to a big defeat.

 

Agree. The problem is far deeper than formation. Sticking BA out wide isn't going to make much difference now we have lost momentum and confidence. Unity will be next to go if we carry on losing. Bad management at every level of the club can't be fixed by flicking a switch.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

By the way, I'd love to know what goes on in training with the forwards and just what kind of coaching the two receive. I remember KK working with Shearer and Sir Les with Shearer being the one to peel away, to switch to the flanks, and Ferdinand the one to drop deeper. He reasoned Shearer was a better crosser and Ferdinand was better dropping deep and using his pace and power to drive through the middle ala Everton away. And that's how they often played.

[Wullie]

HTT and Jack are both peddling a scornful line that "So going to 4-3-3 is the simple answer to our problems is it?!"

 

Whether it is or isn't, it actually genuinely was last season. The form and performances leading up to the West Brom game was similar to now, negative long ball guff (Villa, mackems, Wolves and Norwich at home were just awful). The five games following it were chalk and cheese, like 11 completely different players. Hardly worthy of such scorn to suggest that, erm, that might be our best way of playing.

 

You couldn't be more wrong Wullie, I absolutely favour 4-3-3 but I'm not sure playing Ba wide left is critical to that 4-3-3 which is what some are suggesting. I know Cisse scored a lot of goals last season playing central but so did Ba and who is to say Cisse wide left or even wide right wouldn't work just as well.

 

I say it because I've seen him play.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

HTT and Jack are both peddling a scornful line that "So going to 4-3-3 is the simple answer to our problems is it?!"

 

Whether it is or isn't, it actually genuinely was last season. The form and performances leading up to the West Brom game was similar to now, negative long ball guff (Villa, mackems, Wolves and Norwich at home were just awful). The five games following it were chalk and cheese, like 11 completely different players. Hardly worthy of such scorn to suggest that, erm, that might be our best way of playing.

 

You couldn't be more wrong Wullie, I absolutely favour 4-3-3 but I'm not sure playing Ba wide left is critical to that 4-3-3 which is what some are suggesting. I know Cisse scored a lot of goals last season playing central but so did Ba and who is to say Cisse wide left or even wide right wouldn't work just as well.

 

I say it because I've seen him play.

 

And how many times in that position? Not that I'm saying give him a chance there or that he could do well there.

[Guest malandro]

AP has to deal with where we are now, not where we were six months ago. The club stood still while football moved on, as it always does. The questions being asked have changed and last season's answers are probably out of date.  Pinning our hopes on 433 seems a tad blinkered.

 

[Mick]

AP has to deal with where we are now, not where we were six months ago. The club stood still while football moved on, as it always does. The questions being asked have changed and last season's answers are probably out of date.  Pinning our hopes on 433 seems a tad blinkered.

 

 

No more than the 4-4-2 which has us where we are.

[Stuy_O]

Ba and Cisse are too similar, neither has a good enough all round game to be the one that drops off and does the extra running with moments of creativity and guile. They're both only suited to the No.9 role.

 

I think they are totally different myself. Ba is more akin to your Shearer with Cisse being more akin to your Owen. Ba has the better all-round game, Cisse is more of the finisher and player to play on the last man. I still think they can play alongside each other as a twosome even in a 4-4-2 to good effect but we would need to play with wingers and have to change the way we play considerably which is what we would have to do regardless if we are to see the best of both together.

 

Agreed on the first, but still searching for a hint they can play together. Cisse is an out and out goal scorer of the purest definition. Whereas I think Ba has a better all round game and is more accomplished at deviating from his main position in search for the ball, Cisse has done this to little effect and I view it as a sign of desperation, given the absolute absence of service he's had, he's just a class striker with a good amount of pace aswell (although I thought he worked his socks off wednesday)

 

They have absolutely no fluency when playing together though, often going for the same delivery and getting in each other's road. They both yearn to play the main goalscorer role in the side and it looks imbalanced as a result. Not really complicated or anything, they just don't compliment each other as a pairing.

 

I get the impression Cisse really wants to do well at this club, he seems to love the supporters. Not saying that's not the case with Ba mind, I just sense it more with Papiss.

[taxfree]

Seriously. Hardly anyone of our players are performing. Who cares if one scores the goals, which atm "has us" way down the league. We need to mix it up to get people going, because as it is now simply does not work.

 

And of course it should be Cisse in the middle and Ba out wide. As argumented correctly for previously in this thread.

[Parky]

Ba and Cisse are too similar, neither has a good enough all round game to be the one that drops off and does the extra running with moments of creativity and guile. They're both only suited to the No.9 role.

 

I think they are totally different myself. Ba is more akin to your Shearer with Cisse being more akin to your Owen. Ba has the better all-round game, Cisse is more of the finisher and player to play on the last man. I still think they can play alongside each other as a twosome even in a 4-4-2 to good effect but we would need to play with wingers and have to change the way we play considerably which is what we would have to do regardless if we are to see the best of both together.

 

These are nuances. Back in the real world I see them both playing at the same depth, making similar runs and occupying the same attacking zone. We're not going to buy 2 quality wingers in this window (if we ever do) and we already have the core for a good 433. What we are missing is a Dembele type or a Michu, Ruiz or Dempsey to play the inventive support striker. Neither Drama Ba or Cisse can do that role justice or have the understanding to play that game.

[Parky]

By the way, I'd love to know what goes on in training with the forwards and just what kind of coaching the two receive. I remember KK working with Shearer and Sir Les with Shearer being the one to peel away, to switch to the flanks, and Ferdinand the one to drop deeper. He reasoned Shearer was a better crosser and Ferdinand was better dropping deep and using his pace and power to drive through the middle ala Everton away. And that's how they often played.

 

Think that worked cause Ferdinand is twice as quick as either of our front 2. The point you made about Bellamy earlier was spot on. He is the type that can play with one of either Ba or Cisse.

[Jack Flash]

It could be easily be argued that playing the 4-3-3 now is too late anyway. We beat 5 bottom half/mid-table teams with it last year partly because they played like bottom half/mid-table teams. We've almost passed that 5 winnable games in a row stage now and have mostly harder teams coming up which won't be as easy to play against.

[Mole_Toonfan]

HTT and Jack are both peddling a scornful line that "So going to 4-3-3 is the simple answer to our problems is it?!"

 

Whether it is or isn't, it actually genuinely was last season. The form and performances leading up to the West Brom game was similar to now, negative long ball guff (Villa, mackems, Wolves and Norwich at home were just awful). The five games following it were chalk and cheese, like 11 completely different players. Hardly worthy of such scorn to suggest that, erm, that might be our best way of playing.

 

You couldn't be more wrong Wullie, I absolutely favour 4-3-3 but I'm not sure playing Ba wide left is critical to that 4-3-3 which is what some are suggesting. I know Cisse scored a lot of goals last season playing central but so did Ba and who is to say Cisse wide left or even wide right wouldn't work just as well.

 

Because we have seen Cisse out wide on many occasions and he's god awful there, Ba is the only competent wide forward we have.

 

I agree on your point about interchanging forwards btw but there needs to be a starting position and Ba knows how to do the role.

 

Cisse looks clueless out there and rightfully so he's a poacher he should be in the middle or not playing at all.

[Mick]

It could be easily be argued that playing the 4-3-3 now is too late anyway. We beat 5 bottom half/mid-table teams with it last year partly because they played like bottom half/mid-table teams. We've almost passed that 5 winnable games in a row stage now and have mostly harder teams coming up which won't be as easy to play against.

 

How's that?

[Parky]

It could be easily be argued that playing the 4-3-3 now is too late anyway. We beat 5 bottom half/mid-table teams with it last year partly because they played like bottom half/mid-table teams. We've almost passed that 5 winnable games in a row stage now and have mostly harder teams coming up which won't be as easy to play against.

 

We need a system where we can keep the ball more and not get overrun in midfield. IMO that is the biggest reason we lose games.

[Jack Flash]

It could be easily be argued that playing the 4-3-3 now is too late anyway. We beat 5 bottom half/mid-table teams with it last year partly because they played like bottom half/mid-table teams. We've almost passed that 5 winnable games in a row stage now and have mostly harder teams coming up which won't be as easy to play against.

 

How's that?

 

We haven't got the players and we're playing better teams than we've just played. As Parky says, we need to be a bit more intelligent than that.

[Jagten]

It could be easily be argued that playing the 4-3-3 now is too late anyway. We beat 5 bottom half/mid-table teams with it last year partly because they played like bottom half/mid-table teams. We've almost passed that 5 winnable games in a row stage now and have mostly harder teams coming up which won't be as easy to play against.

 

How's that?

 

We haven't got the players and we're playing better teams than we've just played. As Parky says, we need to be a bit more intelligent than that.

What for? 4-3-3? We certainly don't have the players for 4-4-2.

[Parky]

It could be easily be argued that playing the 4-3-3 now is too late anyway. We beat 5 bottom half/mid-table teams with it last year partly because they played like bottom half/mid-table teams. We've almost passed that 5 winnable games in a row stage now and have mostly harder teams coming up which won't be as easy to play against.

 

How's that?

 

We haven't got the players and we're playing better teams than we've just played. As Parky says, we need to be a bit more intelligent than that.

What for? 4-3-3? We certainly don't have the players for 4-4-2.

 

It's suicide plaing 442 without wingers or infact good fullbacks. We lose the mf battle and we invite pressure onto what is now a ragged defence. Keep the ball has to be the first step to the revovery. If we give Wigan too much of the ball they will hurt us sooner or later in the game.

[Mole_Toonfan]

We don't have the players for 4-3-3 atm and we won't do until Cabaye and Ben Arfa is fit.

 

We have the players for 4-2-3-1 but does Pardew have the balls for that? again the how system argument was only really relevant at the start of the season at the moment we have so many injuries we can't really do anything more than what we did at Stoke except for maybe bring Marveaux in.

[Jack Flash]

It could be easily be argued that playing the 4-3-3 now is too late anyway. We beat 5 bottom half/mid-table teams with it last year partly because they played like bottom half/mid-table teams. We've almost passed that 5 winnable games in a row stage now and have mostly harder teams coming up which won't be as easy to play against.

 

How's that?

 

We haven't got the players and we're playing better teams than we've just played. As Parky says, we need to be a bit more intelligent than that.

What for? 4-3-3? We certainly don't have the players for 4-4-2.

 

Which is why we need to be more intelligent. Wigan ripped us apart once already while playing 4-3-3 and I hope Pardew has learne... We're doomed 

[Parky]

We don't have the players for 4-3-3 atm and we won't do until Cabaye and Ben Arfa is fit.

 

We have the players for 4-2-3-1 but does Pardew have the balls for that? again the how system argument was only really relevant at the start of the season at the moment we have so many injuries we can't really do anything more than what we did at Stoke except for maybe bring Marveaux in.

 

4231 would be alright.

 

.............Cisse....................

 

.Ba      .Marveux    .Obertan

 

.......Tiote.........Anita

 

The 3 drop back to make a 5 when we lose the ball.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Obertan is injured as well

 

But seriously in a normal world i would agree but Pardew is so defensive i can't see him doing it 

[Parky]

Obertan is injured as well

 

But seriously in a normal world i would agree but Pardew is so defensive i can't see him doing it 

 

If we play the silly football he's probably planning it's going to halve our chances of a win. Wigan are beatable at our place but we have to take it to them and no dropping off.

[Wullie]

People are talking about 4-3-3 like it's some batshit mental off the wall idea that may or may not come off. Err it's what nearly every side in the league plays.

[Parky]

People are talking about 4-3-3 like it's some batshit mental off the wall idea that may or may not come off. Err it's what nearly every side in the league plays.

 

It's so frustrating. Started dreaming about formations.