Demba Ba (now retired)

[Mole_Toonfan]

I'm talking about 4-3-3 at the start of the season when all the players were fit....

 

I realise now the problems are more than just the system not to mention because of all the injuries we have.

 

I'm not bothered about 4-4-2 or any of that at the moment because we can't use the right system due to injuries anyway.

 

I was talking about from the start of the season where we probably would have picked up points to make sure we was clear of this relegation battle we find ourselves in before the injuries came crashing down.

 

Also i don't assume nothing, don't put words in my mouth i know it won't magically fix anything now there's too many issues mainly due to injuries and squad depth.

 

But it would have fixed a lot if we started the season with the team that ended last year and we wouldn't be in this position now, we wouldn't probably be top 6 because of all the injuries but we definitely wouldn't be 2 points above the relegation zone.

 

I have said many times switching to 4-3-3 would not magically fix anything but hey continue with that crap if you must, my entire point is that when we had the players fit at the start of the season we would have picked up enough points to stay away from the mess we are currently in.

 

 

[loki679]

Mole

 

I'm sorry for Ba being Premier League Golden Boot winner is more important to you than us staying up i really am.

 

But don't be so short sighted, there's more to football than just who scores the goals and we are suffering as a team due to Ba being the central figure.

 

It is possible to be a crap team and still have someone scoring goals you know? Darren Bent has made a career out of scoring and dragging teams down with him.

 

At the moment we are a crap team and as long as Ba is the central figure and we restrict the rest of our star players we will remain one.

 

But hey if we go down you can console yourself with Ba's golden boot award.

 

 

 

at the bit in bold. You're the most short sighted person on here over this clichéd 4-3-3 nonsense. It's all you've talked about all season. You assume it'll transform us into a wondrous passing and free flowing attacking team but it just won't. Life isn't a computer game. Blaming Ba for managerial ineptness is also hugely short sighted but whatevz innit.

 

You stick with your dreams and fantasies of 4-3-3 and I'll live in the real world of Pardew being an idiot and Ba keeping us in the league.

 

How's that working out so far?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Yeah it has nothing to do with Ba moaning about playing on the left and Pardew succumbing to his every command and promising he will play up front even if it is detriment to the team.....

 

Restricting Cabaye, Cisse and Ben Arfa to the extent that they are useless..... Ben Arfa is so deep he might as well be a wing back, Cabaye is so deep he might as well be standing on Coloccini toes and Cisse is never in the box anymore due to playing to Ba.

 

This is whole system is designed to get the best out of Ba even if it's a detriment to the team as a whole it's no coincidence at all that he's scoring while the rest of the team is struggling.

 

Ba is scoring but we are going down in the process so whats the point.

 

Build the team around Ba and the overall football suffers as a whole, build the team around Cabaye, Ben Arfa and Cisse like we did at the end of last season and the football is fantastic even if it means Ba not scoring.

 

Ba might score like this but the team plays like shit and i for one don't accept one individual being bigger than the club.

 

 

This is spot on for me, I have to say.

 

I love Ba and I don't want him sold, but I do want him moved out left for the benefit of the whole team.

[Jack Flash]

Mole

 

I'm sorry for Ba being Premier League Golden Boot winner is more important to you than us staying up i really am.

 

But don't be so short sighted, there's more to football than just who scores the goals and we are suffering as a team due to Ba being the central figure.

 

It is possible to be a crap team and still have someone scoring goals you know? Darren Bent has made a career out of scoring and dragging teams down with him.

 

At the moment we are a crap team and as long as Ba is the central figure and we restrict the rest of our star players we will remain one.

 

But hey if we go down you can console yourself with Ba's golden boot award.

 

 

 

at the bit in bold. You're the most short sighted person on here over this clichéd 4-3-3 nonsense. It's all you've talked about all season. You assume it'll transform us into a wondrous passing and free flowing attacking team but it just won't. Life isn't a computer game. Blaming Ba for managerial ineptness is also hugely short sighted but whatevz innit.

 

You stick with your dreams and fantasies of 4-3-3 and I'll live in the real world of Pardew being an idiot and Ba keeping us in the league.

 

How's that working out so far?

 

Ask the idiot. From the Swansea game...

 

“We played 4-3-3, we were 4-3-3, Sammy was on the left hand side and joining with Demba. I thought he did a good job.

 

Shola came on at half-time and upped us again. We had our best spell when the two were together”.

[ujpest doza]

It's basically sacrificing all attacking play in order for Ba to get goals.

 

No team has every won a game playing 4-4-2?

 

Krul continually smashing it long is as big a problem as any tactical problem we have. Change that and other things will change. Or just blame Ba for everything?

 

4-4-2 is very much about partnerships isn't? We have a few problems there. The front 2 aren't an effective partnership, the midfield 2 aren't an effective partnership. Bit of width in a 4-4-2 is essential, are we getting crosses in from the left? No, are we getting crosses in from the right? No.

If the above was working, if the players were making it work there would be no debate.

 

I actually think playing two strikers centrally in the 4-4-2 system doesn't require there to be any kind of 'partnership', not as much is as required in a 4-3-3 or a 4-5-1 for example. Pairing two strikers up top is all about the service from wide and through the middle. Shearer and Sir Les both scored goals and got involved aplenty despite both playing up there in the number 9 position basically and that's because there was enough service for both to get some action if you like. 4-4-2 is such a basic system/formation you could put any two players together up front and both would get amongst the goals if crosses were coming in thick and fast or through balls were being played aplenty. 4-4-2 is in many ways is all about percentages which is why Pardew favours it but we are getting the percentages all wrong. How many crosses? How many through balls?

 

Fire in 20 crosses a game from either flank and your two front men will score or get a chance to score and when the ball breaks loose a midfielder is more than likely to get a goal or a chance to score too.

 

Play a ball behind or through 20 times a game and likewise.

 

We just hoof it and that's about it. Ba has done amazingly well to score as many as he has.

When Shearer and Ferdinand were a partnership we didn't really play a rigid 4-4-2 though, was more of a 4-3-3 really as Beardsley floated all over.

[Wullie]

Why is Ba the player who should be built around rather Cabaye or Cisse or Ben Arfa? Simply because he happens to have been scoring the most goals? 

 

Seems a very archaic view of the game to me.

 

The elephant in the room of course is that Ba isn't even playing well. 2 goals in his last 8 games won't keep us up any more than Cabaye's 2 in 8 or Cisse's 2 in 8.

[Guest JS]

I'm talking about 4-3-3 at the start of the season when all the players were fit....

 

I realise now the problems are more than just the system not to mention because of all the injuries we have.

 

I'm not bothered about 4-4-2 or any of that at the moment because we can't use the right system due to injuries anyway.

 

I was talking about from the start of the season where we probably would have picked up points to make sure we was clear of this relegation battle we find ourselves in before the injuries came crashing down.

 

Also i don't assume nothing, don't put words in my mouth i know it won't magically fix anything now there's too many issues mainly due to injuries and squad depth.

 

But it would have fixed a lot if we started the season with the team that ended last year and we wouldn't be in this position now, we wouldn't probably be top 6 because of all the injuries but we definitely wouldn't be 2 points above the relegation zone.

 

I have said many times switching to 4-3-3 would not magically fix anything but hey continue with that crap if you must, my entire point is that when we had the players fit at the start of the season we would have picked up enough points to stay away from the mess we are currently in.

 

 

[Mole_Toonfan]

Why is Ba the player who should be built around rather Cabaye or Cisse or Ben Arfa? Simply because he happens to have been scoring the most goals? 

 

Seems a very archaic view of the game to me.

 

The elephant in the room of course is that Ba isn't even playing well. 2 goals in his last 8 games won't keep us up any more than Cabaye's 2 in 8 or Cisse's 2 in 8.

 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Yeah it has nothing to do with Ba moaning about playing on the left and Pardew succumbing to his every command and promising he will play up front even if it is detriment to the team.....

 

Restricting Cabaye, Cisse and Ben Arfa to the extent that they are useless..... Ben Arfa is so deep he might as well be a wing back, Cabaye is so deep he might as well be standing on Coloccini toes and Cisse is never in the box anymore due to playing to Ba.

 

This is whole system is designed to get the best out of Ba even if it's a detriment to the team as a whole it's no coincidence at all that he's scoring while the rest of the team is struggling.

 

Ba is scoring but we are going down in the process so whats the point.

 

Build the team around Ba and the overall football suffers as a whole, build the team around Cabaye, Ben Arfa and Cisse like we did at the end of last season and the football is fantastic even if it means Ba not scoring.

 

Ba might score like this but the team plays like s*** and i for one don't accept one individual being bigger than the club.

 

 

 

 

 

He hasn't *moaned about playing on the left and even when we went 4-3-3 last season he didn't exactly play on the left. The likes of Cabaye and Ben Arfa are not restricted because of Ba either, they are restricted because of the s*** tactics we deploy which again isn't down to Ba but the f***ing numpty of a manager. Ba would excel even more if we actually played some football, they all would, Cisse, Cabaye, all of them.

 

You are building a whole case around this absolute folly of an idea that we play like we do to get the best out of Ba and to hell with the others which is ridiculous because we play like we do because of the manager, it is as simple as that.

 

*He might have said he prefers to play centrally and why not, look at the number of goals he's scored there.

[Fenham Mag]

Why is Ba the player who should be built around rather Cabaye or Cisse or Ben Arfa? Simply because he happens to have been scoring the most goals? 

 

Seems a very archaic view of the game to me.

 

The elephant in the room of course is that Ba isn't even playing well. 2 goals in his last 8 games won't keep us up any more than Cabaye's 2 in 8 or Cisse's 2 in 8.

 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Yeah it has nothing to do with Ba moaning about playing on the left and Pardew succumbing to his every command and promising he will play up front even if it is detriment to the team.....

 

Restricting Cabaye, Cisse and Ben Arfa to the extent that they are useless..... Ben Arfa is so deep he might as well be a wing back, Cabaye is so deep he might as well be standing on Coloccini toes and Cisse is never in the box anymore due to playing to Ba.

 

This is whole system is designed to get the best out of Ba even if it's a detriment to the team as a whole it's no coincidence at all that he's scoring while the rest of the team is struggling.

 

Ba is scoring but we are going down in the process so whats the point.

 

Build the team around Ba and the overall football suffers as a whole, build the team around Cabaye, Ben Arfa and Cisse like we did at the end of last season and the football is fantastic even if it means Ba not scoring.

 

Ba might score like this but the team plays like s*** and i for one don't accept one individual being bigger than the club.

 

 

This is spot on for me, I have to say.

 

I love Ba and I don't want him sold, but I do want him moved out left for the benefit of the whole team.

 

There is no guarantee moving Ba anywhere will benefit the whole team, he and his role is the least of our worries. It is the way we play football that is the problem, not Ba be it 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. Obviously we d not have the players for 4-4-2 so shouldn't play it and I personally quite like the 4-3-3 formation but I wouldn't say Ba HAS to play left, he doesn't. Any forward line should be interchangeable which is how we played last season when we went to the forward 3 anyway, with Ba playing across that line.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I agree it should be fluid, but Cisse's basic position should be central and Ba's left.

 

Also agree our general style needs to improve, but getting three players in midfield would be the basis for that.

 

We all know basically what we would like to see that fluid 4-3-3 from last season, but it doesn't seem like Pards is thinking along those lines.

[Jack Flash]

Why is Ba the player who should be built around rather Cabaye or Cisse or Ben Arfa? Simply because he happens to have been scoring the most goals? 

 

Seems a very archaic view of the game to me.

 

The elephant in the room of course is that Ba isn't even playing well. 2 goals in his last 8 games won't keep us up any more than Cabaye's 2 in 8 or Cisse's 2 in 8.

 

Pardew is stubbornly sticking to a rigid, archaic formation which doesn't favour, or indeed involve, flair or creativity. The only hope we have of getting something from a game is to hope an individual pulls something out the bag and saves us. Cisse isn't doing that and Ben Arfa isn't either while Ba has been doing that this season.

 

Nobody is happy with that current system but while it's here I'm banking on Ba to keep us going.

[hakka]

What's funny is that although goals did dry up for Ba when playing on the left and Cisse was scoring, Ba was very unlucky not to score. He hit the bar a few times and forced some wonderful saves. If he had put a few of them away he would probably be ok with playing on the left.

[Wullie]

HTT and Jack are both peddling a scornful line that "So going to 4-3-3 is the simple answer to our problems is it?!"

 

Whether it is or isn't, it actually genuinely was last season. The form and performances leading up to the West Brom game was similar to now, negative long ball guff (Villa, mackems, Wolves and Norwich at home were just awful). The five games following it were chalk and cheese, like 11 completely different players. Hardly worthy of such scorn to suggest that, erm, that might be our best way of playing.

[hakka]

HTT and Jack are both peddling a scornful line that "So going to 4-3-3 is the simple answer to our problems is it?!"

 

Whether it is or isn't, it actually genuinely was last season. The form and performances leading up to the West Brom game was similar to now, negative long ball guff (Villa, mackems, Wolves and Norwich at home were just awful). The five games following it were chalk and cheese, like 11 completely different players. Hardly worthy of such scorn to suggest that, erm, that might be our best way of playing.

 

Agree.

 

End of the day we've seen Pardew achieve fluent passing football that worked and got amazing return on goals from Cisse. There is no reason why we shouldn't return to that formation given our current awful performances. You can suggest other formations, but we already have found one that worked with that front three of Ba, Cisse and Ben Arfa.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I agree it should be fluid, but Cisse's basic position should be central and Ba's left.

 

Also agree our general style needs to improve, but getting three players in midfield would be the basis for that.

 

We all know basically what we would like to see that fluid 4-3-3 from last season, but it doesn't seem like Pards is thinking along those lines.

 

For me, Ba is the better all-rounder than Cisse, although Cisse would probably score more goals than Ba as a central striker.

 

Can Ba and Cisse work in a forward 3? I think they can as they showed last season, but I don't think Ba for example HAS to play wide left. I think he has enough about his game to work that line be it from the left, right or centrally. Just as you would never say for example play Ben Arfa wide right in the 3 and expect him to stay wide right at all times.

 

Ideally, as much as I rate Cisse and love having all these quality players, if we are to play 4-3-3 I would want someone like a Shane Long left to Ba, someone who works his socks off pressing and harrying but more importantly stretches defences, makes darting runs, draws defenders out etc. I'm not advocating signing Long by the way, although he's a decent enough player, just someone like him. The Bellamy we had would have been superb...

 

Back to Cisse and Ba, what we are seeing is two players bought because they fit all the criteria etc. but not the manager's and that's where our scouting and team-selection will always clash. We buy players not to play any kind of system or role but because they fit the bill in other ways and that's perhaps where the manager needs more input or the club need to define a standard way of play, throughout the ranks, and hire managers to play that way.

 

Pardew is struggling to fit all these players together in his preferred system and while he can change things and try new things, he is somewhat hamstrung if he cannot do what he thinks is best based on what he wants to do. I'm in no doubt that we'd be doing better now if we had two traditional wingers and another mobile target man type forward with his 4-4-2 and long ball tactics. Although we wouldn't eclipse last season playing that kind of football and never would.

 

I think he pushed for the Carroll deal more than the club and its interesting he bought Obertan, his 'flying winger', which suggests he is fixed on 4-4-2.

 

Th club need to buy players he needs in January or get rid and get a manager in who can work with the players we have in a way that gets the best out of them which Pardew is struggling with and badly so as we are seeing with the Ba/Cisse situation.

[Jack Flash]

The "flick a switch and up we go" attitude is what I'm questioning. There's more to turning an entire season around than just changing a formation. We were 6th going into the West Brom game, high on confidence and well motivation which both obviously lends themselves to the kind of football we briefly played. It's the complete opposite now, like when Keegan's teams lost motivation at the end of a season and the attacking football fell short.

 

While Pardew is desperate for results he's not going to change to a formation he almost definitely only remembers as the one we lost 4-0 with. His defensive minded approach doesn't want attacking football if it might lead to a big defeat.

[Parky]

Ba and Cisse are too similar, neither has a good enough all round game to be the one that drops off and does the extra running with moments of creativity and guile. They're both only suited to the No.9 role.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

HTT and Jack are both peddling a scornful line that "So going to 4-3-3 is the simple answer to our problems is it?!"

 

Whether it is or isn't, it actually genuinely was last season. The form and performances leading up to the West Brom game was similar to now, negative long ball guff (Villa, mackems, Wolves and Norwich at home were just awful). The five games following it were chalk and cheese, like 11 completely different players. Hardly worthy of such scorn to suggest that, erm, that might be our best way of playing.

 

You couldn't be more wrong Wullie, I absolutely favour 4-3-3 but I'm not sure playing Ba wide left is critical to that 4-3-3 which is what some are suggesting. I know Cisse scored a lot of goals last season playing central but so did Ba and who is to say Cisse wide left or even wide right wouldn't work just as well.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Ba and Cisse are too similar, neither has a good enough all round game to be the one that drops off and does the extra running with moments of creativity and guile. They're both only suited to the No.9 role.

 

I think they are totally different myself. Ba is more akin to your Shearer with Cisse being more akin to your Owen. Ba has the better all-round game, Cisse is more of the finisher and player to play on the last man. I still think they can play alongside each other as a twosome even in a 4-4-2 to good effect but we would need to play with wingers and have to change the way we play considerably which is what we would have to do regardless if we are to see the best of both together.

[Guest malandro]

The "flick a switch and up we go" attitude is what I'm questioning. There's more to turning an entire season around than just changing a formation. We were 6th going into the West Brom game, high on confidence and well motivation which both obviously lends themselves to the kind of football we briefly played. It's the complete opposite now, like when Keegan's teams lost motivation at the end of a season and the attacking football fell short.

 

While Pardew is desperate for results he's not going to change to a formation he almost definitely only remembers as the one we lost 4-0 with. His defensive minded approach doesn't want attacking football if it might lead to a big defeat.

 

Agree. The problem is far deeper than formation. Sticking BA out wide isn't going to make much difference now we have lost momentum and confidence. Unity will be next to go if we carry on losing. Bad management at every level of the club can't be fixed by flicking a switch.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

By the way, I'd love to know what goes on in training with the forwards and just what kind of coaching the two receive. I remember KK working with Shearer and Sir Les with Shearer being the one to peel away, to switch to the flanks, and Ferdinand the one to drop deeper. He reasoned Shearer was a better crosser and Ferdinand was better dropping deep and using his pace and power to drive through the middle ala Everton away. And that's how they often played.

[Wullie]

HTT and Jack are both peddling a scornful line that "So going to 4-3-3 is the simple answer to our problems is it?!"

 

Whether it is or isn't, it actually genuinely was last season. The form and performances leading up to the West Brom game was similar to now, negative long ball guff (Villa, mackems, Wolves and Norwich at home were just awful). The five games following it were chalk and cheese, like 11 completely different players. Hardly worthy of such scorn to suggest that, erm, that might be our best way of playing.

 

You couldn't be more wrong Wullie, I absolutely favour 4-3-3 but I'm not sure playing Ba wide left is critical to that 4-3-3 which is what some are suggesting. I know Cisse scored a lot of goals last season playing central but so did Ba and who is to say Cisse wide left or even wide right wouldn't work just as well.

 

I say it because I've seen him play.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

HTT and Jack are both peddling a scornful line that "So going to 4-3-3 is the simple answer to our problems is it?!"

 

Whether it is or isn't, it actually genuinely was last season. The form and performances leading up to the West Brom game was similar to now, negative long ball guff (Villa, mackems, Wolves and Norwich at home were just awful). The five games following it were chalk and cheese, like 11 completely different players. Hardly worthy of such scorn to suggest that, erm, that might be our best way of playing.

 

You couldn't be more wrong Wullie, I absolutely favour 4-3-3 but I'm not sure playing Ba wide left is critical to that 4-3-3 which is what some are suggesting. I know Cisse scored a lot of goals last season playing central but so did Ba and who is to say Cisse wide left or even wide right wouldn't work just as well.

 

I say it because I've seen him play.

 

And how many times in that position? Not that I'm saying give him a chance there or that he could do well there.