Hanshithispantz Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I wouldn't say its a top 7 team easily but its definitely capable of challenging to be in and around Everton and Liverpool. Especially now with all these signings in January, at the end of the day though we should be nowhere near 15th so its really irrelevant. Pretty much this. I said top 4 and I would at least expect us to put up a decent fight every year but ultimately it's a battle of the teams just outside of that bracket. If we're amongst that I'm happy, if we can do one better and break into the top 4 (which is entirely possible) I'd be fucking delighted, obviously. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdckelly Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 a club that should be battling for the top 4 every season. And before anyone says anything here, a couple of years ago this was different as it appeared that we were an unattractive club who players didn't want to be 100 miles of with an owner who was unwilling invest/was just going to pocket the cash etc. That simply isn't the case at all now. bit of a way to go before you can call us a club that should be battling for the top 4 every season with the sides all battling for it atm Yeah, because they all have top managers. Chelsea fans would disagree, but they have other advantages Chelsea can buy their way into the top 4, Arsenal are staying in on sheer inertia at this stage, Liverpools history and profile allows them to have an easier job of attracting better players like Suarez to the club who would never come here even if we were in the identical position to Liverpool when trying to sign him from Ajax. Arguably the ones who don't have a significant advantage over us are Everton who can barely be called in the cl race any year but could be said to be challenging for it and they stuck with Moyes even after a relegation battle after a good season and Spurs who have a similar enough methodology to us in how they work but are a few years further down the line. A few years ago they were still challenging for the top 4, as they have been for donkeys because they've had good managers. Moyes is a better manager than Pardew too, just because they stuck with him and it worked doesn't mean it's the same with every manager. It's the same with Fergie "What if Man U sacked him back in 93!" or whenever it was, well yeah, but what if they stuck with Alan Pardew in 93? Moyes had a chance to prove himself a good manager at Everton, Pardew after last season should be allowed this season as a bad one with a chance to show he can produce better again next season imho (assuming we stay up) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 The justification for keeping him next season appears to have shifted from a genuine belief he could make a decent fist of it and take us forward to comments such as we might as well / he's not going anywhere so there's no point in talking about it / we couldn't or wouldn't get anyone better than him / we owe him something because we finished 5th last year, etc. You waste enough of your fucking time supporting this club - watching teams without a clue playing shite football and getting awful results - and I'd rather not waste any more time next season for the wooly reasoning above when the opportunity to push on is so clearly there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 How good are the players then Disco? Worse than Southampton? Villa? Norwich? Stoke? Presumably you think we need to jettison Graham Carr too as he's the one primarily responsible for bringing them in? And there we go again. Forget it then. You've become worse than Stu for not offering an opinion but being happy to pour scorn on that of others. Absolute drivel. My opinons are absolutely all over the shop as you well know. Where did I mention we should get rid of Carr again...remind me please. You said that the players aren't as good as everyone thinks (I.e. good enough not to be battling relegation). If that was my opinion I'd definitely want shot of the bloke who has chosen them after we've spent a decent amount of money. Playing at full pelt they are no-one is this season, more or less everyone bar Krul is playing beneath themselves and people are forgetting that Debuchy, Sissoko, MYM et al aren't going to be pulling up trees straight away as foreign players that aren't world class generally don't and even some of the those world class ones struggle at first (Bergkamp & Henry for e.g.) Everyone goes on about us having the best squad in years, they're basing that on players playing at their peak every game rather than their average which is generally a truer indicator of how they're liable to perform week in, week out. Tiote has been appalling for the most part this season, Santon has cost us goal after goal after goal, Coloccini has been a shell of the player we saw last year, Cisse has been poor in large spells (yet he can't be dropped because there is no-one else), we've got no creative players aside from two injury prone Frenchman, our squad depth is horrible etc. etc. Its a top 7 first team easily This is what I mean, it isn't at all IMO. FWIW I had us down for 8th start of the season. we don't have a team that should be fighting for relegation might make more sense to you . we don't even have a manager that can average in the top 10 ffs . better. ot hide in the hole if we lose tomorrow and to the mackems maybe its us cursing pardew that got us in this state Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 a club that should be battling for the top 4 every season. And before anyone says anything here, a couple of years ago this was different as it appeared that we were an unattractive club who players didn't want to be 100 miles of with an owner who was unwilling invest/was just going to pocket the cash etc. That simply isn't the case at all now. bit of a way to go before you can call us a club that should be battling for the top 4 every season with the sides all battling for it atm Yeah, because they all have top managers. Chelsea fans would disagree, but they have other advantages Chelsea can buy their way into the top 4, Arsenal are staying in on sheer inertia at this stage, Liverpools history and profile allows them to have an easier job of attracting better players like Suarez to the club who would never come here even if we were in the identical position to Liverpool when trying to sign him from Ajax. Arguably the ones who don't have a significant advantage over us are Everton who can barely be called in the cl race any year but could be said to be challenging for it and they stuck with Moyes even after a relegation battle after a good season and Spurs who have a similar enough methodology to us in how they work but are a few years further down the line. A few years ago they were still challenging for the top 4, as they have been for donkeys because they've had good managers. Moyes is a better manager than Pardew too, just because they stuck with him and it worked doesn't mean it's the same with every manager. It's the same with Fergie "What if Man U sacked him back in 93!" or whenever it was, well yeah, but what if they stuck with Alan Pardew in 93? Moyes had a chance to prove himself a good manager at Everton, Pardew after last season should be allowed this season as a bad one with a chance to show he can produce better again next season imho (assuming we stay up) Fair enough I suppose, personally I just want a manager in who we know is good and who has a tendency to not play woeful football. I'm on the verge of vinegar strokes every weekend only to have Pardew come along and boot me square in the cock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 The justification for keeping him next season appears to have shifted from a genuine belief he could make a decent fist of it and take us forward to comments such as we might as well / he's not going anywhere so there's no point in talking about it / we couldn't or wouldn't get anyone better than him / we owe him something because we finished 5th last year, etc. You waste enough of your fucking time supporting this club - watching teams without a clue playing shite football and getting awful results - and I'd rather not waste any more time next season for the wooly reasoning above when the opportunity to push on is so clearly there. people grow an attachment to a manager and just want him to succeed, it happens all the time. Pardew probably does deserve a chance to prove himself with a full squad, but I don't think we can afford to give him it. We're not a charity. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I wouldn't say its a top 7 team easily but its definitely capable of challenging to be in and around Everton and Liverpool. Especially now with all these signings in January, at the end of the day though we should be nowhere near 15th so its really irrelevant. Pretty much this. I said top 4 and I would at least expect us to put up a decent fight every year but ultimately it's a battle of the teams just outside of that bracket. If we're amongst that I'm happy, if we can do one better and break into the top 4 (which is entirely possible) I'd be f***ing delighted, obviously. Yep quite frankly the difference between 4th and 7th is very small, as long as you have challenged for those spots you have done your job. Obviously 7th being the minimum and 4th being the Maximum in that bracket. Disco brings up a good point about creativity though, i know everyone talks about strikers and centre backs and rightly so but i think we are really lacking a proper attacking midfielder with creativity and guile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Pardew is pretty much anti-football. Can't put it any simpler than that.. Very, very rarely something of beauty happens on the pitch - maybe once or twice a game if that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Personally, wouldn't judge a player's capacity to produce performances week in week out based on this season/Pardew's stewardship. I've seen most of our big guns play consistently well at some point - well enough to know they are capable of doing it for reasonable stretches of time, and that anything in excess of turd football isn't an aberration or unfaithful representation of their true abilities. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Would you agree though that even with injuries and issues, the squad should have comfortably made it into that pack of teams that have been safe for about three months: Swansea, West Brom etc. I don't think anyone could have argued about results too much if we were in with them and not far behind quite a poor Liverpool side. The position we are in however should have seen him go months ago. Obviously performances are a different matter - they were shit last season and shit this season. I can't genuinely believe that anyone thinks Pardew is the right man to get the best out of these players, even if they were fit every single game. Even with injuries etc we should be higher up than we are, definitely. Pretty obvious but if we'd have the squad we have now for the whole season we would be, that winter run was a total disaster. As I've said I'm pretty non-plussed either way on Pardew, I've never particularly liked him a person, you'd be hard pressed to find a football fan that does outside of Newcastle but I can see both sides of the argument and both are pretty valid IMO. If, and we won't, we do bin him it would need to be on 19th May at 6:30pm. we've got no creative players aside from two injury prone Frenchman, our squad depth is horrible etc. etc. We've got Marveaux, who hardly ever plays - see above. Not sure if you were serious but I meant Marveaux and HBA. Sissoko to me is a Yaya lite and would only create via force of running etc. EDIT: you blates meant Cabaye and yeah I'd class him as one if he played further forward instead of deep. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Personally, wouldn't judge a player's capacity to produce performances week in week out based on this season/Pardew's stewardship. I've seen most of our big guns play consistently well at some point - well enough to know they are capable of doing it for reasonable stretches of time, and that anything in excess of turd football isn't an aberration or unfaithful representation of their true abilities. They aren't being allowed to play their natural game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Personally, wouldn't judge a player's capacity to produce performances week in week out based on this season/Pardew's stewardship. I've seen most of our big guns play consistently well at some point - well enough to know they are capable of doing it for reasonable stretches of time, and that anything in excess of turd football isn't an aberration or unfaithful representation of their true abilities. Do agree but if things don't improve quickly we won't have the players to judge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Only have to look how S'hampton whose team is inferior to ours in every way break when they get the ball. 5-6 players get ahead of the ball. We rarely attack with more than 2-3 players. This is down to the manager and the whole safety first/percentage outlook. Our football has been dismal for the vast majority of the time. I just don't think he really much more than the system he likes to stick to - sit deep and all that guff... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Only have to look how S'hampton whose team is inferior to ours in every way break when they get the ball. 5-6 players get ahead of the ball. We rarely attack with more than 2-3 players. FYP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovejoy Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I've been relatively supportive of Pardew this season, admittedly based on what we did last season. I have even been p*ssed off many times when seeing this thread shoot to the top of the board as soon as we concede a goal (let alone get beat) when the same didn't happen when we got a good win. Mick (as much as I like you mick!) has driven me mad at times this season (and last at times) with his views, but he's been right all along. For us to be in a relegation battle in April with the squad we have is absolutely indefensible. We cannot keep on basing arguments in support of Pardew on last season (i include myself in that btw). Southampton are a recent example of a team who have binned a manager (who did a superb job for them, far better than Pardew has for us) and replaced him and have improved. Their chairman simply felt they had outgrown Adkins, time will tell, but he seems to have made the correct decision so far (he made the right decision getting rid of our current manager too btw). I feel the same has happened with us, we've got to replace him with someone who takes us to the next level. We are in a very fortunate position in that we have a very good squad of players (imo obviously), we are a back up striker and a winger/fit ben arfa away from having the strongest squad we've had in many years and we are deep in a relegation battle, how can this be ok? he simply has to go. I'm at the point where I believe that it doesn't matter which team we are facing, if their manager has an ounce of tactical awareness Pardew is f***ed and we are beat. We are an attractive proposition now for both players and a manager, far more attractive than when Pardew arrived, he deserves credit for this but that shouldn't mean he is bullet proof, he needs to be replaced, that's for certain. If he doesnt go, we'll face an exodus of our top players (undoing some superb work to get them in the first place) and will go backwards yet again. Get rid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheGreatBeardo Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 I'm new here, but isn't it traditional to wait untill we actually lose before before these arguments begin again? We lost 2 days ago. We lost 2 days ago against a very good side, away from home, largely due to individual errors, in the first leg of the QF of a major european competition, whilst creating some very good chances which we were unfortunate not to convert, without a number of important players. I don't see how it's relevant to the "this team should be challenging for 4th and it's all Pardew's fault we're not" argument. I was just pointing out the error of your post, sorry. Anyway you seem to be suggesting that we only have this discussion directly after we have played horribly and lost? That seems very fickle and reactionary to me. That's true, the argument is usually equally as healthy on the same subject after a win Fair enough. Like I said, I'm new here. Though I am an accomplished lurker, I never really followed the threads the same way I do now I have started posting. I guess my impression of the cycle of this thread might have been wrong, going by the replies all kind of seeming to agree that it was a daft thing to say. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Only have to look how S'hampton whose team is inferior to ours in every way break when they get the ball. 5-6 players get ahead of the ball. We rarely attack with more than 2-3 players. FYP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaKa Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Can't believe this plonker has us in a relegation scrap. Unreal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 we've got no creative players aside from two injury prone Frenchman, our squad depth is horrible etc. etc. We've got Marveaux, who hardly ever plays - see above. Not sure if you were serious but I meant Marveaux and HBA. Sissoko to me is a Yaya lite and would only create via force of running etc. Oh OK, thought you meant HBA and Cabaye. Marveaux's barely been unavailable for selection this season, not sure you can call him injury-prone in the context. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Top post lovejoy Especially the bit about Southampton realising that they have outgrown their man and moving on. With Pardew the squad won't evolve to what it's capable of imo, that's the only reason I want him gone (outside of this horrific season anyway), even if he does well next season, which I think he will, we'll never be what we could be and it will always make me sad. In short I can tolerate Pardew but I don't want him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Have to say watching Southampton transform so effortlessly with a new manager is very galling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovejoy Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Top post lovejoy Especially the bit about Southampton realising that they have outgrown their man and moving on. With Pardew the squad won't evolve to what it's capable of imo, that's the only reason I want him gone (outside of this horrific season anyway), even if he does well next season, which I think he will, we'll never be what we could be and it will always make me sad. In short I can tolerate Pardew but I don't want him. Cheers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NG32 Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Its time to start shampooing the sheep and preparing them to be shaved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovejoy Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Have to say watching Southampton transform so effortlessly with a new manager is very galling Its haunting me! the fella cant even speak English and they're flying under him! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovejoy Posted April 6, 2013 Share Posted April 6, 2013 Is there a 'who would you replace Pardew with type thread btw? I'd love to read peoples suggestions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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