England's Lewis Hall

[Toon1892]

5 minutes ago, PRL said:

Slightly baffled that the whole argument is based on height. According to an admittedly cursory search of google, White is only 3cm (1 inch) taller than Livramento and Zinchenko is smaller than Hall. No mention of Liverpool who have very small full backs and seem to do okay. 
 

its entirely dependent on style of play. I’d say the more metronomic football played by City and Arsenal fits well with what you’re saying, while the more dynamic and full throttle attacking suits rapid full backs more. 
 

I would also note Hall looks pretty strong in the air. It’s not just height that helps set pieces or Dan Burn would score double figures every season. Its strength, power, jump and technique. To argue that we just need a team of monsters seems pretty one dimensional. 

Liverpool have played a lot of this season with 3 CBs (Konate). Their formed dropped when they went back to two old fashioned full backs. There’s your Liverpool mention.

 

It’s about how good you are in the air. Not your height. Comparing Tino and White in the air is silly. Tino is a class player, amazing footballer but he’s not good in the air. He lost his man at a corner for Burnley’s goal for example. 
 

If we ever want to win the league unfortunately we will need a better in the air team. ‘Tall’ teams win leagues, even going back to Fergie or Wengers invincibles. I know that annoys fans and I apologise for that.

[Toon1892]

8 minutes ago, M1tche said:

Did miss any of it, and you rightly say it worked because Botman was unreal, that's correct. Also, that's means that the cracks were being papered over by someone doing extra work, which isn't the case for other teams that play that way, and it shouldn't be for us. A defensive full back shouldn't need that level of cover. 

I think any full back in world football wouldn’t like playing next to an injured centre half. We had the second best defensive record in the league. That isn’t papering over cracks. Don’t let the facts get in the way of your opinion. Also please be patient if Burn does start next season at left back.

[LFEE]

12 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Agreed.

 

I think Howe went too cold with Hall a few months ago. I won't give him massive credit for Hall's form now because he's had no choice. I give him credit for getting the tune out of him now. I wish he had a bit more faith in the lad awhile ago.

 

As you say - serendipity is real. Injuries have given us a run of games of what the future looks like at fullback for us and it does indeed look good. If not for injury crisis both FBs would be on the bench getting few minutes.

Need to remember the snippets we pick up and think of the big picture behind the scenes amongst the squad. Was quite telling a few players let slip Hall was always last to training. As the latest recruit that sends out bad signals and not a good look. Was he late? No. Was he pushing as hard as he could to get ahead of his competition? No. Meanwhile I’ve noticed a physical change and confidence in him looking more comfortable on and off the pitch from his first fleeting appearances compared to his latest. The body language in the match cams and photos etc he’s starting to look settled in the group.
 

To me it looks like EH has got this one right as he tends to do.

[STM]

2 hours ago, Toon1892 said:

Yes but the top managers allow conceding 5 or 6 counter attacking goals a season to prevent an extra 12 or 13 set piece goals a season.

 

Sorry but it isn’t rocket science why every top manager is doing it. I know people on this forum know more than Pep and Arteta and would do a better job but please just look at what is happening.

 The level of contempt in this post is amazing. Its also factually nonsense.

[Toon1892]

2 minutes ago, STM said:

 The level of contempt in this post is amazing. Its also factually nonsense.

Ok so they’re playing 3 CB’s in a back 4 for banter purposes.

 

You’re saying my post contains contempt yet saying ‘factually nonsense’ at someone else’s post. Is that irony lost on you? ?

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/9618/Stages/22076/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2023-2024

 

You can have a look at the stats if you like…

 

 

Edited May 6 by Toon1892

[80]

51 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

He's not in the team because the experts have judged that he's ready. He's in the team because there are no other options. He looks ready now - despite the experts not thinking he's ready.

 

This is my issue with some people. They act like everything is part of a master plan. If not for injury crisis Hall would be sitting on the bench getting few minutes.,

...And people would be confident that he's still not ready and wouldn't be any help in matches.

[mighty__mag]

Real Madrid: Fran Garcia/Vasques/Carvajal

Leverkusen: Frimpong/Grimaldo

Inter: DiMarco

Liverpool: Robertson/Trent

 

Just thinking of a few of the great shorter fullbacks around, take the point about big or small, what you need is adaptation, and choice, but I wouldn't just convert Akanji and Ake to fullbacks, its not what Pep has done at all, even Gvardiol, they're all traditional CBs Pep wants them all to be comfortable in covering all defensive positions, over time even Walker became a hybrid,  used to be traditional RB but slots in at CB,

I don't think for Pep it's a height thing, it's having a back four confident in switching and covering, even stones dropping into the middle, same with Rico Lewis covers fullback,midfield, Pep wants players who do everything well, and are adaptable. 

 

For us we've not just shelled out on two young fullbacks that aren't over 6ft for nothing, Burn is versatile, but in no way shape or form he's a proper LB in the way we play, he's done extremely well considering, his recent stints covering CB make him look a lot more comfortable, if we did have the option of taller fullbacks, you'd have to consider Antonee Robinson of Fulham over 6ft and plays like a fullback, rapid and up and down, Lloyd Kelly also started his career at fullback with Bristol, as did Tyrone Mings at Ipswich, Kelly is quite similar to Mings.

 

Don't really think it's a major thing and that everyone needs to mimic Pep or Arteta, as Arsenal would rip your hand off for Frimpong and Grimaldo.

 

I do believe Pep uses many of his players as hybrids, and expects them to slot in where needed.

 

My opinion for what it's worth.

 

 

 

Edited May 6 by mighty__mag

[80]

27 minutes ago, LFEE said:

Need to remember the snippets we pick up and think of the big picture behind the scenes amongst the squad. Was quite telling a few players let slip Hall was always last to training. As the latest recruit that sends out bad signals and not a good look. Was he late? No. Was he pushing as hard as he could to get ahead of his competition? No. Meanwhile I’ve noticed a physical change and confidence in him looking more comfortable on and off the pitch from his first fleeting appearances compared to his latest. The body language in the match cams and photos etc he’s starting to look settled in the group.
 

To me it looks like EH has got this one right as he tends to do.

You're making a valid point, and it raises an interesting prospect - it's possible Eddie still doesn't consider him ready because of his off pitch habits, and is still only playing him through necessity, rather than because form dictates it. I suspect not, but we'll see.

[Toon1892]

2 minutes ago, mighty__mag said:

Real Madrid: Fran Garcia/Vasques/Carradale.

Leverkusen: Frimpong/Grimaldo

Inter: DiMarco

Liverpool: Robertson/Trent

 

Just thinking of a few of the great shorter fullbacks around, take the point about big or small, what you need is adaptation, and choice, but I wouldn't just convert Akanji and Ake to fullbacks, its not what Pep has done at all, even Gvardiol, they're all traditional CBs Pep wants them all to be comfortable in covering all defensive positions, over time even Walker became a hybrid,  used to be traditional RB but slots in at CB,

I don't think for Pep it's a height thing, it's having a back four confident in switching and covering, even stones dropping into the middle, same with Rico Lewis covers fullback,midfield, Pep wants players who do everything well, and are adaptable. 

 

For us we've not just shelled out on two young fullbacks that aren't over 6ft for nothing, Burn is versatile, but in no way shape or form he's a proper LB in the way we play, he's done extremely well considering, his recent stints covering CB make him look a lot more comfortable, if we did have the option of taller fullbacks, you'd have to consider Antonee Robinson of Fulham over 6ft and plays like a fullback, rapid and up and down, Lloyd Kelly also started his career at fullback with Bristol, as did Tyrone Mings at Ipswich, Kelly is quite similar to Mings.

 

Don't really think it's a major thing and that everyone needs to mimic Pep or Arteta, as Arsenal would rip your hand off for Frimpong and Grimaldo.

 

I do believe Pep uses many of his players as hybrids, and expects them to slot in where needed.

 

My opinion for what it's worth.

 

I definitely agree with your post but I do think the premier league is more physical than the European leagues. 
 

Pep didn’t play this way at Barcelona. He had a very small defence there. He’s came to the league watched what was needed to win the league and invested on that basis.

 

I’m not saying Hall is a bad signing, I think he’ll be class. I think Tino will be world class. All I’m saying is that we do need a player like Kelly who can play left back when we do face the bigger/ better sides in the league.

 

We can’t go to Arsenal away and concede three goals from set pieces. We’ve seen them bully teams at set pieces all season.

 

Man City don’t concede from corners. Historically the way a bottom 5 side side could beat a top 4 side team was usually by a set piece and then hold out for a win by 11 men behind the ball. Pep saw that and stopped it from happening.

 

It is just my opinion too. No one has to agree. I’m also saying it’s Pep, Arteta, Howe, Emery’s opinion too to reinforce my point. Not to be doubt your modern football understanding etc.

[PRL]

33 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

Liverpool have played a lot of this season with 3 CBs (Konate). Their formed dropped when they went back to two old fashioned full backs. There’s your Liverpool mention.

 

It’s about how good you are in the air. Not your height. Comparing Tino and White in the air is silly. Tino is a class player, amazing footballer but he’s not good in the air. He lost his man at a corner for Burnley’s goal for example. 
 

If we ever want to win the league unfortunately we will need a better in the air team. ‘Tall’ teams win leagues, even going back to Fergie or Wengers invincibles. I know that annoys fans and I apologise for that.

I’ve not watched a huge amount of Liverpool this season, but can see that Konate has only played CB for them and looking at formation stats they’ve invariably played 4 at the back, so I’m not sure how you’re concluding they’ve played ‘a lot’ of the season with 3 CBs unless I’m missing something. 
 

And you’ve said exactly what I’ve said - it is about how good you are in the air, and Lewis Hall seems to be pretty good in the air from what we’ve seen so far. Yet you’re arguing for Burn at left back, who is renowned at being below average in the air for his height. Make your mind up. 
 

‘Tall teams win leagues’ is such a blanket statement. Liverpool won the league a few years ago with TAA and Robertson playing pivotal roles in that success. Same as the CL. You’re just pulling out points to agree with your argument and it’s far more nuanced than you’re trying to portray it. 
 

the stupid thing is that I don’t disagree that there is obviously value in shoring up from set pieces, and I’d be worried about a midfield containing Tonali and Bruno with two smaller full backs, depending on the rest of the team’s ability to defend set pieces. 
 

it’s just nowhere near as binary as you’re implying it is and arguing that way doesn’t make you seem as smart as I think you think it does. 

[Toon1892]

1 minute ago, PRL said:

I’ve not watched a huge amount of Liverpool this season, but can see that Konate has only played CB for them and looking at formation stats they’ve invariably played 4 at the back, so I’m not sure how you’re concluding they’ve played ‘a lot’ of the season with 3 CBs unless I’m missing something. 
 

And you’ve said exactly what I’ve said - it is about how good you are in the air, and Lewis Hall seems to be pretty good in the air from what we’ve seen so far. Yet you’re arguing for Burn at left back, who is renowned at being below average in the air for his height. Make your mind up. 
 

‘Tall teams win leagues’ is such a blanket statement. Liverpool won the league a few years ago with TAA and Robertson playing pivotal roles in that success. Same as the CL. You’re just pulling out points to agree with your argument and it’s far more nuanced than you’re trying to portray it. 
 

the stupid thing is that I don’t disagree that there is obviously value in shoring up from set pieces, and I’d be worried about a midfield containing Tonali and Bruno with two smaller full backs, depending on the rest of the team’s ability to defend set pieces. 
 

it’s just nowhere near as binary as you’re implying it is and arguing that way doesn’t make you seem as smart as I think you think it does. 

Sorry but you lost me saying Burn is bad in the air and Hall is good in the air. Come on man.

[PRL]

3 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

Sorry but you lost me saying Burn is bad in the air and Hall is good in the air. Come on man.

Ha, there you go. Little dismissive quip when you’ve been called out on things you’ve stated as fact when they’re actually not. I’ll leave it there. 
 

And to clarify, not that you needed it as you knew what I meant anyhow, you say ‘tall teams win leagues’ when it’s pointed out the heights of players are similar you say ‘it doesn’t matter what their height is it’s how good they are in the air’ and thus I was making the point re Hall being good in the air for someone of his height, and Burn being not as good as you’d hope from someone of his height. And then you retort with a dismissive response. You’re talking yourself in circles and contradictions. 

 

 

Edited May 6 by PRL

[Toon1892]

2 minutes ago, PRL said:

Ha, there you go. Little dismissive quip when you’ve been called out on things you’ve stated as fact when they’re actually not. I’ll leave it there. 

Ok I will bite and respond to it. Liverpool won the league playing with in my opinion the best aerially defensive player the league has seen in 10 years. Partnered with another cb who was 6”5 that season. They had a cm in Fabinho who was 6”2 and great in the air. They had a very tall team. 
 

Make my mind up? Ok I’ve made it up. I think Burn is better in the air than Hall. We can disagree on that, it’s fine but I don’t think I haven’t made my mind up on that.

 

I don’t think I’m being smart. I’m just looking at the very top teams in the league and seeing what they have that we don’t. Then writing that on a forum. 

[mighty__mag]

2 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

I definitely agree with your post but I do think the premier league is more physical than the European leagues. 
 

Pep didn’t play this way at Barcelona. He had a very small defence there. He’s came to the league watched what was needed to win the league and invested on that basis.

 

I’m not saying Hall is a bad signing, I think he’ll be class. I think Tino will be world class. All I’m saying is that we do need a player like Kelly who can play left back when we do face the bigger/ better sides in the league.

 

We can’t go to Arsenal away and concede three goals from set pieces. We’ve seen them bully teams at set pieces all season.

 

Man City don’t concede from corners. Historically the way a bottom 5 side side could beat a top 4 side team was usually by a set piece and then hold out for a win by 11 men behind the ball. Pep saw that and stopped it from happening.

 

It is just my opinion too. No one has to agree. I’m also saying it’s Pep, Arteta, Howe, Emery’s opinion too to reinforce my point. Not to be doubt your modern football understanding etc.

 

Fair enough, but surely you can see its less to do with him going out and buying a load of tall boys, and more to do with him converting players to be adaptable in various roles. 

 

People think its genius that all these players can do all this stuff, and that players can only play one role etc. but, the same way Pep has asked his players to play fullback midfield Centre back, it's not much different to Joelinton transforming from striker to CM, he could even play CDM for me Joe, absolute monster. People might laugh but I think Livramento could play right mid ahead of Trippier but with the ability to cover him and vice versa, but obviously Howe doesn't see it like that.

 

Each manager has their own methods, I'm definitely a believer in this trying players in other roles and having hybrids, Peps certainly made that obvious. 

[STM]

27 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

Ok so they’re playing 3 CB’s in a back 4 for banter purposes.

 

You’re saying my post contains contempt yet saying ‘factually nonsense’ at someone else’s post. Is that irony lost on you? ?

 

https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/9618/Stages/22076/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2023-2024

 

You can have a look at the stats if you like…

 

 

 

 

I know exactly who plays for what side and how they line up, I'm also fully aware of the pros and cons of such systems.

 

Do Liverpool play with CBs at fullback? Do Villa? Do Real Madrid? PSG? Bayern?

 

Or are we simply wanting to copy Man City and Arsenal who play one of their two fullback positions with a CB? And one of those sides literally played two traditional fullbacks two seasons ago.

 

I'm not saying having CBs at fullbacks doesn't work to a degree, I'm just doubting the logic of merely coping successfull sides because they do it. 

 

If you think Arsenal and City are top two because they have White and Ake playing in fullback positions, and not because they have a vast array of the best players on the planet, you want your head checked.

 

You quoted me first, not the other way around.

 

 

[Toon1892]

1 minute ago, mighty__mag said:

 

Fair enough, but surely you can see its less to do with him going out and buying a load of tall boys, and more to do with him converting players to be adaptable in various roles. 

 

People think its genius that all these players can do all this stuff, and that players can only play one role etc. but, the same way Pep has asked his players to play fullback midfield Centre back, it's not much different to Joelinton transforming from striker to CM, he could even play CDM for me Joe, absolute monster. People might laugh but I think Livramento could play right mid ahead of Trippier but with the ability to cover him and vice versa, but obviously Howe doesn't see it like that.

 

Each manager has their own methods, I'm definitely a believer in this trying players in other roles and having hybrids, Peps certainly made that obvious. 

Yes completely agree but I think he is signing tall players good in the air who are also good on the floor who he thinks can play left back:

 

Ake

Akanji

Gvardiol

 

They’re all tall, great in the air and great on the floor.

[STM]

2 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

Ok I will bite and respond to it. Liverpool won the league playing with in my opinion the best aerially defensive player the league has seen in 10 years. Partnered with another cb who was 6”5 that season. They had a cm in Fabinho who was 6”2 and great in the air. They had a very tall team. 
 

Make my mind up? Ok I’ve made it up. I think Burn is better in the air than Hall. We can disagree on that, it’s fine but I don’t think I haven’t made my mind up on that.

 

I don’t think I’m being smart. I’m just looking at the very top teams in the league and seeing what they have that we don’t. Then writing that on a forum. 

 

So you've already changed your arguement? You said tall full backs, not a tall side.

 

Everybody already knew that in order to be a really top side you need to have a certain physical presence in your side.

[PRL]

1 minute ago, Toon1892 said:

Ok I will bite and respond to it. Liverpool won the league playing with in my opinion the best aerially defensive player the league has seen in 10 years. Partnered with another cb who was 6”5 that season. They had a cm in Fabinho who was 6”2 and great in the air. They had a very tall team. 
 

Make my mind up? Ok I’ve made it up. I think Burn is better in the air than Hall. We can disagree on that, it’s fine but I don’t think I haven’t made my mind up on that.

 

I don’t think I’m being smart. I’m just looking at the very top teams in the league and seeing what they have that we don’t. Then writing that on a forum. 

right, so now we can win with 2 big CBs and a big central midfielder… so we don’t need big full backs to win the league? That’s slightly more nuanced than where you started and that’s the point I think people are trying to make. There’s more than one way to be successful and saying it has to be a certain way doesn’t reflect the history of football and evolution of the game. 
 

I’m still waiting to understand all the examples of the ‘lots’ of times Liverpool played this season with Konate either as full back or part of a back 3

[STM]

The reason those City players can play fullback is because they are absolutely exceptional players, who cost over 100m quid to aquire. 

 

Just wait until Pep signs a traditional left back.  Quick Quick, we need a tradional one.

[Toon1892]

1 minute ago, STM said:

 

So you've already changed your arguement? You said tall full backs, not a tall side.

 

Everybody already knew that in order to be a really top side you need to have a certain physical presence in your side.

I haven’t changed my mind? Many teams play with 3 CB’s in a back 4 to have more of an aerial presence to defend and attack set pieces which is a huge part of football. I’m explaining why Liverpool didn’t need to in that one season they won the league.

 

Sorry, I don’t mean to argue I’m just saying what I see. You might see it different that is fine.

 

Statistically Schar isn’t great in the air and therefore I can see why Howe wanted to play a third cb as Schar is an incredible footballer and wanted him in the side. There’s no need to get angry about my opinion and I’m sorry it has annoyed you.

[STM]

1 minute ago, PRL said:

right, so now we can win with 2 big CBs and a big central midfielder… so we don’t need big full backs to win the league? That’s slightly more nuanced than where you started and that’s the point I think people are trying to make. There’s more than one way to be successful and saying it has to be a certain way doesn’t reflect the history of football and evolution of the game. 
 

I’m still waiting to understand all the examples of the ‘lots’ of times Liverpool played this season with Konate either as full back or part of a back 3

 

 

It's just bollocks. Of course having a big full back has its advantages.... when they are as good as Ake and Co. We've got Dan Burn trying to do the same thing. So we get the good side in the air but we don't get the good side on the ground.

 

We've looked much more balanced with Hall LB and Burn CB and we shouldn't be switching back.

 

If we sign a quality LB who is also a 6ft+, fantastic.

[Toon1892]

1 minute ago, STM said:

The reason those City players can play fullback is because they are absolutely exceptional players, who cost over 100m quid to aquire. 

 

Just wait until Pep signs a traditional left back.  Quick Quick, we need a tradional one.

Ok well let’s wait to see if he buys a traditional one this summer. I honestly don’t think he will.

 

The problem is Arsenal have gone mad and created a team of giants who are class on the floor as well. How do we compete with that? That’s my only thinking. Arteta saw what Man City were doing when he worked with Pep. He learned directly from him. He’s copied that style and it’s paying off.

 

Yes we can go the traditional way of Tottenham and Liverpool but I do think we’d still be playing catch up.

[STM]

2 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

I haven’t changed my mind? Many teams play with 3 CB’s in a back 4 to have more of an aerial presence to defend and attack set pieces which is a huge part of football. I’m explaining why Liverpool didn’t need to in that one season they won the league.

 

Sorry, I don’t mean to argue I’m just saying what I see. You might see it different that is fine.

 

Statistically Schar isn’t great in the air and therefore I can see why Howe wanted to play a third cb as Schar is an incredible footballer and wanted him in the side. There’s no need to get angry about my opinion and I’m sorry it has annoyed you.

 

 

No worries. We can all see the advantages of having another big lad in the back 4. It's more to do with the ability of the individual.

[PRL]

5 minutes ago, Toon1892 said:

Ok well let’s wait to see if he buys a traditional one this summer. I honestly don’t think he will.

 

The problem is Arsenal have gone mad and created a team of giants who are class on the floor as well. How do we compete with that? That’s my only thinking. Arteta saw what Man City were doing when he worked with Pep. He learned directly from him. He’s copied that style and it’s paying off.

 

Yes we can go the traditional way of Tottenham and Liverpool but I do think we’d still be playing catch up.

Arsenal - 10th tallest in league

Man City - 13th 

Newcastle - 4th

 

https://www.givemesport.com/the-average-height-of-every-premier-league-squad/

 

We probably need more guile and girth before pure height. 

 

 

Edited May 6 by PRL

[Checko]

I think it's obviously helpful to have a number of tall players in the team to defend set pieces. I'll be honest though, I don't quite get why it's essential that at least one of those tall players must be one of the fullbacks.