Marc Guehi

[Ellis H]

11 minutes ago, 80 said:

Ironically, given the talk of human rights, it's literally article 18 of the human rights declaration that everyone has the right to manifest and observe their religious beliefs in public.

There’s quite a big and deliberate difference between Cisse kissing the ground when he scored and what Guehi has done. The inference is extremely clear, even if some are choosing not to see it due to their own “beliefs”.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Ellis H
Spelling

[madras]

Hey, has anyone bothered to ask if its love for Gabriel Jesus ?

[St. Maximin]

3 hours ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I think we know what he’s getting at

 

His religion generally thinks that gays are bad and he believes that above the support of those people. Not Jesus specifically maybe, but orthodox Christianity as a faith. 

 

 

 

It actually says that everyone is a sinner and gay people are no worse than straight people, but gay sex is a sin (not that all the followers think like that). I've mentioned before I grew up Christian and also think organised religion is ridiculous, but most people don't just happen to hate gays because of their beliefs. A lot of them, quite possibly Guehi here, feel compelled to follow the Bible and might even do it reluctantly, but just accepting they have to. I didn't know anyone who actually wanted to believe gay sex was a sin, let alone hated gays and I've known hundreds of Christians, so I'm in a pretty good place to comment here.

 

As always with these things some of the reactions are ridiculous, including on here. I do think Guehi is foolish for how he's acted, but he'd still be getting stick for just not wearing the armband altogether. Ultimately, people can interpet the meaning of it differently - for some it may just be about anti-discrimination in football, whereas for others it might be something more political and therefore I can understand why followers of Abrahamic religions feel it's incompatible with their beliefs even if it's just down to their interpetations. Why should they be forced to wear something they feel goes against their personal beliefs? Many footballers have quietly not taken part without making a fuss yet have still been made out to be nasty homophobes - it's a far cry from that rugby player explicitly sharing his views on social media.

 

It's like people just don't want nuance and room for subjectivity here. The supposedly tolerant people are very quick to put people in the racist/homophobic/Islamophobic/anti-semitic box without recognising their personal reasons. Funny how people sneer at "the gammons" for getting upset that James McLean doesn't wear a poppy (which he has every right not to, due to his own personal reasons), but that approach doesn't apply for religion. Doesn't want to wear a rainbow flag? Homophobe. Doesn't want to take the knee? Racist. Doesn't want to wear a poppy? IRA supporter.

[StuToon]

Extremely long time lurker and first time poster... so apologies in advance!

 

I'll start out by saying I'm a Christian and have been for a long time. I felt I should try and put forward the Christianity side of this debate.

 

Firstly, the bible teaches not to judge. And that means anyone, no matter what the "sin". And it also teaches that all sin is equal.

 

When someone becomes a Christian, it's a complete change of life. It's not something that you just switch on and off, it impacts every aspect of life. But it's hard to get it right all the time and certainly people get it wrong all the time, sometimes to the detriment of the Christian message.

 

Ultimately, Christians believe God teaches that everyone should be and deserves to be loved regardless of their beliefs or lifestyle.

 

I hope that what Marc Guehi was trying to show was that he believes in Jesus but also wanted to show his support for the LGBT community. That Christianity is for all. And that's why he chose to still wear the arm band with a Christian message.

 

True Christianity teaches love not hate. Obviously I can't speak for everyone who claims to be a "Christian" but I can say for sure that anyone using homophobic or judgemental language about any minority is not following the message of the bible. Unfortunately there are plenty out there where that is the case.

 

Apologies for the long and perhaps controversial first post but felt I needed to say something. Hopefully I haven't caused offence but just wanted to put across the side of Christianity!

 

And fair play if you managed to read it all...

[80]

13 minutes ago, madras said:

So if I create a religion that includes human sacrifices its ok ?

That's subject to a priest-judge deciding which right they prefer, but either way you'd retain your right to it.

 

NB. I think human rights discourse riddled with horse shit and intellectually bankrupt.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by 80

[Erikse]

5 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

It actually says that everyone is a sinner and gay people are no worse than straight people, but gay sex is a sin (not that all the followers think like that). I've mentioned before I grew up Christian and also think organised religion is ridiculous, but most people don't just happen to hate gays because of their beliefs. A lot of them, quite possibly Guehi here, feel compelled to follow the Bible and might even do it reluctantly, but just accepting they have to. I didn't know anyone who actually wanted to believe gay sex was a sin, let alone hated gays and I've known hundreds of Christians, so I'm in a pretty good place to comment here.

 

As always with these things some of the reactions are ridiculous, including on here. I do think Guehi is foolish for how he's acted, but he'd still be getting stick for just not wearing the armband altogether. Ultimately, people can interpet the meaning of it differently - for some it may just be about anti-discrimination in football, whereas for others it might be something more political and therefore I can understand why followers of Abrahamic religions feel it's incompatible with their beliefs even if it's just down to their interpetations. Why should they be forced to wear something they feel goes against their personal beliefs? Many footballers have quietly not taken part without making a fuss yet have still been made out to be nasty homophobes - it's a far cry from that rugby player explicitly sharing his views on social media.

 

It's like people just don't want nuance and room for subjectivity here. The supposedly tolerant people are very quick to put people in the racist/homophobic/Islamophobic/anti-semitic box without recognising their personal reasons. Funny how people sneer at "the gammons" for getting upset that James McLean doesn't wear a poppy (which he has every right not to, due to his own personal reasons), but that approach doesn't apply for religion. Doesn't want to wear a rainbow flag? Homophobe. Doesn't want to take the knee? Racist. Doesn't want to wear a poppy? IRA supporter.

 

This.. If Guehi was actually being hateful, I would never defend it. But we are just jumping to the conclusion that he hates all gay people because he doesn't seem to fully support pride. It's a massive polarization. I truly doubt that he would actually hate someone for being gay.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Erikse

[GEFAFWISP]

Games gone if he doesn't get a 10 match ban and hefty fine.

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

27 minutes ago, Conjo said:

 

Going back to the point  @AyeDubbleYoo raised a few posts above. How would you feel if our captain refused to wear an anti-racism armband because he though black people were inferior? Genuine question btw. I don't think people choose their sexual orientation or identity same way people don't get to choose the color of their skin.

Your question has two parts. For the first part, I genuinely do not think there is anything in football that interests me less than whether Bruno or Lascelles see fit to wear an anti-racism armband. Beyond my own lack of interest, these campaigns are provably ineffective and a waste of time. For the second part, it would obviously diminish my opinion of them if a player went around saying that Black people were inferiorBut again, this is my personal opinion, and also not equivalent to anything Guehi or Morsy have expressed. It is not as though racism against Blacks/Africans has is a rarity in football, anyway.

 

[Groundhog63]

I'm still trying to figure out how Jesus, a Palestinian/Arab, living in the middle East, had a Dad called Joseph, a Mother called Mary and a boat load of honkey mates like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Peter? Fucking immigrants going over there, stealing our Messiah!!! Mind, no surprise his turncoat pal, Judas, was his token ragheed.

No idea if he turned a blind eye to a bit of same sex fun love either but the Romans AND the Greeks, for that matter, couldn't get enough of it.

 

Lordy, lordy

 

 

 

[Jaqen]

Remember him mentioning during the Euros in an interview his parents wouldn't be at the Sunday game to watch him as they run a church or something. 

 

It's possible that it just put him in a difficult position if his family are prominent figures amongst the Christian community where they live and he's tried to cover all bases by adding the Jesus part. 

 

It's daft either way, like. But there is also a chance he might not necessarily have a massive hatred of gay people. 

[Pablo123]

3 minutes ago, StuToon said:

Extremely long time lurker and first time poster... so apologies in advance!

 

I'll start out by saying I'm a Christian and have been for a long time. I felt I should try and put forward the Christianity side of this debate.

 

Firstly, the bible teaches not to judge. And that means anyone, no matter what the "sin". And it also teaches that all sin is equal.

 

When someone becomes a Christian, it's a complete change of life. It's not something that you just switch on and off, it impacts every aspect of life. But it's hard to get it right all the time and certainly people get it wrong all the time, sometimes to the detriment of the Christian message.

 

Ultimately, Christians believe God teaches that everyone should be and deserves to be loved regardless of their beliefs or lifestyle.

 

I hope that what Marc Guehi was trying to show was that he believes in Jesus but also wanted to show his support for the LGBT community. That Christianity is for all. And that's why he chose to still wear the arm band with a Christian message.

 

True Christianity teaches love not hate. Obviously I can't speak for everyone who claims to be a "Christian" but I can say for sure that anyone using homophobic or judgemental language about any minority is not following the message of the bible. Unfortunately there are plenty out there where that is the case.

 

Apologies for the long and perhaps controversial first post but felt I needed to say something. Hopefully I haven't caused offence but just wanted to put across the side of Christianity!

 

And fair play if you managed to read it all...

I've written out so many things in this thread and deleted them. I completely agree with you. We're taught to love, not hate. Wouldn't be very Christian otherwise

[Kid Icarus]

1 hour ago, DiddyLevine said:

There should be consequences for disagreeing on something ? 

Don't think should comes into it really. It will naturally attract criticism as a consequence and that criticism in itself isn't a restriction on freedom of speech, is also speech, and also shouldn't be restricted. All just a big bowl of everyone giving their two penneth imo.

 

Personally think it's another mountain out of a molehill. To automatically equate a message like that as this, that, or the other is weird imo.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Kid Icarus

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

1 hour ago, Skeletor said:

 

Its not political. We are real people with real lives who just want to be left alone by people who think religious beliefs gives them the right to discriminate or disinclude us from society.

Again, you are telling me the issue is non-political, but we have other posts in this thread expressing that the beliefs of nearly every major world religion are not acceptable in civilized society, as such decided by the Western intelligentsia (the only people with opinions that matter). I empathise with your thoughts on it and don't mean to diminish them, but it is inherently political imo, as is every other significant social movement.

[St. Maximin]

54 minutes ago, Conjo said:

 

Going back to the point  @AyeDubbleYoo raised a few posts above. How would you feel if our captain refused to wear an anti-racism armband because he though black people were inferior? Genuine question btw. I don't think people choose their sexual orientation or identity same way people don't get to choose the color of their skin.

Thing is, that's not what Guehi is doing. There is no evidence whatsoever he thinks the LGBTQ community are inferior. Clearly he's made his interpretation of the rainbow flag that might differ to others, but clearly other people have made their own interpretation of his intentions.

[DiddyLevine]

47 minutes ago, Skeletor said:

 

 

Thats not much of an argument on your behalf . 

 

[Segun Oluwaniyi]

1 hour ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

There’s a lot in that post that would disagree with as premises, but I get what you’re saying. On the other hand, the PL is a global brand and these brands generally have values they feel they need to express because of their presence in society. 

There are countless avenues to express these things that do not put their players in this position, tbh. The entire situation feels unnecessary to me. 

[DiddyLevine]

7 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

Thing is, that's not what Guehi is doing. There is no evidence whatsoever he thinks the LGBTQ community are inferior. Clearly he's made his interpretation of the rainbow flag that might differ to others, but clearly other people have made their own interpretation of his intentions.

This . If he hated gay people then surely he wouldve refused to wear the rainbow armband ? 

[DiddyLevine]

17 minutes ago, Groundhog63 said:

I'm still trying to figure out how Jesus, a Palestinian/Arab, living in the middle East, had a Dad called Joseph, a Mother called Mary and a boat load of honkey mates like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and Peter? Fucking immigrants going over there, stealing our Messiah!!! Mind, no surprise his turncoat pal, Judas, was his token ragheed.

No idea if he turned a blind eye to a bit of same sex fun love either but the Romans AND the Greeks, for that matter, couldn't get enough of it.

 

Lordy, lordy

 

 

 

Jesus was a jew 🤓

[Pablo123]

Let them play football without the worry of offending anyone. We get enough of that from everywhere else.

[Pablo123]

3 minutes ago, DiddyLevine said:

This . If he hated gay people then surely he wouldve refused to wear the rainbow armband ? 

Especially because the rainbow is a symbol of God

[St. Maximin]

1 minute ago, DiddyLevine said:

This . If he hated gay people then surely he wouldve refused to wear the rainbow armband ? 

Yeah, or maybe done something far more explicit. Genuine instances of hatred towards homosexuals in football are obviously a big problem and should be addressed with zero tolerance. This doesn't look like one.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Yeah, we said earlier that we don't really know what he meant by this gesture. Still unfortunate that he felt he couldn't wear the armband as intended though. 

[samptime29]

337 pages on a player who doesn't play for us is wild.

[DiddyLevine]

1 hour ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Anyone can have whatever beliefs they want in private. But some of them can’t be accepted in public in civilised society.  That happens all the time. Someone wouldn’t really be accepted for being racist or hating women or whatever.

 

It’s not an easy argument but that’s the way I lean. 

Id prefer if people were open about their beliefs . Then we could challenge them / argue against 

[Groundhog63]

12 minutes ago, DiddyLevine said:

Jesus was a jew 🤓

Or Ethiopian. Either way not white, obvs.