3 days in and no strong link

[ChezGiven]

I fucking love the 'planning' argument. Its pricelessly not thought through in the slightest bit.

 

Plan = Buy best Left Back we can afford. Best Left back we can afford is interested. Best Left Back is willing to come to club. Another club is also interested in the same player and willing to spend. Other club is more successful than us, or is currently higher in the league. They are talking about a big offer but have not yet moved in the market.

 

How do you plan for that? Offer more money and higher wages? Pay over the odds? How do you know the other club is going to come in or not? Are the other club using the transfer talk as a screen for a strategy elsewhere? Is the agent being truthful? How exactly do you make a plan that accounts for just these very basic permutations in this post?

 

Howay then planners? 

[Howaythelads]

I f***ing love the 'planning' argument. Its pricelessly not thought through in the slightest bit.

 

Plan = Buy best Left Back we can afford. Best Left back we can afford is interested. Best Left Back is willing to come to club. Another club is also interested in the same player and willing to spend. Other club is more successful than us, or is currently higher in the league. They are talking about a big offer but have not yet moved in the market.

 

How do you plan for that? Offer more money and higher wages? Pay over the odds? How do you know the other club is going to come in or not? Are the other club using the transfer talk as a screen for a strategy elsewhere? Is the agent being truthful? How exactly do you make a plan that accounts for just these very basic permutations in this post?

 

Howay then planners? 

 

[ohmelads]

I'd like to think that those who were trying to sound sensible and preaching patience in the summer have learned their lesson.

 

We're going to get ripped off and we have to accept that, it's January and we made a mess of the summer transfer window. It's the reason we paid so much for Boumsong and one year on, lessons have not been learned. We can't afford to wait until summer and if we do I believe we'll be flirting with relegation come May. Look what three and a half months have done to our squad. There are five months of the season left.

 

The most important thing this time is that we don't get another Boumsong but that we get the right man. Price doesn't matter, the cost of not investing now will be far greater come summer. We're in a precarious position, this season is not a write off but equally we are not sitting safe. A few wins puts us challenging for Europe, a few defeats puts us back in the mire. This window could be the turning point of our season, I just don't know which way we'll turn.

[Guest alex]

Long-term strategy wouldn't go a miss though. Slightly different issue I suppose but I'm not sure this has been in place for a good while. I genuinely believe the top sides have this. And without going over too much old ground, while we are always going to struggle competing with Man Utd (and the current Chelsea) I think this is part of the reason we haven't had at least some of the success enjoyed by them plus Liverpool and Arsenal over the past 15 years. Given the money we've spent and the attendances etc. I think we should at least be able to compete with the latter two I mention.

Also, I'm not sure there was much planning/strategy etc. behind our summer dealings. Chasing Kuyt all summer when he was never going to come is just one example. It's hard to plan for the January transfer window though I agree.

[Guest Gemmill]

I fucking love the 'planning' argument. Its pricelessly not thought through in the slightest bit.

 

Plan = Buy best Left Back we can afford. Best Left back we can afford is interested. Best Left Back is willing to come to club. Another club is also interested in the same player and willing to spend. Other club is more successful than us, or is currently higher in the league. They are talking about a big offer but have not yet moved in the market.

 

How do you plan for that? Offer more money and higher wages? Pay over the odds? How do you know the other club is going to come in or not? Are the other club using the transfer talk as a screen for a strategy elsewhere? Is the agent being truthful? How exactly do you make a plan that accounts for just these very basic permutations in this post?

 

Howay then planners? 

 

Sorry, which left back did this happen with?  The only one I know of that we planned to buy was Wayne Bridge, and when the Cole to Chelsea thing looked like it had completely caved (weeks before the window closed), we should have been looking elsewhere.  "Planning" for the possibility that the Cole deal wouldn't happen.  I'm pretty sure that's what I would have done.

 

No one who advocates "planning" is suggesting that your plans can't then be beset with problems btw, so I don't know why you keep suggesting that they do. 

[stozo]

To be fair Tottenham's signings wouldn't be considered major. They signed a 17 year old on loan and signed a backup keeper from Sunderland.

 

Niether signing is going to have a great impact on there chances this season.

[ohmelads]

Long-term strategy wouldn't go a miss though. Slightly different issue I suppose but I'm not sure this has been in place for a good while. I genuinely believe the top sides have this. And without going over too much old ground, while we are always going to struggle competing with Man Utd (and the current Chelsea) I think this is part of the reason we haven't had at least some of the success enjoyed by them plus Liverpool and Arsenal over the past 15 years. Given the money we've spent and the attendances etc. I think we should at least be able to compete with the latter two I mention.

Also, I'm not sure there was much planning/strategy etc. behind our summer dealings. Chasing Kuyt all summer when he was never going to come is just one example. It's hard to plan for the January transfer window though I agree.

 

Do we have the luxury to be thinking long-term?

 

Are these clubs successful because they think long-term, or do they have the luxury of thinking long-term because they have the successful foundations in place? It's a bit of both I think.

 

As the saying goes, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I believe that Newcastle's position being as it is, we need to act to stop ourselves from sliding. Thinking long term is a nice soundbite and sounds like the voice of reason but when you look at our squad right now I'm not sure we have that luxury. I think we need to sort ourselves out and steady the ship before we start plotting our long-term course.

[ChezGiven]

I fucking love the 'planning' argument. Its pricelessly not thought through in the slightest bit.

 

Plan = Buy best Left Back we can afford. Best Left back we can afford is interested. Best Left Back is willing to come to club. Another club is also interested in the same player and willing to spend. Other club is more successful than us, or is currently higher in the league. They are talking about a big offer but have not yet moved in the market.

 

How do you plan for that? Offer more money and higher wages? Pay over the odds? How do you know the other club is going to come in or not? Are the other club using the transfer talk as a screen for a strategy elsewhere? Is the agent being truthful? How exactly do you make a plan that accounts for just these very basic permutations in this post?

 

Howay then planners? 

 

Sorry, which left back did this happen with?  The only one I know of that we planned to buy was Wayne Bridge, and when the Cole to Chelsea thing looked like it had completely caved (weeks before the window closed), we should have been looking elsewhere.  "Planning" for the possibility that the Cole deal wouldn't happen.  I'm pretty sure that's what I would have done.

 

No one who advocates "planning" is suggesting that your plans can't then be beset with problems btw, so I don't know why you keep suggesting that they do. 

 

Well, as alex has just highlighted, when the Kuyt deal started to look like it was going tits up, the Martins deal kicked into place (on appearance anyway, we dont know the truth). Surely that was good planning?

 

As for the Bridge scenario, if the alternative is expensive and a risk in terms of attitude and character, would you rather not gamble on getting the right player than take a shit fall back position before the deadline?

 

Tranfers are like playing poker with other clubs. If you dont win but at the same time dont lose out by panicing and going for someone not good enough for the club then thats fine by me.

 

I was also referring to this window in the scenario above, meaning that its even harder to get right with less time to do it.

[Guest alex]

Long-term strategy wouldn't go a miss though. Slightly different issue I suppose but I'm not sure this has been in place for a good while. I genuinely believe the top sides have this. And without going over too much old ground, while we are always going to struggle competing with Man Utd (and the current Chelsea) I think this is part of the reason we haven't had at least some of the success enjoyed by them plus Liverpool and Arsenal over the past 15 years. Given the money we've spent and the attendances etc. I think we should at least be able to compete with the latter two I mention.

Also, I'm not sure there was much planning/strategy etc. behind our summer dealings. Chasing Kuyt all summer when he was never going to come is just one example. It's hard to plan for the January transfer window though I agree.

 

Do we have the luxury to be thinking long-term?

 

Are these clubs successful because they think long-term, or do they have the luxury of thinking long-term because they have the successful foundations in place?

 

As the saying goes, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I believe that Newcastle's position being as it is, we need to act to stop ourselves from sliding. Thinking long term is a nice soundbite and sounds like the voice of reason but when you look at our squad right now I'm not sure we have that luxury. I think we need to sort ourselves out and steady the ship before we start plotting our long-term course.

On the contrary, I don't think we can afford to not be thinking long-term (assuming we aren't - difficult to say for sure but that's the impression I get) and if we haven't got foundations in place, what has the board been doing for the last x amount of years? Rhetorical question btw  bluewink.gif

[Howaythelads]

Long-term strategy wouldn't go a miss though. Slightly different issue I suppose but I'm not sure this has been in place for a good while. I genuinely believe the top sides have this. And without going over too much old ground, while we are always going to struggle competing with Man Utd (and the current Chelsea) I think this is part of the reason we haven't had at least some of the success enjoyed by them plus Liverpool and Arsenal over the past 15 years. Given the money we've spent and the attendances etc. I think we should at least be able to compete with the latter two I mention.

Also, I'm not sure there was much planning/strategy etc. behind our summer dealings. Chasing Kuyt all summer when he was never going to come is just one example. It's hard to plan for the January transfer window though I agree.

 

Alex

 

We were actually ahead of Liverpool in the league until Robson lost the plot and then Souness arrived. I don't want to go over old ground either, but it all comes back to one shit managerial appointment that messed it all up.

 

It's not planning per se in terms of transfers as people are talking about now, but a plan I would have liked to have seen played out would have been moving Robson on without a rush after we finished 3rd. It wouldn't have been a popular move by the Board mind, but I'd have done it because that's when the signs first started to appear.

[Guest jackmisfit]

"we should have been looking elsewhere"

They did seem to be very last minute and hurried. They pinned their hopes on landing Bridge, which was contingent on Chelsea getting Cole. They let everything go down to the wire and picked up plan 9, Ollie Bernard. You'd think they would have had better "just in case" alternatives planned out.

I do think all of this is knee jerk anyways. Every team out there is waiting to see who Chelsea buys and for how much. Once that gets sorted out, everything else will go quickly.

[Guest jackmisfit]

If they decide to think long term, then why not buy a few young, talented players and either play them in the reserve squad or loan them out? It would be better to build young talent from within that you groom into your team than to always look to poach a starting player from somewhere else.

[ChezGiven]

.

I do think all of this is knee jerk anyways. Every team out there is waiting to see who Chelsea buys and for how much. Once that gets sorted out, everything else will go quickly.

 

Precisely. Not masters of our own destiny.

[James]

In the end, our summer transfers turned out alright - we have instead sufferred due to injuries.

 

I'm sure by the end of the window, we will have all the players we need for the next 5 months, and maybe even have a few players in who can greatly improve the club's long-term fortunes.

[Guest alex]

Long-term strategy wouldn't go a miss though. Slightly different issue I suppose but I'm not sure this has been in place for a good while. I genuinely believe the top sides have this. And without going over too much old ground, while we are always going to struggle competing with Man Utd (and the current Chelsea) I think this is part of the reason we haven't had at least some of the success enjoyed by them plus Liverpool and Arsenal over the past 15 years. Given the money we've spent and the attendances etc. I think we should at least be able to compete with the latter two I mention.

Also, I'm not sure there was much planning/strategy etc. behind our summer dealings. Chasing Kuyt all summer when he was never going to come is just one example. It's hard to plan for the January transfer window though I agree.

 

Alex

 

We were actually ahead of Liverpool in the league until Robson lost the plot and then Souness arrived. I don't want to go over old ground either, but it all comes back to one shit managerial appointment that messed it all up.

 

It's not planning per se in terms of transfers as people are talking about now, but a plan I would have liked to have seen played out would have been moving Robson on without a rush after we finished 3rd. It wouldn't have been a popular move by the Board mind, but I'd have done it because that's when the signs first started to appear.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

[Guest alex]

In the end, our summer transfers turned out alright - we have instead sufferred due to injuries.

 

I'm sure by the end of the window, we will have all the players we need for the next 5 months, and maybe even have a few players in who can greatly improve the club's long-term fortunes.

Not sure about that mate:

Martins - done ok, jury's out

Le Sib - lucky last minute signing but he's turned out to be a God send.

Duff - Looked shit when fit.

Bernard - ahem.

Rossi - barely played and now gone.

 

Could have been worse. Could have been better though.

 

[Guest kingdawson]

We are in a desperate position in terms of who we can play in the next game. One or two players coming in would help a great deal. It doesn't have to be millions spent, loans, swaps or any kind of good buying from the club would of done.

 

We've two difficult games coming up, we lose against Birmingham and half our hope for the remainder of the season is gone, and with the team were going to put out against them, there is a distinct possibility that will happen.

 

I assume you're talking about defenders here. Do you really think that signing new defenders to play in a game less than a week away alongside players they have never even trained with before will significantly improve the defense for that game?

 

Tottenham, a club with a very good buying policy went out and secured players they wanted from the off, good on them, its why they are currently a step ahead of us, and their depth will no doubt show the game after our FA cup tie, while were probably still scratching our heads, and players values keep rising as our desperation kicks in.

 

Is this the same Tottenham who have been able to play their first choice defense for the vast majority of the season and have conceeded the same number of goals as our makeshift one?

 

no actually we havent. King's been out fot a while as has chimbonda.

[NE5]

We are in a desperate position in terms of who we can play in the next game. One or two players coming in would help a great deal. It doesn't have to be millions spent, loans, swaps or any kind of good buying from the club would of done.

 

We've two difficult games coming up, we lose against Birmingham and half our hope for the remainder of the season is gone, and with the team were going to put out against them, there is a distinct possibility that will happen.

 

I assume you're talking about defenders here. Do you really think that signing new defenders to play in a game less than a week away alongside players they have never even trained with before will significantly improve the defense for that game?

 

Tottenham, a club with a very good buying policy went out and secured players they wanted from the off, good on them, its why they are currently a step ahead of us, and their depth will no doubt show the game after our FA cup tie, while were probably still scratching our heads, and players values keep rising as our desperation kicks in.

 

Is this the same Tottenham who have been able to play their first choice defense for the vast majority of the season and have conceeded the same number of goals as our makeshift one?

 

Its not unknown for professionals who are the top of their game (EPL standard) to be able to adapt quickly in certain situations. I'm sure an experienced defender will be able to put in an astute performance even though he doesn't know his team mates, it happens at NT level all the time, players are in and out of the squad and I'm sure one of these professional athletes with 10 years in the game could easily out perform a 17-19 year old who's played 2-3 games with the senior team, and probably only had 3-4 weeks training with the 1st team under their belt anyway.

 

But on your point, when we do get new defenders in we must wait even longer for them to settle, so end of Feb or March should do it.  :roll:

 

I'm sure the current lot will hold out till then.

 

Which other Tottenham do you know of?

 

nice dodge of the question there.

 

Don't let facts and a cliche of the moment get in the way of an opinion 

[NE5]

We are in a desperate position in terms of who we can play in the next game. One or two players coming in would help a great deal. It doesn't have to be millions spent, loans, swaps or any kind of good buying from the club would of done.

 

We've two difficult games coming up, we lose against Birmingham and half our hope for the remainder of the season is gone, and with the team were going to put out against them, there is a distinct possibility that will happen.

 

I assume you're talking about defenders here. Do you really think that signing new defenders to play in a game less than a week away alongside players they have never even trained with before will significantly improve the defense for that game?

 

Tottenham, a club with a very good buying policy went out and secured players they wanted from the off, good on them, its why they are currently a step ahead of us, and their depth will no doubt show the game after our FA cup tie, while were probably still scratching our heads, and players values keep rising as our desperation kicks in.

 

Is this the same Tottenham who have been able to play their first choice defense for the vast majority of the season and have conceeded the same number of goals as our makeshift one?

 

Its not unknown for professionals who are the top of their game (EPL standard) to be able to adapt quickly in certain situations. I'm sure an experienced defender will be able to put in an astute performance even though he doesn't know his team mates, it happens at NT level all the time, players are in and out of the squad and I'm sure one of these professional athletes with 10 years in the game could easily out perform a 17-19 year old who's played 2-3 games with the senior team, and probably only had 3-4 weeks training with the 1st team under their belt anyway.

 

But on your point, when we do get new defenders in we must wait even longer for them to settle, so end of Feb or March should do it.  :roll:

 

I'm sure the current lot will hold out till then.

 

Which other Tottenham do you know of?

 

Well I know he's not a defender, I'm not sure he's even a footballer tbh, but your theory of an experienced player being able to perform this quickly didn't apply to Luque, for example. 

 

Two games then injured for some several months will do that tbh, then again, am not talking about buying foreign players either.

 

But lets not turn this in to another Luque thread, i'd rather concede the point than talk about him all day. 

 

Why would it turn into a Luque thread unless his rent-boys come screaming to his defence like a load of girls? Fact is he's an experienced player who certainly hasn't been able to do a thing even after all this time, let alone after a couple of days.

 

I'd rather they took their time and bring in the right players. This won't be easy if we're going for the right quality.

 

Getting the right player can take time, and it can take a few days.

 

Just because the club is waiting or hasn't signed anyone doesn't mean the player that comes in is going to be of any better quality than one signed now. It could quite possibly be the other way round as when desperation kicks in, even crap players values start to rise come the window closing.

 

there are obviously about 90 clubs in the country with no "plan" ..... 

[NE5]

I fucking love the 'planning' argument. Its pricelessly not thought through in the slightest bit.

 

Plan = Buy best Left Back we can afford. Best Left back we can afford is interested. Best Left Back is willing to come to club. Another club is also interested in the same player and willing to spend. Other club is more successful than us, or is currently higher in the league. They are talking about a big offer but have not yet moved in the market.

 

How do you plan for that? Offer more money and higher wages? Pay over the odds? How do you know the other club is going to come in or not? Are the other club using the transfer talk as a screen for a strategy elsewhere? Is the agent being truthful? How exactly do you make a plan that accounts for just these very basic permutations in this post?

 

Howay then planners? 

 

it seems the "planners" don't have a "plan" or even a "plan B" 

[NE5]

If they decide to think long term, then why not buy a few young, talented players and either play them in the reserve squad or loan them out? It would be better to build young talent from within that you groom into your team than to always look to poach a starting player from somewhere else.

 

Jeanarse, Bramble, Ambrose, Viana, Lua Lua, Bernard ring any bells ??

 

Not being funny mate because its a fair point on paper, but I see many people making statements that say the club doesn't do things, when they in fact do, and the list of players above is absolute proof that such an idea or strategy guarantees nothing.

 

It always boils down to the same thing, which is the judgement of the manager. And there is only 1 League Title, 1 FA Cup, and european places for the top sides, of which we have had a canny few of those european spots.

 

 

[UV]

no actually we havent. King's been out fot a while as has chimbonda.

 

King's missed 6 league games & Chimbonda a whopping 2 (two) since you signed him. Injury crisis!!!

[Dokko]

I fucking love the 'planning' argument. Its pricelessly not thought through in the slightest bit.

 

Plan = Buy best Left Back we can afford. Best Left back we can afford is interested. Best Left Back is willing to come to club. Another club is also interested in the same player and willing to spend. Other club is more successful than us, or is currently higher in the league. They are talking about a big offer but have not yet moved in the market.

 

How do you plan for that? Offer more money and higher wages? Pay over the odds? How do you know the other club is going to come in or not? Are the other club using the transfer talk as a screen for a strategy elsewhere? Is the agent being truthful? How exactly do you make a plan that accounts for just these very basic permutations in this post?

 

Howay then planners? 

 

it seems the "planners" don't have a "plan" or even a "plan B" 

 

Why are you banging on about a plan?

 

Is this all you have to say?

 

Pathetic tbh.

 

Another NE5 super thread with NE5 talking utter shit and boring everyone to death.

 

Well done you troll. 

[Lloydie]

Planning (as I'd see it) would work like this.

 

We've got Robbie Elliot at left back, no natural left back in the academy. So we buy Babayaro.

 

We know Robbie's not going to last long, so we need to either buy a left back to cover for Babayaro or someone who can turn him into cover for them.

 

So the moment we signed Babayaro we should have been looking to build up a list of available left backs, scouting potential targets etc. So come now Freddy and Glenn should be sitting down with a list of 20 left backs from around the world who we'd believe to be of a suitable standard and realistically priced (even if not available).

 

The investment required to identify and keep tabs on say 250 potential targets from outside the Premiership wouldn't be that high. Maybe .5 million a season for 2-3 scouts, a lot of travel expenses and subscriptions to every satellite TV channel going. You'd pay it off the first time you bought a good player cheaply. I'd see it as the job of the manager and his assistants to know the division / league we're actually in.

 

Here's a piece on Recreativo in Spain who picked up 17 signings *for free* are are now doing well in La Liga. The players are out there if you look, and if you look all the time - well you'll find them more often.

 

"Mendoza got a plastic toy, two Pepsi glasses, a collection of fridge magnets and almost an entire new squad. All for free. He bought Florent Sinama Pongolle on loan from Liverpool with a €4m option to buy, Mario from Valladolid, Javi Guerrero from Racing, Beto from Bordeaux, Javier López Vallejo from Osasuna, and César Arzo and Santi Cazorla from Villarreal, while withstanding a €6m offer for Nigerian striker Ikechukwu Uche.

 

In total 17 new players arrived and, under coach Marcelino García, the results have been spectacular. "

 

Whole piece at http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/12/21/recreativo_rip_up_the_form_boo.html

[Guest alex]

I like you're thinking Lloydie.