Looks like we really have no money

[Guest Johan]

The dynamic duo is back I see. Would like to ask NE5 the same questions I asked HTL.

 

Above all I would like to know, are you truly still happy with the board? And if so, why? I would also like it if you did not answer with "It is better than the one we had in the 80´s"

 

Listen mate, at the end of the day, you know very little about this club. People like me and HTL attempt to wise you up but you don't listen or want to listen. I don't mean to sound patronising, but you give me very little choice.

 

Newcastle United does not have a divine right to be one of the top clubs in the country. There are numerous other clubs who were above us for decades - that should not have been. That could just as easily happen again if we really did have a shite board. Look down the road at Sunderland if you don't believe me. That is, if you know where Sunderland is or know anything about them and their potential too. Take these comments on board if you like, or don't if you don't want to, but if you wish to remain largely ignorant of the reality of our situation and the progress we have made under this board, that is your choice.

 

 

 

I guess I should thank you and HTL for your "education" then  As some of the posters here have said, no I dont think we have some kind of divine right to be in the top four or anything. However I think that there right now is a lot of potential in the club and its brand. We happened to have some success at exactly the right time when football really exploded and in a way I think we are still living on some of that which Keegan and the board at that time built up. 

 

Maybe this is where the biggest difference in opinions between me and the two of you lie. I really think that Newcastle as a brand and club have the potential to be some kind of a dark horse in the premiership year after year and maybe you dont?

 

Maybe we also differ in the way we look at the club, I see it more as a business that should operate as such. If the man in charge fail, he gets replaced. Even if we dont change owners we could hire someone to run the club, like Kenyon at Chelsea.

 

If i where to sum this up into a question for you to answer it would be something like. Dont you think that the success we have had motivates raising the goals of the club and the expectations of the fans? Or does prior success excuse mistakes and bad times that comes after?

 

PS. yes I know what Sunderland is and where it is located. Though my father raised me to never motivate my failures by saying stuff like " that guy did even worse"

[Howaythelads]

[OzzieMandias]

By that logic then HTL there's no point in discussing anything. Sounds fun!

 

Not at all, just so long as people realise the hatred of Fred tripe they post is not based on fact. Nor is the recent trend to the daily references to a lack of planning. Does anybody on this forum know what is happening inside the club? I don't, that's for sure. Nor do I believe everything uttered by Roeder or FS, both will say what they are expected to say and they have no duty to spill the beans to the supporters.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not Fred is incompetent, the Board has a history of releasing funds for new players to the point they are slagged off for paying transfer fees that are too high and for shelling out too much on wages. People can't have it both ways. They get slagged for over spending and then slagged for not spending. 

 

If the club isn't able to bring players in right now there will be a reason and it won't be down to the the latest and greatest craze of pointing to a lack of planning or the Board being tight fisted.

 

It seems that some people think that if they post certain criticisms often enough they will become facts.

 

Speaking personally, I'd like our club to be run by someone who knows what they're doing.

 

However you slice it, we're one of the world's richest clubs and we're going into our third transfer window in a row without any money.

 

It is Fat Fred who has managed us into this situation, and no one else.

 

I do understand that context is difficult for some.

 

And the big picture impossible for others.

 

We're one of the 20 richest clubs in the world. We've got no money to spend -- again! -- even though we desperately need reinforcements.

 

What's to blame? Gremlins? The weather? Or, just a wild and crazy guess here, the people who are actually running the club?

 

Again?

 

Your post above shows that you don't understand the tiny picture, let alone the big picture.

 

Same old insults, no actual argument.

 

Who runs the club?

 

(Posters who don't have their heads stuck up their arses may find it easier to answer this question.)

 

Heads? Arses?

 

If you need any help telling the difference between the two, feel free to ask.

[OzzieMandias]

By that logic then HTL there's no point in discussing anything. Sounds fun!

 

Not at all, just so long as people realise the hatred of Fred tripe they post is not based on fact. Nor is the recent trend to the daily references to a lack of planning. Does anybody on this forum know what is happening inside the club? I don't, that's for sure. Nor do I believe everything uttered by Roeder or FS, both will say what they are expected to say and they have no duty to spill the beans to the supporters.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not Fred is incompetent, the Board has a history of releasing funds for new players to the point they are slagged off for paying transfer fees that are too high and for shelling out too much on wages. People can't have it both ways. They get slagged for over spending and then slagged for not spending. 

 

If the club isn't able to bring players in right now there will be a reason and it won't be down to the the latest and greatest craze of pointing to a lack of planning or the Board being tight fisted.

 

It seems that some people think that if they post certain criticisms often enough they will become facts.

 

Speaking personally, I'd like our club to be run by someone who knows what they're doing.

 

However you slice it, we're one of the world's richest clubs and we're going into our third transfer window in a row without any money.

 

It is Fat Fred who has managed us into this situation, and no one else.

 

I do understand that context is difficult for some.

 

And the big picture impossible for others.

 

We're one of the 20 richest clubs in the world. We've got no money to spend -- again! -- even though we desperately need reinforcements.

 

What's to blame? Gremlins? The weather? Or, just a wild and crazy guess here, the people who are actually running the club?

 

and before the Halls and Shepherd we were ?

 

They bought your idol Tina Arsprilla too, you know that bloke who scored 2 league goals in a season you said was "a success".

 

Its also about time you dug the dirt on the club to a scumbag Lundon journo again ........

 

 

 

Who's a naughty boy, then? Pretty Craigie! Pretty Craigie!

[BottledDog]

 

What do you even mean by that?

[Howaythelads]

 

What do you even mean by that?

 

Have a guess.

[BottledDog]

 

What do you even mean by that?

 

Have a guess.

 

Well I assume it means that you are mocking his post as being a bit thick, which is a shame, though I have to say that I'm not entirely sure if there are any other ways in which you are supposed to interpret it. That is why I asked.

[NE5]

The dynamic duo is back I see. Would like to ask NE5 the same questions I asked HTL.

 

Above all I would like to know, are you truly still happy with the board? And if so, why? I would also like it if you did not answer with "It is better than the one we had in the 80´s"

 

Listen mate, at the end of the day, you know very little about this club. People like me and HTL attempt to wise you up but you don't listen or want to listen. I don't mean to sound patronising, but you give me very little choice.

 

Newcastle United does not have a divine right to be one of the top clubs in the country. There are numerous other clubs who were above us for decades - that should not have been. That could just as easily happen again if we really did have a shite board. Look down the road at Sunderland if you don't believe me. That is, if you know where Sunderland is or know anything about them and their potential too. Take these comments on board if you like, or don't if you don't want to, but if you wish to remain largely ignorant of the reality of our situation and the progress we have made under this board, that is your choice.

 

 

 

I guess I should thank you and HTL for your "education" then  As some of the posters here have said, no I dont think we have some kind of divine right to be in the top four or anything. However I think that there right now is a lot of potential in the club and its brand. We happened to have some success at exactly the right time when football really exploded and in a way I think we are still living on some of that which Keegan and the board at that time built up. 

 

Maybe this is where the biggest difference in opinions between me and the two of you lie. I really think that Newcastle as a brand and club have the potential to be some kind of a dark horse in the premiership year after year and maybe you dont?

 

Maybe we also differ in the way we look at the club, I see it more as a business that should operate as such. If the man in charge fail, he gets replaced. Even if we dont change owners we could hire someone to run the club, like Kenyon at Chelsea.

 

If i where to sum this up into a question for you to answer it would be something like. Dont you think that the success we have had motivates raising the goals of the club and the expectations of the fans? Or does prior success excuse mistakes and bad times that comes after?

 

PS. yes I know what Sunderland is and where it is located. Though my father raised me to never motivate my failures by saying stuff like " that guy did even worse"

 

the alternative, and difference in outlook, is quite simple

 

I support the football club, from the heart. And have a realistic view of football as such.

 

You support the "brand", and if you wish to support a "brand", you should have chosen a more successful "brand" if the 5th best in the country over the span of a decade isn't enough for you.

 

And, in football terms, it is far from "failure", as 87 other clubs will tell you, especially when they all watch us playing - again - in the UEFA Cup soon.

 

Whether you like it or not, the current board, since taking over the club in 1992, HAVE raised the expectations of the club and supporters during their time in charge. This is what myself, HTL and one or two others are trying to put across. So you are back to square 1. Accept it or not.

 

 

 

[NE5]

By that logic then HTL there's no point in discussing anything. Sounds fun!

 

Not at all, just so long as people realise the hatred of Fred tripe they post is not based on fact. Nor is the recent trend to the daily references to a lack of planning. Does anybody on this forum know what is happening inside the club? I don't, that's for sure. Nor do I believe everything uttered by Roeder or FS, both will say what they are expected to say and they have no duty to spill the beans to the supporters.

 

It doesn't matter whether or not Fred is incompetent, the Board has a history of releasing funds for new players to the point they are slagged off for paying transfer fees that are too high and for shelling out too much on wages. People can't have it both ways. They get slagged for over spending and then slagged for not spending. 

 

If the club isn't able to bring players in right now there will be a reason and it won't be down to the the latest and greatest craze of pointing to a lack of planning or the Board being tight fisted.

 

It seems that some people think that if they post certain criticisms often enough they will become facts.

 

Speaking personally, I'd like our club to be run by someone who knows what they're doing.

 

However you slice it, we're one of the world's richest clubs and we're going into our third transfer window in a row without any money.

 

It is Fat Fred who has managed us into this situation, and no one else.

 

I do understand that context is difficult for some.

 

And the big picture impossible for others.

 

We're one of the 20 richest clubs in the world. We've got no money to spend -- again! -- even though we desperately need reinforcements.

 

What's to blame? Gremlins? The weather? Or, just a wild and crazy guess here, the people who are actually running the club?

 

and before the Halls and Shepherd we were ?

 

They bought your idol Tina Arsprilla too, you know that bloke who scored 2 league goals in a season you said was "a success".

 

Its also about time you dug the dirt on the club to a scumbag Lundon journo again ........

 

 

 

Who's a naughty boy, then? Pretty Craigie! Pretty Craigie!

 

who avoids the question, again, then ?

 

Pretty mackem WUM, pretty mackem WUM

[Cajun]

Wow this thread seems very mature, well done guys!

[NE5]

Wow this thread seems very mature, well done guys!

 

I am pleased you realise that Ozzie contributes very little, as always.

 

 

[Howaythelads]

 

What do you even mean by that?

 

Have a guess.

 

Well I assume it means that you are mocking his post as being a bit thick, which is a shame, though I have to say that I'm not entirely sure if there are any other ways in which you are supposed to interpret it. That is why I asked.

 

NE5 has gone on record as saying he's been supporting the club for over 40 years, I think the post that was directed toward him is just a little bit daft when you take that into account. You won't agree, but hey ho........

[Cajun]

Wow this thread seems very mature, well done guys!

 

I am pleased you realise that Ozzie contributes very little, as always.

 

 

 

I realise there is more than one childish poster which your post summed up quite well.

[Ally]

Wow this thread seems very mature, well done guys!

 

WOOP WOOP!

[NE5]

Wow this thread seems very mature, well done guys!

 

I am pleased you realise that Ozzie contributes very little, as always.

 

 

 

I realise there is more than one childish poster which your post summed up quite well.

 

On the contrary, it was a fairly reasonable debate until the mackem WUM chipped in, but as usual I don't suppose you will see that, being one of those with the same limited and unrealistic outlook ie uninformed and naive

 

 

 

 

[Cajun]

How do you fail to see that "ohhh sir he started it!" is also very immature. Just because someone else acts childish it doesnt make you any better when you respond in the same manner.

 

Ironic that you talk about a limited and unrealistic outlook

[NE5]

How do you fail to see that "ohhh sir he started it!" is also very immature. Just because someone else acts childish it doesnt make you any better when you respond in the same manner.

 

Ironic that you talk about a limited and unrealistic outlook

 

well, its a shame that you are looking for something which isn't there as I didn't say "sir he started it", I just deservedly took the piss out of the mackem WUM for his usual informative and limited posting, without expecting or asking you to comment on it at all.

 

[Cajun]

Love the way you and the other one turn everything round to be directed at just you!

 

Well done

[NE5]

Love the way you and the other one turn everything round to be directed at just you!

 

Well done

 

what an immature, one sided view

 

 

[Lloydie]

First, having spent the money you had in the past doesn't mean you can magically spend money you don't have in the future.

 

Second, I'm tired of this, so I'm trying to read the accounts. First thing I've discovered is that this http://www.nufc.premiumtv.co.uk/staticFiles/16/a9/0,,10278~43286,00.pdf is scanned in from a paper copy. Take a look at page 8. Some of the other documents are missing! Not exactly a sign of the club taking it's responsibilities toward the shareholders seriously. <a href="http://www.bp.com/PublicationArchiveListingIssueSorterAction.do?categoryId=9010688&contentId=7021119&issueDate=All&sortType=Date">This is what it should look like.</a> Anyway...

 

2005 saw us more or less break even with 87 mio in revenue, 6 million profit

2006 sucked (no Europe) so 83 mio in revenue, 6 million loss

2007 back in Europe, slightly worse luck in the cups so maybe about 87-90 mio again after some inflation etc.

 

The main reason for the losses in 2006 is the difference is Amortisation of Player Registrations. When you buy a player you add them to your books as an asset at the price you paid. You then write them off over the length of their contract. So sign a player for 5 mio cash up from on a 5 year deal and here's what your books show

 

Year 0 (day of signing) : cash position -5 mio, assets +5 mio, change in balance sheet, 0

Year 1 : Cash position still -5mio, assets +4 mio, change in balance sheet -1

 

and so on till

 

Year 5 : Cash position -5 mio, assets 0 mio, change in balance sheet -5.

 

What this means is that the effect on the balance sheet (not the operating profit / loss) is based on the average of your transfers over the previous five years (assuming all contracts are five years). Up unitil Souness went on the lash our amortisation had been running at about 10 mio a year. After the big spending it went up to 16 mio a year and we're going to be paying there or there abouts for the next few years.

 

That means that this year we're going to lose money again unless some sort of cost cutting miracle has taken place behind the scenes. Most of our costs are wages. The most recent numbers didn't include a full year of wages for Martins and Duff, which probably makes up for Shearer no longer being on the wage bill. Wages to revenue remains a thoroughly unhealthy 63%.

 

While we're not operating in Leeds United territory yet we are heading that way. Once we stopped qualifying for the Champions League we were living beyond our means, and since we've failed to get back there we're getting further and further into debt. Our costs of finance (interest payments) went up from 5.6 to 6.3 mio last year. Since we're making losses again that's going to get worse again.

 

Perhaps the most interesting number is that net assets (everything we've got minus everything we owe, but not including players which count as intangibles) was 16 mio. A year earlier it had been 30 mio. That's a number banks are going to look at very closely since it's basically what they can get if we default on our loans - as Leeds discovered once clubs know you're in financial trouble they won't pay you good money for players. There's also a wierd rule that means football related debts have seniority, so clubs we still owe money to on transfers get first rights to cash in the event of a liquidation. That puts off banks from investing in risky clubs even more. *

 

Cash on hand was 9.3 mio, in June a year earlier it was 17 mio.

 

Basically all this means that we are running short and spending on a big money signing without selling first would be taking a big risk with the long term financial health of the club. If we don't get into Europe this season we'll be a selling club in the summer.

 

* Not to say we're risky atm, but every loan is assessed as a risk and for this reason football clubs are riskier than other businesses and so pay higher interest or get less credit...

[Howaythelads]

I hope those people who are screaming for new signings right now read your post properly and understand it. I also hope those people who appear to think we should bring in half a team every transfer window also understand it.

 

As I said earlier, the position we're in can all be traced back to one thing, the appointment of Souness. A huge mistake.

[Cajun]

Signing Duff didnt exactly help either tbh, we could have got McCarthy for less who I believe scored his 15th goal of the season today!

[BottledDog]

I hope those people who are screaming for new signings right now read your post properly and understand it. I also hope those people who appear to think we should bring in half a team every transfer window also understand it.

 

As I said earlier, the position we're in can all be traced back to one thing, the appointment of Souness. A huge mistake.

 

An apointment almost worth resigning over.

Even after Souness' departure Shepherd was still quoted as not understanding why the fans were on his back from the start, showing a shocking lack of insight or even much of an interest in finding out.

 

Ah well, he was quoted as saying that he effectively had to get the next appopinment right or he would have to go. Lets hope it all works and he leaves with a big trophy in his wake, but if we do continue to falter and fail, I hope that this time, he keeps to his word.

[Guest thommo78]

I hope those people who are screaming for new signings right now read your post properly and understand it. I also hope those people who appear to think we should bring in half a team every transfer window also understand it.

 

As I said earlier, the position we're in can all be traced back to one thing, the appointment of Souness. A huge mistake.

 

 

I agree it's a good post but it fails to take into account the increased revenue from TV rights next season. The lowest club is set to recieve a reported 30m with the top clubs st to gain around 50m. This will do one of two things. Immediately and overnight make our finacial position much healthier and drops the wages to revenue ratio. Shearer off the wage bill will also be a help on that front. The second part and one I'm personally worried about is that it will increase the disposable income of all the clubs to spend on players. We could see player valuations rocketing as a result.

 

It's not all doom and gloom. If the casino deal comes off with MGM then our debt etc will look insignificant.

 

My point is you are looking at the financial health of the club on a right now basis. As long as the club are incresing and opening up new revenue streams then we are perfectly sustainable as a club/business. Unfortunately the business model of football clubs at present seems to be "find a wealthy owner to plow personal fortunes into players" Baring a take-over we don't have that choice, however as long as TV rights grow, overseas sales of shirts etc grow and the club are looking at ways to get investment in i.e. the casino/hotel/ground expansion etc we will be positioned for the future of the club.

 

Unfortunately this all translates to us being skint until the summer

 

[tmonkey]

Signing Duff didnt exactly help either tbh, we could have got McCarthy for less who I believe scored his 15th goal of the season today!

 

10 in the Prem, will most likely end up with 15 at least in the Prem and probably nearing 25 by the end of the season overall. Wouldve been a solid player alongside Martins.

 

But Duff's a bigger name, cost Chelsea 17mill, used to be great and was awesome in World Cup 2002. Better to get him than someone who the squad could badly do with.