Crooks- "English football should be ashamed"

[NE5]

The problem that Crooks highlights is simple: there is an under representation of black players in management. One of the reasons for this is that it is white people employing the managers, and since most white people, consciously or subconsciously, are prejudiced or even racist, it is, obviously, more difficult for a black man to enter management.

 

Not "people" I notice, just "white people".

 

I object to being stereotyped and discriminated against because of the colour of my skin.

I think there's a word for that.

 

black, racist, or prejudiced ?

 

[ujpest doza]

Would like to know how many black people have sat the UEFA courses compared to white people then applied for managerial positions.

Part of the problem is that black players who want to become managers have seen the barriers, and consequently don't even bother doing the courses. So, you'll probably find that they are under represented there.

 

Its called hard work and taking a chance, huge barrier everyone faces, the race card is an easy way out as they simply cant be arsed.

Are you saying that black people are lazy?

 

Are you a Black Lesbian Vegan?

 

[Parky]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6375921.stm

 

Football 'excluding' black bosses

By Simon Austin

 

 

Garth Crooks says English football should be "ashamed of itself" because of the lack of black coaches and managers in the game.

 

A BBC Sport investigation has revealed that less than 1% of senior coaching staff at Premiership and Football League clubs are black.

 

"It's shocking that Paul Ince and Keith Curle are the only black managers in the league," BBC reporter Crooks said.

 

"We can't afford to exclude a whole section of society from coaching."

 

Crooks, who won two FA Cups and the Uefa Cup with Spurs, is now a football adviser to the Commission for Racial Equality.

 

He says he had considered a career in management when he finished playing, but a lack of opportunities led to him pursuing a career in the media instead.

 

 

"The opportunities are not there for black players at the moment"

Les Ferdinand

 

 

 

"I made the decision a long time ago that I would be better off making a career in broadcasting rather than management," Crooks said.

 

"I don't see why I should suffer the humiliation of not even getting a reply (to an application)."

 

Former England striker Les Ferdinand says lack of opportunity is still stopping black players going into coaching.

 

Although more than 20% of players at the 92 league clubs are black, only two managers - Macclesfield's Ince and Torquay's Curle - are.

 

"Doing your badges can take five years. Players don't want to give up that amount of time when there's no prospect at the end," Ferdinand told BBC Sport.

 

"The opportunities are not quite there for black managers at the moment."

 

Ferdinand, who scored five goals in 17 appearances for England, is currently taking his Uefa B coaching licence and the certificate in applied management at Warwick University.

 

 

606: DEBATE

" "

Simon Austin

 

 

 

"You don't tend to see black players on the courses," Ferdinand, 40, said.

 

"Most black players I've spoken to say the reason they don't go into coaching is the lack of opportunity.

 

"There seems to be the same thinking about black coaches as there was about black players in the 1970s.

 

"It used to be the case that a manager would look at a black player and think 'he's quick, we'll play him up front or on the wing'. They wouldn't give him a role in the middle.

 

"I think black coaches are being stereotyped in the same way at the moment. You see black people behind the scenes at football clubs, but not at the helm."

 

 

 

Ferdinand, who worked as a coach at Watford last season, says the circumstances of Roy Keane and Paul Ince illustrate the different ways in which black and white managers are treated.

 

Both players were combative midfielders who captained their countries and starred for Manchester United during their illustrious careers.

 

Yet Keane was handed his first managerial opportunity at Championship side Sunderland, while Ince was passed over for the Wolves job before taking the helm at Macclesfield, who were bottom of League Two at the time.

 

"Roy got a job at Sunderland straight away, and good luck to him," Ferdinand said.

 

"Paul Ince had a similar status as Roy as a player, yet he gets a job at Macclesfield."

 

Yet Ferdinand, who scored 382 league goals during his career, says he is determined to pursue a career in management and perhaps become a role model for prospective black coaches.

 

"I'm doing the badges and getting the qualifications - I want to be prepared," he said.

 

"I don't want a job because it's the politically correct thing to do. I want it because I'm the best person available."

 

Sorry Les, but I think that's bullshit.

 

 

I didn't realise the overall figure is that low...It is a bit surprising.

I think Sir Les wouldn't really be making stuff up and he has no axe to grind as he is actually doing the courses.

I thought Ince was 'nailed on' for the Wolves job.

[Guest nameless]

The amount of black players vs. the amount of black managers might be disproportionate if you judge by the number of black players there are today. But when the average age of a manager is 40+ you have to realise there were a lot less black players when todays managers were playing. Give it 10 to 15 years and things will look a lot different.

 

 

[Dokko]

The amount of black players vs. the amount of black managers might be disproportionate if you judge by the number of black players there are today. But when the average age of a manager is 40+ you have to realise there were a lot less black players when todays managers were playing. Give it 10 to 15 years and things will look a lot different.

 

 

 

Tried telling certain people this throughout the thread, your spot on opinion or near as damn it FACT is lost on certain individuals.

 

 

[gazza ladra]

The amount of black players vs. the amount of black managers might be disproportionate if you judge by the number of black players there are today. But when the average age of a manager is 40+ you have to realise there were a lot less black players when todays managers were playing. Give it 10 to 15 years and things will look a lot different.

 

 

 

Tried telling certain people this throughout the thread, your spot on opinion or near as damn it FACT mackems.gif is lost on certain individuals.

 

 

again?

[Dokko]

The amount of black players vs. the amount of black managers might be disproportionate if you judge by the number of black players there are today. But when the average age of a manager is 40+ you have to realise there were a lot less black players when todays managers were playing. Give it 10 to 15 years and things will look a lot different.

 

 

 

Tried telling certain people this throughout the thread, your spot on opinion or near as damn it FACT mackems.gif is lost on certain individuals.

 

 

again?

 

Is it not a fact there are more black players in the game these days than back in the 80s?

 

Are you stupid or thick or are you going to fire more bullshit about America at me in a thread about the game in the UK?

 

[gazza ladra]

The amount of black players vs. the amount of black managers might be disproportionate if you judge by the number of black players there are today. But when the average age of a manager is 40+ you have to realise there were a lot less black players when todays managers were playing. Give it 10 to 15 years and things will look a lot different.

 

 

 

Tried telling certain people this throughout the thread, your spot on opinion or near as damn it FACT mackems.gif is lost on certain individuals.

 

 

again?

 

Is it not a fact there are more black players in the game these days than back in the 80s?

 

Are you stupid or thick?

 

There are facts and there are the conclusions that are drawn from those facts.

 

The fact that there are more players now than there were in the past does not support the other statements that you are offering as FACTS.

 

ie.

that anti-racism campaigns are proof of a lack of racism in club boardrooms

that blacks are too lazy to apply for the correct badges

that blacks can't be arsed to do the work

that racism doesn't exist, isn't that bad, is just an excuse

 

and on and on.

 

I was laughing at your habit of throwing out an opinion (often a ill-considered, prejudiced one) and thinking, apparently, that it is validated by typing the word FACT in uppercase.

 

[Dokko]

The amount of black players vs. the amount of black managers might be disproportionate if you judge by the number of black players there are today. But when the average age of a manager is 40+ you have to realise there were a lot less black players when todays managers were playing. Give it 10 to 15 years and things will look a lot different.

 

 

 

Tried telling certain people this throughout the thread, your spot on opinion or near as damn it FACT mackems.gif is lost on certain individuals.

 

 

again?

 

Is it not a fact there are more black players in the game these days than back in the 80s?

 

Are you stupid or thick?

 

There are facts and there are the conclusions that are drawn from those facts.

 

The fact that there are more players now than there were in the past does not support the other statements that you are offering as FACTS.

 

ie.

that anti-racism campaigns are proof of a lack of racism in club boardrooms

that blacks are too lazy to apply for the correct badges

that blacks can't be arsed to do the work

that racism doesn't exist, isn't that bad, is just an excuse

 

and on and on.

 

I was laughing at your habit of throwing out an opinion (often a ill-considered, prejudiced one) and thinking, apparently, that it is validated by typing the word FACT in uppercase.

 

 

Apart from there are more black players now than then backed with the word FACT (in fact i was agreeing with someone elses opinion and said near as damn it fact)

 

"Its called hard work and taking a chance, huge barrier everyone faces, the race card is an easy way out as they simply cant be arsed."

 

Is the only time i mentioned the word FACT, which TBF i shouldn't of, it was an opinion, but a right one.

 

So really, your point is invalid, again.

 

Not got some American shite to throw in the mix?

 

No?

 

 

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

What a load of shite, football is more pro-black than any other sector of society outside of music, certainly in this country anyway, Crooks is once again talking absolute crap. The low numbers is down to demand, there simply isn't enough of it from black people, as Kris Kamara himself concedes and is quite outspoken whenever commenting on this 'issue'. The likes of Crooks are simply making excuses here for their own shortfalls or lack of drive and ambition. Football is a proven environment for people to succeed if they have the desire, attitude and TALENT, regardless of race, ethnicity, education, background or nationality.

 

The reason why there aren't as many black managers as white managers is simple; there are more white people than black people (DOH!).

 

The reason why so few black people hold a position of management in football is equally simple; because many either don't want to be a manager (clearly), haven't even tried, like Crooks, or fear often imagined racism (again like Crooks).

 

If Sir Les announced to the world he'd like to be a manager, he'd land himself a job tomorrow just on name alone.

 

There are over 1 million coaches in this country, black, white, yellow, whatever, and they all want to be managing Man Utd or whoever, or coaching Wayne Rooneys, yet there are only 92 professional clubs...

 

No, it is far too easy to blame racism and even then, that shouldn't put people off (you'd think it would make people more determined, or it should do), sometimes you have to kick doors down, and black people and other minorities know this better than anyone. This insecurity complex does my head in, it really does, Crooks and Co may as well write "victim" on their foreheads with their attitude and be done with it.

 

If racism or prejudice is a brick wall blocking would-be black managers from getting a job (I'm sure it exists in some circles but nowhere near as bad as portrayed) then someone has to be the sledgehammer. Crooks and Co are failing themselves, and not football failing them.

 

Desire, attitude and above all else - TALENT - prevails in this sport, regardless and that will always be the case. I firmly believe that, for black people, white people, anyone.

[gazza ladra]

 

So really, your point is invalid, again.

 

 

No, not really.

 

I am glad to see that you acknowledge that you should not have added the FACT the statement of opinion. I would hope that you would reconsider that opinion and reflect on how you arrived at that belief.

 

It would be good for you.

[Dokko]

What a load of shite, football is more pro-black than any other sector of society outside of music, certainly in this country anyway, Crooks is once again talking absolute crap. The low numbers is down to demand, there simply isn't enough of it from black people, as Kris Kamara himself concedes and is quite outspoken whenever commenting on this 'issue'. The likes of Crooks are simply making excuses here for their own shortfalls or lack of drive and ambition. Football is a proven environment for people to succeed if they have the desire, attitude and TALENT, regardless of race, ethnicity, education, background or nationality.

 

The reason why there aren't as many black managers as white managers is simple; there are more white people than black people (DOH!).

 

The reason why so few black people hold a position of management in football is equally simple; because many either don't want to be a manager (clearly), haven't even tried, like Crooks, or fear often imagined racism (again like Crooks).

 

If Sir Les announced to the world he'd like to be a manager, he'd land himself a job tomorrow just on name alone.

 

There are over 1 million coaches in this country, black, white, yellow, whatever, and they all want to be managing Man Utd or whoever, or coaching Wayne Rooneys, yet there are only 92 professional clubs...

 

No, it is far too easy to blame racism and even then, that shouldn't put people off (you'd think it would make people more determined, or it should do), sometimes you have to kick doors down, and black people and other minorities know this better than anyone. This insecurity complex does my head in, it really does, Crooks and Co may as well write "victim" on their foreheads with their attitude and be done with it.

 

If racism or prejudice is a brick wall blocking would-be black managers from getting a job (I'm sure it exists in some circles but nowhere near as bad as portrayed) then someone has to be the sledgehammer. Crooks and Co are failing themselves, and not football failing them.

 

Desire, attitude and above all else - TALENT - prevails in this sport, regardless and that will always be the case. I firmly believe that, for black people, white people, anyone.

 

Spot on, 100%

[Dokko]

 

So really, your point is invalid, again.

 

 

No, not really.

 

I am glad to see that you acknowledge that you should not have added the FACT the statement of opinion. I would hope that you would reconsider that opinion and reflect on how you arrived at that belief.

 

It would be good for you.

 

Why would it?

 

It's not going to affect my life in the slightest, and its fuking true.

 

So one fact, yet you made a list of things i said as facts not opinions, you really cant add up or are making this up as you go along.

[Guest Knightrider]

A bigger issue regarding race and football is why so few Asians take to the sport, now that's one issue that needs looked into and I'm not talking about any racism here, because racism never curtailed black kids from taking up the game, despite shocking attitudes at that time.

[Dokko]

A bigger issue regarding race and football is why so few Asians take to the sport, now that's one issue that needs looked into and I'm not talking about any racism here, because racism never curtailed black kids from taking up the game, despite shocking attitudes at that time.

 

Family issues.

 

Their families do not see sports as offering any kind of career.

 

Right in a way, but stops young Asians really going for it.

 

Many Asian athlete or budding athlete will tell you pretty much the same.

[ujpest doza]

What a load of s****, football is more pro-black than any other sector of society outside of music, certainly in this country anyway, Crooks is once again talking absolute crap. The low numbers is down to demand, there simply isn't enough of it from black people, as Kris Kamara himself concedes and is quite outspoken whenever commenting on this 'issue'. The likes of Crooks are simply making excuses here for their own shortfalls or lack of drive and ambition. Football is a proven environment for people to succeed if they have the desire, attitude and TALENT, regardless of race, ethnicity, education, background or nationality.

 

The reason why there aren't as many black managers as white managers is simple; there are more white people than black people (DOH!).

 

The reason why so few black people hold a position of management in football is equally simple; because many either don't want to be a manager (clearly), haven't even tried, like Crooks, or fear often imagined racism (again like Crooks).

 

If Sir Les announced to the world he'd like to be a manager, he'd land himself a job tomorrow just on name alone.

 

There are over 1 million coaches in this country, black, white, yellow, whatever, and they all want to be managing Man Utd or whoever, or coaching Wayne Rooneys, yet there are only 92 professional clubs...

 

No, it is far too easy to blame racism and even then, that shouldn't put people off (you'd think it would make people more determined, or it should do), sometimes you have to kick doors down, and black people and other minorities know this better than anyone. This insecurity complex does my head in, it really does, Crooks and Co may as well write "victim" on their foreheads with their attitude and be done with it.

 

If racism or prejudice is a brick wall blocking would-be black managers from getting a job (I'm sure it exists in some circles but nowhere near as bad as portrayed) then someone has to be the sledgehammer. Crooks and Co are failing themselves, and not football failing them.

 

Desire, attitude and above all else - TALENT - prevails in this sport, regardless and that will always be the case. I firmly believe that, for black people, white people, anyone.

 

Cracking post and spot on.

 

Personally think that Les Ferdinand also has a bit a of a chip on his shoulder re issues like this and should look at the likes of Viv Anderson,Brendan Batson and Cyrille Regis who have made succesful careers for themselves after hanging up their boots without bleating about being hard done to. Anderson and Regis having brief managerial careers before becoming agents and Batson as a successful frontman for the PFA.They suffered a heel of a lot more racism than Crooks or Ferdinand ever did and proved with talent and hard work the rewards are there.

 

[gazza ladra]

 

The reason why there aren't as many black managers as white managers is simple; there are more white people than black people (DOH!).

I disagree. Not the numbers in the total population, but the number of people in the game  provide a better picture of the situation. It is unreasonable to think Asians would be represented, because there are so few in the game. One would expect that there would be more black coaches because there are more that are in the game and, therefore, more that are  qualified.

 

The reason why so few black people hold a position of management in football is equally simple; because many either don't want to be a manager (clearly), haven't even tried, like Crooks, or fear often imagined racism (again like Crooks).

Only those three reasons. Are you positive that it is only three possible reasons?

 

 

No, it is far too easy to blame racism and even then, that shouldn't put people off (you'd think it would make people more determined, or it should do), sometimes you have to kick doors down, and black people and other minorities know this better than anyone. This insecurity complex does my head in, it really does, Crooks and Co may as well write "victim" on their foreheads with their attitude and be done with it.

 

Blame? you don't even acknowledge it is a possibility. It is easier to deny it even exists and to shout down the topic.

If racism or prejudice is a brick wall blocking would-be black managers from getting a job (I'm sure it exists in some circles but nowhere near as bad as portrayed) then someone has to be the sledgehammer. Crooks and Co are failing themselves, and not football failing them.

If? You just stated there are three reasons... and racism wasn't one of them. Ok, anyway, now that you allow that walls might exist (although at best they present only a small obstacle-- not as bad as  portrayed.

 

And  then you have  the gall to blame Crooks for not standing up and break down those walls. Just a minute ago you weren't even allowing for the possibility of racism as a cause and now you are comparing Crooks to a sledgehammer. What the f*** is up with that?

Desire, attitude and above all else - TALENT - prevails in this sport, regardless and that will always be the case. I firmly believe that, for black people, white people, anyone.

Yes. But none of this is as simple or easy as you claim. For you, apparently, it is all crystal clear. I assume that is because you choose not to look at the whole picture.

[Guest Knightrider]

A bigger issue regarding race and football is why so few Asians take to the sport, now that's one issue that needs looked into and I'm not talking about any racism here, because racism never curtailed black kids from taking up the game, despite shocking attitudes at that time.

 

Family issues.

 

Their families do not see sports as offering any kind of career.

 

Right in a way, but stops young Asians really going for it.

 

Many Asian athlete or budding athlete will tell you pretty much the same.

 

Maybe, but Cricket is more than encouraged... The career aspect is a moot point anyway because football is a recreational sport first and foremost, then a spectator sport and lastly a career for the lucky few who are good enough to earn a living from it. Asian kids in the main simply aren't playing football under the recreation umbrella, not that they or anyone has to of course, but there isn't even a handful to name that have went from playing the game as a recreation, watching as a spectator, then playing the game for a living, Chopra is the only one really.

 

Asian fans are increasing, so they are interested in football from a spectator perspective, but there are not many playing at Grassroots level while at professional level... we come back to Chopra.

 

Why? Racism can be a cause, but I don't think it is a big one and again, even so, that shouldn't stop anyone, afterall it didn't stop black kids in the 60s and back then, attitudes towards minorities were shocking.

 

Either way it needs looked into because a potential talent stream is being lost to the game.

[Dokko]

A bigger issue regarding race and football is why so few Asians take to the sport, now that's one issue that needs looked into and I'm not talking about any racism here, because racism never curtailed black kids from taking up the game, despite shocking attitudes at that time.

 

Family issues.

 

Their families do not see sports as offering any kind of career.

 

Right in a way, but stops young Asians really going for it.

 

Many Asian athlete or budding athlete will tell you pretty much the same.

 

Maybe, but Cricket is more than encouraged... The career aspect is a moot point anyway because football is a recreational sport first and foremost, then a spectator sport and lastly a career for the lucky few who are good enough to earn a living from it. Asian kids in the main simply aren't playing football under the recreation umbrella, not that they or anyone has to of course, but there isn't even a handful to name that have went from playing the game as a recreation, watching as a spectator, then playing the game for a living, Chopra is the only one really.

 

Asian fans are increasing, so they are interested in football from a spectator perspective, but there are not many playing at Grassroots level while at professional level... we come back to Chopra.

 

Why? Racism can be a cause, but I don't think it is a big one and again, even so, that shouldn't stop anyone, afterall it didn't stop black kids in the 60s and back then, attitudes towards minorities were shocking.

 

Either way it needs looked into because a potential talent stream is being lost to the game.

 

Sorry like but all the Asians round here do is play football all day every day when they are not working. (I sometimes play with them but the unfitter i get, the bigger tit i make of myself, also my age group go less, new lads play now, which shows generations are in to football)

 

Seriously, just go to Marden Bridge and they've got ever pitch booked when the league is not on.

 

Also these lads play all day every Sunday, and i mean 9am till 7pm.

 

You bring up a good point about cricket, but in Asia cricket is a BIG fuking thing. BIG. My friends dad at nearly 70 still throws a cricket ball about in the back lane, its something inherited, the the father-son tradition we have for football.

[Dokko]

My friend (which i've mentioned on here several times like) should of made it, but was forced into giving it up for the sake of the family business.

 

He was better than Chopra, by a mile.

 

His son, if good enough will only get the best of everything to help him succeed in football, as his father knows how he missed out, and also how much football means in the UK and the world.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

The reason why there aren't as many black managers as white managers is simple; there are more white people than black people (DOH!).

I disagree. Not the numbers in the total population, but the number of people in the game  provide a better picture of the situation. It is unreasonable to think Asians would be represented, because there are so few in the game. One would expect that there would be more black coaches because there are more that are in the game and, therefore, more that are  qualified.

 

The reason why so few black people hold a position of management in football is equally simple; because many either don't want to be a manager (clearly), haven't even tried, like Crooks, or fear often imagined racism (again like Crooks).

Only those three reasons. Are you positive that it is only three possible reasons?

 

 

No, it is far too easy to blame racism and even then, that shouldn't put people off (you'd think it would make people more determined, or it should do), sometimes you have to kick doors down, and black people and other minorities know this better than anyone. This insecurity complex does my head in, it really does, Crooks and Co may as well write "victim" on their foreheads with their attitude and be done with it.

 

Blame? you don't even acknowledge it is a possibility. It is easier to deny it even exists and to shout down the topic.

If racism or prejudice is a brick wall blocking would-be black managers from getting a job (I'm sure it exists in some circles but nowhere near as bad as portrayed) then someone has to be the sledgehammer. Crooks and Co are failing themselves, and not football failing them.

If? You just stated there are three reasons... and racism wasn't one of them. Ok, anyway, now that you allow that walls might exist (although at best they present only a small obstacle-- not as bad as  portrayed.

 

And  then you have  the gall to blame Crooks for not standing up and break down those walls. Just a minute ago you weren't even allowing for the possibility of racism as a cause and now you are comparing Crooks to a sledgehammer. What the f*** is up with that?

Desire, attitude and above all else - TALENT - prevails in this sport, regardless and that will always be the case. I firmly believe that, for black people, white people, anyone.

Yes. But none of this is as simple or easy as you claim. For you, apparently, it is all crystal clear. I assume that is because you choose not to look at the whole picture.

 

Obviously racism is to blame in some quarters (as I've stated already at the end of my post), and I should have highlighted that earlier on in my post, when listing my non-racist reasons as to why black people don't hold positions of power in football, (my bad).

 

My points still stand though, which are:

 

Racism is a brick wall, but not a very big one today. Desire, attitude and TALENT is the biggest wall, for anyone to climb. If you have those things, you will succeed though regardless of race or nationality as football has proven time and time again. That is the beauty about football and why it is the world's most popular sport to play and watch.

 

Regarding this:

 

One would expect that there would be more black coaches because there are more that are in the game and, therefore, more that are  qualified.

 

How many black people have the required badges? How many black people are interested in coaching and management? How many imagine racism where it may not/or does not exist, and therefore don't apply for jobs or go on coaching courses because of that? Indeed how many apply for jobs full stop? John Barnes didn't have to apply for a job, Ince got himself a job, so did Kieth Curle and others. How many academies have you been to? You don't know how many black people work behind the scenes in football as coaches or how many are, as I write, doing their coaching badges.

 

If black people pack up their boots and decied to drop out of football altogether after retiring, because they think chairman only want white managers or white coaches or because the low numbers discourage them, more fool them and do you know what, the game doesn't need people like that who are unwilling to climb walls or smash them down. Racism is a hurdle, a big one without a doubt, for any individual who has to deal with it, but not insurmountable.

 

30-40 years ago, black kids were being jeered at junior games by parents for being black, pelted with bananas and spat at by fellow kids on the opposition team, some of their own team-mates wouldn't even pass to them, they overcome all that to become a permanent fixture of our game, a part of our game's history and today, they are very much a part of its future, as players, managers and coaches, racism or no racism, if they have the desire, attitude and above all else, the talent, they will succeed. They may have to climb a few walls but then, when has life ever been easy, whether you happen to be black or white...

 

I'd say based on the musings of people like Kris Kamara who have spoke in great detail about this issue a number of times now, that it isn't just racist attitudes that need to change, but the attitudes of many would-be black managers or black coaches regarding racism. Kamara thinks one day we'll see many ill-equipped, unskilled black managers in jobs not because they are talented or have earned their spurs, but simply to make up some ridiculous quota, or the result of a sympathy vote, and that would be a real shame and totaly the wrong way to go.

[Parky]

Will learning about race issues etc be part of your training Coach HTT?

[Guest Knightrider]

Will learning about race issues etc be part of your training Coach HTT?

 

Aye, among a whole host of other isses, I imagine anyway or hope so.

[gazza ladra]

Regarding this:

 

One would expect that there would be more black coaches because there are more that are in the game and, therefore, more that are  qualified.

 

How many black people have the required badges? How many black people are interested in coaching and management? How many imagine racism where it may not/or does not exist, and therefore don't apply for jobs or go on coaching courses because of that? Indeed how many apply for jobs full stop? John Barnes didn't have to apply for a job, Ince got himself a job, so did Kieth Curle and others. How many academies have you been to? You don't know how many black people work behind the scenes in football as coaches or how many are, as I write, doing their coaching badges.

 

If black people pack up their boots and decied to drop out of football altogether after retiring, because they think chairman only want white managers or white coaches or because the low numbers discourage them, more fool them and do you know what, the game doesn't need people like that who are unwilling to climb walls or smash them down. Racism is a hurdle, a big one without a doubt, for any individual who has to deal with it, but not insurmountable.

 

30-40 years ago, black kids were being jeered at junior games by parents for being black, pelted with bananas and spat at by fellow kids on the opposition team, some of their own team-mates wouldn't even pass to them, they overcome all that to become a permanent fixture of our game, a part of our game's history and today, they are very much a part of its future, as players, managers and coaches, racism or no racism, if they have the desire, attitude and above all else, the talent, they will succeed. They may have to climb a few walls but then, when has life ever been easy, whether you happen to be black or white...

 

I'd say based on the musings of people like Kris Kamara who have spoke in great detail about this issue a number of times now, that it isn't just racist attitudes that need to change, but the attitudes of many would-be black managers or black coaches regarding racism. Kamara thinks one day we'll see many ill-equipped, unskilled black managers in jobs not because they are talented or have earned their spurs, but simply to make up some ridiculous quota, or the result of a sympathy vote, and that would be a real shame and totaly the wrong way to go.

Fair enough.

 

Earlier in this thread I asked that very question -- how many blacks are acquiring the badges?

 

Comparing the relative percentages of blacks who are acquiring badges versus those that are hired, would be the most telling number and would be the place to start if we want a serious discussion of the topic.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

Regarding this:

 

One would expect that there would be more black coaches because there are more that are in the game and, therefore, more that are  qualified.

 

How many black people have the required badges? How many black people are interested in coaching and management? How many imagine racism where it may not/or does not exist, and therefore don't apply for jobs or go on coaching courses because of that? Indeed how many apply for jobs full stop? John Barnes didn't have to apply for a job, Ince got himself a job, so did Kieth Curle and others. How many academies have you been to? You don't know how many black people work behind the scenes in football as coaches or how many are, as I write, doing their coaching badges.

 

If black people pack up their boots and decied to drop out of football altogether after retiring, because they think chairman only want white managers or white coaches or because the low numbers discourage them, more fool them and do you know what, the game doesn't need people like that who are unwilling to climb walls or smash them down. Racism is a hurdle, a big one without a doubt, for any individual who has to deal with it, but not insurmountable.

 

30-40 years ago, black kids were being jeered at junior games by parents for being black, pelted with bananas and spat at by fellow kids on the opposition team, some of their own team-mates wouldn't even pass to them, they overcome all that to become a permanent fixture of our game, a part of our game's history and today, they are very much a part of its future, as players, managers and coaches, racism or no racism, if they have the desire, attitude and above all else, the talent, they will succeed. They may have to climb a few walls but then, when has life ever been easy, whether you happen to be black or white...

 

I'd say based on the musings of people like Kris Kamara who have spoke in great detail about this issue a number of times now, that it isn't just racist attitudes that need to change, but the attitudes of many would-be black managers or black coaches regarding racism. Kamara thinks one day we'll see many ill-equipped, unskilled black managers in jobs not because they are talented or have earned their spurs, but simply to make up some ridiculous quota, or the result of a sympathy vote, and that would be a real shame and totaly the wrong way to go.

Fair enough.

 

Earlier in this thread I asked that very question -- how many blacks are acquiring the badges?

 

Comparing the relative percentages of blacks who are acquiring badges versus those that are hired, would be the most telling number and would be the place to start if we want a serious discussion of the topic.

 

 

 

Agreed, if stats and facts can prove black players are being held back due to the color of their skin, then we have an issue, at the moment we don't have that so need to be very careful about how we interpret the numbers. The last thing the game needs, and indeed black people, is for Kris Kamara's fears to become reality, i.e. managers and coaches given jobs because of their skin color and not their ability. I'm all for positive discrimination in the right circumstances but not at the expense of ability. That would be counterproductive.

 

What black people need more than anything is a role model, a wall smasher if you like, another Viv Anderson but at managerial/coaching level. Indeed so does the game itself if just to put this issue to bed and give black people hope (it shouldn't matter whether a manager is white or black to anyone, so long as they are good enough), that is why I was pretty harsh on the likes of Crooks and why I feel strongly about their attitudes of "well I'm black, so what's the point", an attitude that pisses me right off.