Guest alex Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 In Italy the main thing they teach you is how to defend and defending tactics How do you know? In Italy one of the most important things is the players to have adequate defensive tactical knowledge. Why do you think in the italian league the vast majority of the teams are playing defensive football. Havent you all of you heard about the "Italian catenacho" Also i said "the main thing" they teach the players. I didnt say that the coaches didnt teach the players the other aspects of the football game. Why do you think the Italian league is the most defensive tactical league in the world? Its not because they accentaute on the techniqual football and attractive football for sure I've heard of Catenaccio if that helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicago_shearer Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 In Italy the main thing they teach you is how to defend and defending tactics Why do they have to teach defending tactics if the strikers seem not be taught how to move off the ball? That's why Italian defences are so good man. They keep the strikers s*** by not teaching them how to attack. Could this be the secret of why Shevchenko failed to adapt? Mourinho should play him at centre half tbh. What Schevchenko doesn't know about defending isn't worth knowing. You want him to score 17 goals and look good doing it as well? Yes, his first touch is obviously poor. But his one and only task as a striker is to score. Which he does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alan Shearer 9 Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 In Italy the main thing they teach you is how to defend and defending tactics How do you know? In Italy one of the most important things is the players to have adequate defensive tactical knowledge. Why do you think in the italian league the vast majority of the teams are playing defensive football. Havent you all of you heard about the "Italian catenacho" Also i said "the main thing" they teach the players. I didnt say that the coaches didnt teach the players the other aspects of the football game. Why do you think the Italian league is the most defensive tactical league in the world? Its not because they accentaute on the techniqual football and attractive football for sure Do you watch Serie A? For sure more then you. I wouldn't bet more than 5p on that. Do you even go to Serie A games at all? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Problem is Owen might be here, unlike many others I still have a lot of faith in Martins. The negative parts of his game are nowhere near what some people make out and he has had a good first season in the premiership. The lad is still young and has goals in him even in a team that is vastly underperforming like we have this season. Agree with you about Martins He is super talent and i hope that he'll remain with us next season. If not i hope we dont sell him for less then 15m because that would be a disgrace About people wanting Anelka as a replacement for Martins: Martins-43=17 goals Anelka-38=12 goals I would rather go for Darren Bent instead of Anelka Bent-34=15 goals The negative parts of Martins' game, i.e. his movement and touch, are pretty shocking imo. You can't tell that from stats though, you only appreciate that by watching the game. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest makemeacupoftea Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Problem is Owen might be here, unlike many others I still have a lot of faith in Martins. The negative parts of his game are nowhere near what some people make out and he has had a good first season in the premiership. The lad is still young and has goals in him even in a team that is vastly underperforming like we have this season. Agree with you about Martins He is super talent and i hope that he'll remain with us next season. If not i hope we dont sell him for less then 15m because that would be a disgrace About people wanting Anelka as a replacement for Martins: Martins-43=17 goals Anelka-38=12 goals I would rather go for Darren Bent instead of Anelka Bent-34=15 goals The negative parts of Martins' game, i.e. his movement and touch, are pretty shocking imo. You can't tell that from stats though, you only appreciate that by watching the game. Anelka's all round play is amazing though, i for sure would sell martins for 10 mill to bring in Anelka Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest alex Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Problem is Owen might be here, unlike many others I still have a lot of faith in Martins. The negative parts of his game are nowhere near what some people make out and he has had a good first season in the premiership. The lad is still young and has goals in him even in a team that is vastly underperforming like we have this season. Agree with you about Martins He is super talent and i hope that he'll remain with us next season. If not i hope we dont sell him for less then 15m because that would be a disgrace About people wanting Anelka as a replacement for Martins: Martins-43=17 goals Anelka-38=12 goals I would rather go for Darren Bent instead of Anelka Bent-34=15 goals The negative parts of Martins' game, i.e. his movement and touch, are pretty shocking imo. You can't tell that from stats though, you only appreciate that by watching the game. That's sort of the point though, isn't it? Especially regarding his movement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Problem is Owen might be here, unlike many others I still have a lot of faith in Martins. The negative parts of his game are nowhere near what some people make out and he has had a good first season in the premiership. The lad is still young and has goals in him even in a team that is vastly underperforming like we have this season. Agree with you about Martins He is super talent and i hope that he'll remain with us next season. If not i hope we dont sell him for less then 15m because that would be a disgrace About people wanting Anelka as a replacement for Martins: Martins-43=17 goals Anelka-38=12 goals I would rather go for Darren Bent instead of Anelka Bent-34=15 goals The negative parts of Martins' game, i.e. his movement and touch, are pretty shocking imo. You can't tell that from stats though, you only appreciate that by watching the game. That's sort of the point though, isn't it? Especially regarding his movement. Oh aye, just wanted to see it appear again for those of us who are mentally challenged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beezeri Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 In Italy the main thing they teach you is how to defend and defending tactics They teach strikers that? Wouldn't exactly hurt us if they teach some of our players how to do that as well... Name a top team which doesn't have a good defence at the moment! Everything starts from there and defenders should also be able to make some plays and not just to hoof the ball long a la Bramble style! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicago_shearer Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Anelka's all round play is amazing though, i for sure would sell martins for 10 mill to bring in Anelka Bringing in a player that scored 12 goals last season in a better team and will turn 29 next year when you could keep the 23 year old who scored 17 goals in a terrible team just doesn't make any sense. Didn't Shearer get criticized in his last two years for being picked in the side for his "all round play" despite not scoring enough goals? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 In Italy the main thing they teach you is how to defend and defending tactics They teach strikers that? Wouldn't exactly hurt us if they teach some of our players how to do that as well... Name a top team which doesn't have a good defence at the moment! Everything starts from there and defenders should also be able to make some plays and not just to hoof the ball long a la Bramble style! It's pretty much a team game, tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Anelka's all round play is amazing though, i for sure would sell martins for 10 mill to bring in Anelka Bringing in a player that scored 12 goals last season in a better team and will turn 29 next year when you could keep the 23 year old who scored 17 goals in a terrible team just doesn't make any sense. Didn't Shearer get criticized in his last two years for being picked in the side for his "all round play" despite not scoring enough goals? It's pretty much a team game, tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Its pretty much a team game tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shak Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 All depends on the Owen situation. One of them will go IMO. Possibly both, but I'd bet just the one of them. If owen is leaving, I'd like to keep Martins unless the offer is upwards of 12m. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Its pretty much a team game tbh. Agreed. Good post there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 This thread is off the scale. mackems.gif Have you heard of chickenegghatchio? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontownman Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 To be fair, I dont know what people want from Martins. Bar the last game of the season, which he has apologized for as a misunderstanding, he has never moaned, hasnt come out like Tevez, Anelka, Chimbonda etc and said he would love to play somewhere else or move to a bigger club sometime (infact he has said the opposite). He scored 17 times in his first season in a new league, style and surroundings. Is nigh on unstoppable when he wants to be, has played double the amount of first team games he has ever played. Yes he is still raw, he is 22 and its his first season, give him a break, he has the makings of being a better striker than we have possibly ever seen, he has it all he just need the right coaching and time, he can be anything we want him to be, he has everything. Half the board talks about us not being good enough to attract great players and managers, "Allardyce is a good as we can get at the moment", "we are in a transitional period". Yet magically we are happy to let a potential one go, because he isnt the finished article. He can go for the greater good. what greater good is that? We can spend the money on rebuilding the squad, taking a step back to go forwards, fair enough, except when things arent going pretty and we have a mediocre squad, will fans be calling for allardyces head again, what make people think the petulance and synacism of the past will be different this time? Im wondering where this consistent all round 20+ goals a season player is going to appear from, and why we think we will find one by selling the best ones we have. Then should we find one will we contain ourselves enough not to run him out of the club when he has a bad performance and scores only 19 in his first season? Is any player really good enough? Its clear to see which clubs either Martins and Owen will go from here and it wont be a step down. Whilst I can appreciate should Owens heart not be in it here, i have no problems with us selling him. But this has never been the case with Martins, who only a couple of weeks ago confirmed his happiness at staying here next season. Im sure in a couple of years when we end up with Kevin Davies and alike stuck in a goalscoring dry patch we will be quick to dismiss our ambition once again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparks Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Selling Martins would just send out all the wrong messages, and would just be an acceptance that this club is going nowhere. Martins is the sort of player this club needs if we ever want to become a major European club. Martins has shown about as much potential as Ronaldo did in his first season at Man Utd and look where he is now. With the right coaching Martins has enormous potential to fulfil, selling him to Juventus or another club for 15 million just says we are a selling club who can’t compete on the big stage. If Matins goes why would any young foreigner want to come to us, it would just be yet another failure. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 People need to remember Martins is still a young player and while his control and positioning (his movement is fine) is suspect, it isn't as if he can't improve in those areas, indeed we have already seen moments where he HAS controlled the ball well and got himself into good positions so there is something there to work with without a doubt. I think we need to stick with this player for a change and develop him ourselves, instead of getting shot because we don't like certain aspects of his game. Imagine if Man Utd had this policy over the years? Ronaldo wouldn't have made it past his first season where he would constantly lose cheap possession in his own half by doing tricks or over-running play by trying to take on one two many. He is a talent and at his age, worth sticking with as should he even improve slighly, he will still be more than capable of getting joy out of the vast majority of opponents he will face, as he has done already despite his flaws. If he can average 15 a season and set up another 5 for 5 more years that £10m price tag and those superficial flaws of his will be meaningless in the grande scheme of things. While many go OTT in praise of Martins, I also feel many are the same but in criticism (a trend associated with most of our players in fact - Taylor for example, who is either the next John Terry or another Bramble and not what he really is, a young talented player with flaws and strengths). Some people go on like Martins needs the brain of a Beardsley to play in the Premiership, the movement/positioning of an Owen or the control of a Zidane. He doesn't as his first very fruitful season at the club has shown. Oh and comparing him to Berbatov is pointless, he is 27 and is a very different type of player, furthermore he plays for a manager who has some kind of clue and in a team that plays very much to his strengths, everything Martins hasn't had here at Newcastle since joining from Inter. I don't want us to sell him, unless we get daft money like £15m plus or our money back and a good player in return. In truth it should be Owen we should be looking to sell first, irrespective of the so-called clause as I know which one represents the best value for money, who wants to be here and whose career is only going one way - upwards. That said if Big Sam wants to sell him I would back him 100%, despite any disappointment I'd feel over such a deal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUFC06 Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 toontownman,Sparks Some people on this board have the opinion that Martins's movement and touch are so shocking that he cant significantly improve this area of his game at the old age of 22. Thats why they will be happy to sell him for 12-13m. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulie Walnuts Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 To be fair, I dont know what people want from Martins. Bar the last game of the season, which he has apologized for as a misunderstanding, he has never moaned, hasnt come out like Tevez, Anelka, Chimbonda etc and said he would love to play somewhere else or move to a bigger club sometime (infact he has said the opposite). He scored 17 times in his first season in a new league, style and surroundings. Is nigh on unstoppable when he wants to be, has played double the amount of first team games he has ever played. Yes he is still raw, he is 22 and its his first season, give him a break, he has the makings of being a better striker than we have possibly ever seen, he has it all he just need the right coaching and time, he can be anything we want him to be, he has everything. Half the board talks about us not being good enough to attract great players and managers, "Allardyce is a good as we can get at the moment", "we are in a transitional period". Yet magically we are happy to let a potential one go, because he isnt the finished article. He can go for the greater good. what greater good is that? We can spend the money on rebuilding the squad, taking a step back to go forwards, fair enough, except when things arent going pretty and we have a mediocre squad, will fans be calling for allardyces head again, what make people think the petulance and synacism of the past will be different this time? Im wondering where this consistent all round 20+ goals a season player is going to appear from, and why we think we will find one by selling the best ones we have. Then should we find one will we contain ourselves enough not to run him out of the club when he has a bad performance and scores only 19 in his first season? Is any player really good enough? Its clear to see which clubs either Martins and Owen will go from here and it wont be a step down. Whilst I can appreciate should Owens heart not be in it here, i have no problems with us selling him. But this has never been the case with Martins, who only a couple of weeks ago confirmed his happiness at staying here next season. Im sure in a couple of years when we end up with Kevin Davies and alike stuck in a goalscoring dry patch we will be quick to dismiss our ambition once again. spot on mate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Toontownman makes a very valid point in his above post, for £10m you can't just buy that all-round 20 a season striker and no matter who comes in for such figures, whether foreign (Martins) or young and British (Bent), these type of players are always going to have quite a few flaws, otherwise they wouldn't be joining the likes of Newcastle United in the first place or in Martins' case leaving someone like Inter Milan for us. Say we do sell him, who could we get who is better and young like he is for the same price? I can't think of many myself and if Darren Bent is the only answer, what would be the point in swapping one player with flaws for another with flaws, i.e. basically going like for like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alan Shearer 9 Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 It's not that he needs to have the control of a Zidane or a Platini; he just needs control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Toontownman makes a very valid point in his above post, for £10m you can't just buy that all-round 20 a season striker and no matter who comes in for such figures, whether foreign (Martins) or young and British (Bent), these type of players are always going to have quite a few flaws, otherwise they wouldn't be joining the likes of Newcastle United in the first place or in Martins' case leaving someone like Inter Milan for us. Say we do sell him, who could we get who is better and young like he is for the same price? I can't think of many myself and if Darren Bent is the only answer, what would be the point in swapping one player with flaws for another with flaws, i.e. basically going like for like? Bent has less glaring flaws as Oba but seems fairly injury prone. I'd move Owen on and get Bent to play with Oba. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Alan Shearer 9 Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Oba just needs some coaching, the like of which Big Al got at Southampton to improve his touch. Whether he'll get that training or not remains to be seen, I for one doubt it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nufcjmc Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Oba just needs some coaching, the like of which Big Al got at Southampton to improve his touch. Whether he'll get that training or not remains to be seen, I for one doubt it. If SA does keep him I recon he will see where his game needs improvement and I hope his general game improves. If he goes I just hope we get someone as good in a similar age bracket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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