Wullie Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Henry was a top-class player before he signed for Arsenal though. He proved against us in 1997 he had the finishing skills, the pace, the power, great touch, etc. Why didn't he make it at Juventus then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Who turned Thierry Henry from a failing winger at Juventus into arguably the deadliest striker on the planet? Was it: a) Arsene Wenger - a failed defender, who made 13 appearances in his entire career b) Pat Rice - a good player throughout his career... at right back or c) Boro Primorac - an 18 times capped Yugoslav centre back Those are the three main coaches at Arsenal and have been throughout Henry's time there. Which one of those is it that's made him a footballing genius? The idea that "Martins was at Inter for 6 months while Crespo was there, plus they MUST have the best coaches and therefore he should be the finished article" is so ludicrous that it's not even worth a response. For what it's worth (nowt) Inter coaching staff is also made up of no-one of any note whatsoever as a striker other than Mancini whose goal record was pretty bloody average. Who said that, like? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Henry was a top-class player before he signed for Arsenal though. He proved against us in 1997 he had the finishing skills, the pace, the power, great touch, etc. He raped us down the left from what I remember. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Precisement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikon Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 He is a confidence player. When he has confidence he isn't that poor imo. When he's on fire he plays quite well and all those easy things in play go much better for him. And how can a player have alot of confidence playing in our shit team this season?? No quality partner to build a good understanding with, and most of all a organised team with strategy and every player knowing their roles. It doesn't matter at what level you play, in a good team you will always have more confidence and play better because of it. He may never have the touch and awareness and vision of a great player . But it can be better and i think it will be next season. He has great strengts as a player, lets just coach him in the right direction and take use of his abilities that he has and hopefully that will make him much more consistant and effective. We WONT find a player for £10m that has all that we ask for, young, 20 goals a season, super skillful and at the same time willing to come here. I say give it some time and the right coaching and im confident that we will not regret keeping him. With the right guidance he can become REALLY good i believe... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Henry was a top-class player before he signed for Arsenal though. He proved against us in 1997 he had the finishing skills, the pace, the power, great touch, etc. He raped us down the left from what I remember. And Emre and Martins tore a much better Arsenal side apart. One swallow does not make a Champions League tie... or something. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Henry was a top-class player before he signed for Arsenal though. He proved against us in 1997 he had the finishing skills, the pace, the power, great touch, etc. Why didn't he make it at Juventus then? Maybe he just wasn't suited to Italian football? Same with the likes of Souness, Francis & Rush. They were still fantastic players though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Henry was a top-class player before he signed for Arsenal though. He proved against us in 1997 he had the finishing skills, the pace, the power, great touch, etc. Why didn't he make it at Juventus then? Maybe he just wasn't suited to Italian football? Same with the likes of Souness, Francis & Rush. They were still fantastic players though. I think Thierry Henry would be suited to any football match in the world. He only made 16 appearances for Juventus, it's their loss, not Henry's. He didn't score for ten games after joining Arsenal. Some of the fuckwits on here (not you btw) would have had him flogged off long before then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nate Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Why is there a general feeling that older players can't improve? Yeah there won't be any MAJOR improvements to that specefic area but an improvement is still an improvement, no matter how slight. The trouble with Martins is, the major flaws in his game are things that usually come naturally to players and aren't coached or taught. Bullshit, they can be coached and learned. Unless all footballers are born that way I'm talking about something that comes naturally to players over their development from a young age. Martins doesn't have the same intelligence as the likes of Owen or Berbatov, and he never will. He could spend every day of the next 5 years working with the best coaches on the planet - he won't suddenly grow a good footballing brain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isegrim Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Henry was a top-class player before he signed for Arsenal though. He proved against us in 1997 he had the finishing skills, the pace, the power, great touch, etc. He raped us down the left from what I remember. And Emre and Martins tore a much better Arsenal side apart. One swallow does not make a Champions League tie... or something. But in total Henry was already a well established player before he moved to Arsenal (wasn't he France's best scorer at the WC in 1998?), he only had a couple of poor months at Juve but didn't need work at basic skills at Arsenal to make him a world star. Martins had several years of arguably good coaching at Inter and still has major flaws in his game. I am sceptical about him getting a moment of 'Heureka!' out of a sudden... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicago_shearer Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Think we paid too much for him to begin with and have seen nothing to make me change my mind. If we can turn a small profit on him then I'd snap their hands off. I know he's young and he may improve but I'd rather someone else took that chance on him tbh. I very much doubt that any team in the Premiership will sign a 17 goal a season striker this summer for less than 10 million (that isn't on a Bosman of course.) That is the going rate, and Oba has been good value for money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Why is there a general feeling that older players can't improve? Yeah there won't be any MAJOR improvements to that specefic area but an improvement is still an improvement, no matter how slight. The trouble with Martins is, the major flaws in his game are things that usually come naturally to players and aren't coached or taught. Bullshit, they can be coached and learned. Unless all footballers are born that way I'm talking about something that comes naturally to players over their development from a young age. Martins doesn't have the same intelligence as the likes of Owen or Berbatov, and he never will. He could spend every day of the next 5 years working with the best coaches on the planet - he won't suddenly grow a good footballing brain. True. And that's the problem and is why he reminds of Macdonald. He's a bit of a one man band and ultimately if he stays like that he won't be good enough for where we should be aiming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Think we paid too much for him to begin with and have seen nothing to make me change my mind. If we can turn a small profit on him then I'd snap their hands off. I know he's young and he may improve but I'd rather someone else took that chance on him tbh. I very much doubt that any team in the Premiership will sign a 17 goal a season striker this summer for less than 10 million (that isn't on a Bosman of course.) That is the going rate, and Oba has been good value for money. Why don't you stop looking at stats and counting goals, we all know he scored goals and we all know it's important. We're talking about his overall game and that's important as it impacts on the entire team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Think we paid too much for him to begin with and have seen nothing to make me change my mind. If we can turn a small profit on him then I'd snap their hands off. I know he's young and he may improve but I'd rather someone else took that chance on him tbh. I very much doubt that any team in the Premiership will sign a 17 goal a season striker this summer for less than 10 million (that isn't on a Bosman of course.) That is the going rate, and Oba has been good value for money. Don't agree mate. At times he's looked tremendous but by and large he's looked very average imo. I'm not saying he's a poor player and he won't improve - I'd just rather someone else took the chance on possibly improving him and gave us our money back for him. Don't care who buys him tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Henry was a top-class player before he signed for Arsenal though. He proved against us in 1997 he had the finishing skills, the pace, the power, great touch, etc. He raped us down the left from what I remember. And Emre and Martins tore a much better Arsenal side apart. One swallow does not make a Champions League tie... or something. But in total Henry was already a well established player before he moved to Arsenal (wasn't he France's best scorer at the WC in 1998?), he only had a couple of poor months at Juve but didn't need work at basic skills at Arsenal to make him a world star. Martins had several years of arguably good coaching at Inter and still has major flaws in his game. I am sceptical about him getting a moment of 'Heureka!' out of a sudden... Was Martins not a well established player? I'd heard of him a long time before we bought him, not bad for a 21 year old. Martins has 11 in 15 for Nigeria too, a pretty good record - an international goals record hardly tells you anything. Do you know who Henry's 3 goals in '98 were against? 1 vs South Africa, 2 vs Saudi Arabia. Don't think I'm trying to take anything away from Henry either - the man is brilliant beyond belief. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicago_shearer Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Sheffield United scored more at home than we did this season. I don't think this is a team that has the luxury of turning our nose up at a 17 goal a season striker. Especially when we finally have a manager who might be capable of fixing Martins flaws. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemmill Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Think we paid too much for him to begin with and have seen nothing to make me change my mind. If we can turn a small profit on him then I'd snap their hands off. I know he's young and he may improve but I'd rather someone else took that chance on him tbh. I very much doubt that any team in the Premiership will sign a 17 goal a season striker this summer for less than 10 million (that isn't on a Bosman of course.) That is the going rate, and Oba has been good value for money. Why don't you stop looking at stats and counting goals, we all know he scored goals and we all know it's important. We're talking about his overall game and that's important as it impacts on the entire team. Impossible to see from Chicago, I suspect, so banging on about goal stats is the best he can do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUFC06 Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Why is there a general feeling that older players can't improve? Yeah there won't be any MAJOR improvements to that specefic area but an improvement is still an improvement, no matter how slight. The trouble with Martins is, the major flaws in his game are things that usually come naturally to players and aren't coached or taught. Bullshit, they can be coached and learned. Unless all footballers are born that way I'm talking about something that comes naturally to players over their development from a young age. Martins doesn't have the same intelligence as the likes of Owen or Berbatov, and he never will. He could spend every day of the next 5 years working with the best coaches on the planet - he won't suddenly grow a good footballing brain. Are you saying Martins doesnt have enough football intelligence??? You can say that about Ameobi mate... But saying that about Martins... fucking wept Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howaythelads Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Why is there a general feeling that older players can't improve? Yeah there won't be any MAJOR improvements to that specefic area but an improvement is still an improvement, no matter how slight. The trouble with Martins is, the major flaws in his game are things that usually come naturally to players and aren't coached or taught. Bullshit, they can be coached and learned. Unless all footballers are born that way I'm talking about something that comes naturally to players over their development from a young age. Martins doesn't have the same intelligence as the likes of Owen or Berbatov, and he never will. He could spend every day of the next 5 years working with the best coaches on the planet - he won't suddenly grow a good footballing brain. Are you saying Martins doesnt have enough football intelligence??? You can say that about Ameobi mate... But saying that about Martins... fucking wept WUM, tbh. The flaws in Martin's game are obvious to see and a football brain that isn't among the best is definitely one of them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemmill Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Bulgaria is where I would sit if I wanted a good place from which to assess Martins' football intelligence. Specifically, Sofia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Knightrider Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Why is there a general feeling that older players can't improve? Yeah there won't be any MAJOR improvements to that specefic area but an improvement is still an improvement, no matter how slight. The trouble with Martins is, the major flaws in his game are things that usually come naturally to players and aren't coached or taught. Bullshit, they can be coached and learned. Unless all footballers are born that way I'm talking about something that comes naturally to players over their development from a young age. Martins doesn't have the same intelligence as the likes of Owen or Berbatov, and he never will. He could spend every day of the next 5 years working with the best coaches on the planet - he won't suddenly grow a good footballing brain. The Owens and Berbatovs are the exceptions to the rule and the vast majority of footballers will not develop a "good football brain" either. As for "comes naturally to players over their development from a young age", not many players develop that way naturally and I subscribe to the same views as Wenger and Fergie on this in that most players are made via practice makes perfect/product of their invironment with very few born natural footballers. Anyway, you try and by a naturally gifted football who is the finished article and is 22 for £10m... The fact of the matter is that Martins is a talented player with a lot to learn, if he works hard and has the hunger to learn and gets the required platform to showcase his talents under the guidance of people who know what they are doing (i.e. coaches and managers) he will improve, after all he's been improving with every year since he got into football. I see no reason why this can't happen and won't happen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isegrim Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Henry was a top-class player before he signed for Arsenal though. He proved against us in 1997 he had the finishing skills, the pace, the power, great touch, etc. He raped us down the left from what I remember. And Emre and Martins tore a much better Arsenal side apart. One swallow does not make a Champions League tie... or something. But in total Henry was already a well established player before he moved to Arsenal (wasn't he France's best scorer at the WC in 1998?), he only had a couple of poor months at Juve but didn't need work at basic skills at Arsenal to make him a world star. Martins had several years of arguably good coaching at Inter and still has major flaws in his game. I am sceptical about him getting a moment of 'Heureka!' out of a sudden... Was Martins not a well established player? I'd heard of him a long time before we bought him, not bad for a 21 year old. Martins has 11 in 15 for Nigeria too, a pretty good record - an international goals record hardly tells you anything. Do you know who Henry's 3 goals in '98 were against? 1 vs South Africa, 2 vs Saudi Arabia. Don't think I'm trying to take anything away from Henry either - the man is brilliant beyond belief. It isn't about against which teams Henry scored during the world cup, the point is rather that he was already a full member of the French squad at a World Cup at home, where he actually got games despite his young age. Of course Martins was sort of "established" at Inter. He was a fringe player who got occasional games in the late stages against tiring defences. That isn't bad for a 21-year old though, but it doesn't make him worth 10m quid or put him on par with someone like Henry at the same stage of his career. I just repeat I am very sceptical about him ever getting rid of the far too obvious flaws in his game and that's why I am not sure if he will ever develop in a top player. That's why I would have no problem in accepting the same amount of money we paid for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chicago_shearer Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Ok, so lets say we get rid of him and then Owen either leaves or shatters his knee, and then we spend a season with Viduka & Ameobi up front...passing the ball around well, marvelling at their first touch and improved positioning. But scoring fewer goals. Martins will improve from better coaching and when he has better service - not chasing long balls from our useless defenders. Goal scoring isn't some random irrelevant statistic...it's what strikers are supposed to do. Weren't you all the ones complaining when Shearer was in the team for his last season & a half doing everything but? Impossible to see from Chicago, I suspect, so banging on about goal stats is the best he can do. Well done, very clever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Martins did well in his first season given that he was playing in what was our worst team since promotion. In addition he is not a lone striker, a role he, in effect, mostly played. His season might be summed up by the penalty miss at Everton and the goal at Spurs. Next season no penalty misses just goals like the one at Spurs and Ill be happy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gemmill Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Ok, so lets say we get rid of him and then Owen either leaves or shatters his knee, and then we spend a season with Viduka & Ameobi up front...passing the ball around well, marvelling at their first touch and improved positioning. But scoring fewer goals. Martins will improve from better coaching and when he has better service - not chasing long balls from our useless defenders. Goal scoring isn't some random irrelevant statistic...it's what strikers are supposed to do. Weren't you all the ones complaining when Shearer was in the team for his last season & a half doing everything but? Impossible to see from Chicago, I suspect, so banging on about goal stats is the best he can do. Well done, very clever. Tell me I'm wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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