Jol on the brink? Breaking news:Ramos snubs huge Spurs offer.

[Parky]

Btw Parky, if the DOF is to blame for Spurs slump after 3 games this season and that all you need is a strong manager, who's to blame for Man Utd's slump?

 

I thought you might avoid this one, Parky.

 

 

The honest answer is I don't know.

 

Ronaldo has started badly and it will take time for Nani to settle. Rooney out. Giggs is past it and the keeper is dodgyish....Fuck knows how they won the league.

[gazza ladra]

I'm saying i'd never heard of him before he was signed up 2 years ago, surely thats not to hard for you to get your head around.

 

No, not at all.

 

But you do know that he (Alex) signed for Chelsea/PSV 3 years ago (2004) and Arnesen didn't move from Spurs to Chelsea until mid 2005. No?

 

The understanding is that Arnesen found Alex for a company owned by Abramovich who signed him up (same way Tevez is 'owned') and they loaned him to PSV because he didn't have a work permit, Chelsea had the option to buy him for £1.

 

I would have typed this earlier but I was posting off my phone and couldn't be arsed to go into it, so did you know of Alen before he went to PSV?

 

The first I saw of Alex was playing for Brazil I think-- may have been a friendly or an under-21 or something. But that may have been after his move to PSV. Certainly never saw him at a Brazilian club.

 

Arnesen was working for Abramovich and for Tottenham concurrently? I've never heard that. That would be a major scandal wouldn't it?

[Dave]

It was Yorkie with all the 'Roeder is staying, FACTOID' stuff btw.

[Parky]

It was Yorkie with all the 'Roeder is staying, FACTOID' stuff btw.

 

That's right and GJarn.

[Baggio]

I'm saying i'd never heard of him before he was signed up 2 years ago, surely thats not to hard for you to get your head around.

 

No, not at all.

 

But you do know that he (Alex) signed for Chelsea/PSV 3 years ago (2004) and Arnesen didn't move from Spurs to Chelsea until mid 2005. No?

 

The understanding is that Arnesen found Alex for a company owned by Abramovich who signed him up (same way Tevez is 'owned') and they loaned him to PSV because he didn't have a work permit, Chelsea had the option to buy him for £1.

 

I would have typed this earlier but I was posting off my phone and couldn't be arsed to go into it, so did you know of Alen before he went to PSV?

 

The first I saw of Alex was playing for Brazil I think-- may have been a friendly or an under-21 or something. But that may have been after his move to PSV. Certainly never saw him at a Brazilian club.

 

Arnesen was working for Abramovich and for Tottenham concurrently? I've never heard that. That would be a major scandal wouldn't it?

 

It was set up before Arnesen went to Spurs while he still worked with PSV, he helped set the deal up with another scout called Piet de Visser who was working for PSV at the time, Abramovich even paid some of Alex's wages while he was there.

 

EDIT - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20070311/ai_n18710517/pg_1

[Baggio]

Btw Parky, if the DOF is to blame for Spurs slump after 3 games this season and that all you need is a strong manager, who's to blame for Man Utd's slump?

 

I thought you might avoid this one, Parky.

 

 

The honest answer is I don't know.

 

Ronaldo has started badly and it will take time for Nani to settle. Rooney out. Giggs is past it and the keeper is dodgyish....Fuck knows how they won the league.

 

So how can you say Spurs poor start is down to the DOF while you admit you don't know why Man Utd's had a poor start? I seem to remember Spurs having a poor start last season too yet came 5th again.

 

I see your point about others signing players but that could happen at any club, Souness wanted Anelka and Boa Morte but Shepherd wouldn't pay what there clubs wanted, could it be that Shepherd preferred Owen and Luque so dragged his heels in the other deals? I think it's possible.

[NE5]

I chuckle even as I type out the thread title. The last couple of years on here there have been so many 'preachers' of the 'new way'. The continental system of DOF and manager. But what happens if the DOF isn't sanctioning or actioning the correct purchases? What happens if he starts to question the managers judgement and tactics?

 

If you like this season is as much about the traditional manager ie Big Sam as against the 'continental style' of Commoli and Martin the mong. 

 

Chaos they say has descending at WHL with clandestine meeting with candidates.

 

A good strong manager is all you need. Said it all along.  blueyes.gif

 

 

 

 

absolutely mate.

 

Do you want any more advice 

[Parky]

I chuckle even as I type out the thread title. The last couple of years on here there have been so many 'preachers' of the 'new way'. The continental system of DOF and manager. But what happens if the DOF isn't sanctioning or actioning the correct purchases? What happens if he starts to question the managers judgement and tactics?

 

If you like this season is as much about the traditional manager ie Big Sam as against the 'continental style' of Commoli and Martin the mong. 

 

Chaos they say has descending at WHL with clandestine meeting with candidates.

 

A good strong manager is all you need. Said it all along.  blueyes.gif

 

 

 

 

absolutely mate.

 

Do you want any more advice 

 

 

You took yer time.

[Baggio]

I chuckle even as I type out the thread title. The last couple of years on here there have been so many 'preachers' of the 'new way'. The continental system of DOF and manager. But what happens if the DOF isn't sanctioning or actioning the correct purchases? What happens if he starts to question the managers judgement and tactics?

 

If you like this season is as much about the traditional manager ie Big Sam as against the 'continental style' of Commoli and Martin the mong. 

 

Chaos they say has descending at WHL with clandestine meeting with candidates.

 

A good strong manager is all you need. Said it all along.  blueyes.gif

 

 

 

 

absolutely mate.

 

Do you want any more advice 

 

Why does Wenger want one then?

 

Don't you think he's the best manager out there?

[Cajun]

It was Yorkie with all the 'Roeder is staying, FACTOID' stuff btw.

 

That's right and GJarn.

 

Could you find that for me?

 

Also Parky YOU of all people really shouldn't play the "yeah but according to you" game

[Parky]

It was Yorkie with all the 'Roeder is staying, FACTOID' stuff btw.

 

That's right and GJarn.

 

Could you find that for me?

 

Also Parky YOU of all people really shouldn't play the "yeah but according to you" game

 

....and here he is...To plead his feisty case. 

[Cajun]

So you didn't find it then?

 

Just thought it was amusing that you were trying to pull out the "yeah but according to you" it would be like JJC saying someone was a bit weird or HTT moaning about someone making a long post

[Parky]

So you didn't find it then?

 

Just thought it was amusing that you were trying to pull out the "yeah but according to you" it would be like JJC saying someone was a bit weird or HTT moaning about someone making a long post

 

 

 

 

[Cajun]

:icon_flower:

[johnnypd]

all this planning lark, DoF and so on, hasn't done Sevilla too much harm in the past couple of years.

[Parky]

all this planning lark, DoF and so on, hasn't done Sevilla too much harm in the past couple of years.

 

Not against planning.

 

Just don't think the two tier sys is all it's cracked up to be.

 

Continentals love it cause no one in Euro likes to make a descision on his own. blueyes.gif

[Cajun]

Isn't the set up at Arsenal (well was) pretty much the same thing? I would suggest that has worked very well and to my knowledge Arsenal haven't spent vast amounts of money more than some others (like us) but still managed to perform consistantly well over a number of years.

[Baggio]

Isn't the set up at Arsenal (well was) pretty much the same thing? I would suggest that has worked very well and to my knowledge Arsenal haven't spent vast amounts of money more than some others (like us) but still managed to perform consistantly well over a number of years.

 

Pretty much, David Dein acted as a DOF to Wenger which is why he's on the look out for a replacement.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/a/arsenal/6581073.stm

 

 

[Parky]

Isn't the set up at Arsenal (well was) pretty much the same thing? I would suggest that has worked very well and to my knowledge Arsenal haven't spent vast amounts of money more than some others (like us) but still managed to perform consistantly well over a number of years.

 

Pretty much, David Dein acted as a DOF to Wenger which is why he's on the look out for a replacement.

 

 

 

Dein was excellent in the role actually. But the Arsenal scouting set up in general and Arsene's contacts in Euro also played a big part. Dein wasn't a real specialist mind he was just one from the 'old board' who shared Wenger's vision and understood his needs. Wenger was still Optimus Prime. Where it has gone wrong at Spurs is that Comolli almost seems after Jol's job.  Not quite as bad at Chelsea but there has also been a lot of fiction there.

 

People also have to remember that Kenyon head hunted Mourinho and that brings with it certain ties.

 

[Baggio]

Isn't the set up at Arsenal (well was) pretty much the same thing? I would suggest that has worked very well and to my knowledge Arsenal haven't spent vast amounts of money more than some others (like us) but still managed to perform consistantly well over a number of years.

 

Pretty much, David Dein acted as a DOF to Wenger which is why he's on the look out for a replacement.

 

 

 

Dein was excellent in the role actually. But the Arsenal scouting set up in general and Arsene's contacts in Euro also played a big part. Dein wasn't a real specialist mind he was just one from the 'old board' who shared Wenger's vision and understood his needs. Wenger was still Optimus Prime. Where it has gone wrong at Spurs is that Comolli almost seems after Jol's job.  Not quite as bad at Chelsea but there has also been a lot of fiction there.

 

People also have to remember that Kenyon head hunted Mourinho and that brings with it certain ties.

 

 

I think it's about adapting it to suit each different club, the Spurs board clearly have more faith in Comolli than they do in Jol which is why he holds so much power within the club, Chelsea are slightly different again in that their backroom team is massive, Mourinho does have the final say though except it seems for the deal for Schevchenko which I don't think has anything to do with the DOF set up, it's actually similar to Ashley buying a superstar that was talked about a few months ago.

 

Arsenal's scouting set up is great but most of that was set up by Comolli funnily enough.

[Martin Lol]

Isn't the set up at Arsenal (well was) pretty much the same thing? I would suggest that has worked very well and to my knowledge Arsenal haven't spent vast amounts of money more than some others (like us) but still managed to perform consistantly well over a number of years.

 

Pretty much, David Dein acted as a DOF to Wenger which is why he's on the look out for a replacement.

 

 

 

Dein was excellent in the role actually. But the Arsenal scouting set up in general and Arsene's contacts in Euro also played a big part. Dein wasn't a real specialist mind he was just one from the 'old board' who shared Wenger's vision and understood his needs. Wenger was still Optimus Prime. Where it has gone wrong at Spurs is that Comolli almost seems after Jol's job.   Not quite as bad at Chelsea but there has also been a lot of fiction there.

 

People also have to remember that Kenyon head hunted Mourinho and that brings with it certain ties.

 

 

Comolli is Jol's immediate superior in the hierachy, he recommends people for the underling's job, not tries to take them for himself!

 

The Spurs board will back the DoF ahead of the Head Coach every time.  The coach may be sacked but with the strategy being dictated by the DoF, the continuity will remain.  It should also be remembered that Spurs' 2 5th place finishes have been with Comolli as the DoF, Arnesen never achieved that in his time at Spurs.  Comolli also turned down Wenger when he was tapped up to be Dein's replacement so I don't see the system being the problem as much as the Head Coach (appointed by Arnesen) not being in sync with Comolli's strategy.  Even if a deal with Ramos cannot be finalised, I don't see Jol staying very long and his departure wouldn't have anything to do with the results of the first 2 matches of the season either.

[ChezGiven]

One of the quotes i read from Jol today was intriguing. He apparently told his players "you dont play for me, you play for the supporters".

 

The intrigue was twofold. Firstly, that it adds weight to him not being the big strong manager type clearly required in a political minefield like Spurs and secondly that maybe the suprs players think their fans are tossers too. 

[Dave]

One of the quotes i read from Jol today was intriguing. He apparently told his players "you dont play for me, you play for the supporters".

 

The intrigue was twofold. Firstly, that it adds weight to him not being the big strong manager type clearly required in a political minefield like Spurs and secondly that maybe the suprs players think their fans are tossers too. 

 

Last thing he needs.

 

I for one will enjoy the Spurs collapse should it happen.

[Parky]

Isn't the set up at Arsenal (well was) pretty much the same thing? I would suggest that has worked very well and to my knowledge Arsenal haven't spent vast amounts of money more than some others (like us) but still managed to perform consistantly well over a number of years.

 

Pretty much, David Dein acted as a DOF to Wenger which is why he's on the look out for a replacement.

 

 

 

Dein was excellent in the role actually. But the Arsenal scouting set up in general and Arsene's contacts in Euro also played a big part. Dein wasn't a real specialist mind he was just one from the 'old board' who shared Wenger's vision and understood his needs. Wenger was still Optimus Prime. Where it has gone wrong at Spurs is that Comolli almost seems after Jol's job.   Not quite as bad at Chelsea but there has also been a lot of fiction there.

 

People also have to remember that Kenyon head hunted Mourinho and that brings with it certain ties.

 

 

Comolli is Jol's immediate superior in the hierachy, he recommends people for the underling's job, not tries to take them for himself!

 

The Spurs board will back the DoF ahead of the Head Coach every time.  The coach may be sacked but with the strategy being dictated by the DoF, the continuity will remain.  It should also be remembered that Spurs' 2 5th place finishes have been with Comolli as the DoF, Arnesen never achieved that in his time at Spurs.  Comolli also turned down Wenger when he was tapped up to be Dein's replacement so I don't see the system being the problem as much as the Head Coach (appointed by Arnesen) not being in sync with Comolli's strategy.  Even if a deal with Ramos cannot be finalised, I don't see Jol staying very long and his departure wouldn't have anything to do with the results of the first 2 matches of the season either.

 

Can't be much of a system if two grown men can't communicate within it and sort out the football side of things. MJ  clarify for us how you give so much credit for the two 5th places to Comolli and not Jol. And who is at fault for the Spurs left side?

 

 

 

 

http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,2152361,00.html

 

 

 

Jol hears 'whispers' that his sacking is close as Spurs court Sevilla's Ramos

 

 

David Hytner

Monday August 20, 2007

The Guardian

 

Martin Jol fears Tottenham are about to sack him and wants clarity from Daniel Levy, the chairman, about his future. The manager watched his team beat Derby County 4-0 at White Hart Lane on Saturday to win their first points of the season but has been alarmed to hear "whispers" that his days are numbered.

Jol was also distressed to learn that Tottenham directors had met Juande Ramos, the Sevilla manager, in Spain on Friday. John Alexander, the club secretary, was pictured with Ramos, and Paul Kemsley, the vice-chairman, was also present.

 

[Guest alex]

That said, Chelsea have done ok over the last 3 seasons Parky.

 

They haven't spent a penny have they?

 

 

They've spent money and had the most successful 3 years in their history. Your point being?

 

 

It's Kenyon's point that matters.

Yeah, but what was your point? Or did you not have one?

 

 

Kenyon's thinly veiled critique of Mourinho.

I was suggesting Chelsea wasn't a very good example to bring up of a club having a DoF and it not working in the Premier League though. They aren't and neither are Spurs. Going purely off the relative recent records of the clubs. Which is all that really matters. The rest is largely conjecture about wranglings behind the scenes.

 

 

So who are we blaming for the Spurs left side?

So, that was the point you were making when you brought up Kenyon? Spurs' left side. Not even worth replying to that one Parky. Nice try, see if you can hook someone else.

 

 

I though YOU were talking about Spurs AND Chelsea?

 

 

Let's put it another way ManU might have won the league last year cause Mourinho didn't get the players HE wanted.

I was talking about Chelsea and (to a lesser extent) Spurs. Fairly obvious (I'd have thought) I was making a general point about the relative recent success of those two teams and how that would tend to suggest a DoF can work. Dein at Arsenal has also been mentioned and is a case in point due to the role he had.

Btw, I think Man Utd. won the league by playing stunning football last season. As to why Chelsea didn't, it's a lot of ifs and buts, as with everything in football. They're still probably in the middle of their most successful spell ever though.