NJS

So we needed 7 or 8 new players, in January, ready to go into the first team? Desirable, but not possible. We needed 2 or 3 before the injuries/departures - the net result of the sale and injuries is a weaker squad than January 1st .

If Owen, Barton, Beye and Guthrie had been sold, which their injuries have effectively equated to, how the hell has signing 3 squad players improved us with another outfield player gone? The 3 would have been decent IF none of those key players hadn't been fucked - exactly the type of players we should have brought in in the summer. To bring them in now as "replacements" for players as crucial as at least 3 of those 4 is the ultimate in pissing in a hurricane.

Theres also the point that I don't feel "smug" that he has done exactly what I thought he would - if he had actually spent a nett amount of money I wouldn't exactly have been pissed off - the squad would (probably) have been been better - winners all round.

Is the squad, allowing for Barton and Owen's injuries, better than it was on January 1st?

He never stood a chance, the volume and signings that would have made people praise him was impossible. (Sorry, but it's could have.) Utter bollocks. In what way? I know you're an intelligent poster, so what would have been 'good enough'? And also, how would that compare to what a premiership club has ever done in a January window? Premiership survival would have suited me. I realise that was a bit much to ask for. Are we relegated then? Shit, I take it all back. Name 6 games we have the slightest chance of winning on current form.

I phoned them on Friday to cancel and was told to write by the tenth.

And seen two crucial players injured during the window.

8 out of 113 realists.

Saved him from having to force someone out for his silver.

Ginola took the huff long before Dalglish arrived - Keegan never forgave him for trying to engineer a move to Barcelona in the summer of 96.

I agree that 95/96 and the Chelsea semi were the closer but I think people forget 96/97 too easily - we came pretty close to beating West ham which would have meant going to Old Trafford with a victory taking us top before the last game. Obviously not a certainty but funnily enough I'd have trusted Dalglish to maybe pull it off.

You're right - relegation a year earlier wouldn't have made much difference overall. Even if someone else had kept us up do you honestly think as many STs/3 year deals would have been sold? The latter is probably moot given the number of renewals that won't be happening this summer. How many has been sold? I don't know the absolute figures but I think there would have been less without the Keegan factor. I think the 3 year deal would have been taken up by people wanting to save money and those experiencing that factor or a mixture of the two. As I said I think this summer will show the real level of confidence in the club.

Not paying what debt? I'm comfortable not giving Mike Ashley his money back yet, yes. I don't expect his meagre £600m has him buying the Asda SmartPrice stuff just yet. We won't agree because we have differing views of the squad. You think Ashley is going to get his chequebook out and that we'll stay up, I think he won't and we'll go down. We'll see in May - I simply can't get my head round the amount of people with their heads in the sand. One look at the form guide and the fixture list (available at all good paying fanzine websites) should show you that relegation is more likely than not at this moment in time. From that point of view, unless he can find a top class manager happy to be let around by the hand by Dennis Wise (and a witch doctor who can fix up Oba and Beye right this second), yes, I'd rather take the risk of strengthening and I don't give two f***s if Ashley has to foot the bill because as owner, it'll be his fault and his responsibility. Fair enough. Although if we sign a couple of decent players this window (as has been hinted) will it chage your view at all? Not really. It's January 25th, signings are not looking likely and we're 2 points off 20th with a very difficult run-in. If we stay up I'm not going to praise him for saving us when he's the one who got us into this bother in the first place. If he pushes on in the summer with a real manager and funds, I might think about putting up with him even if I don't trust him as far as I could throw him. Sorry Wullie, but that's one of the most short sighted, narrow minded things I've ever read on here. He is, man. Not the only one but most certainly the main culprit - like Shepherd, the man pulling the strings has to take the blame. I know you like to defend him but when will you give up absolving him of blame? When we're lining up at Blackpool next season? I've never absolved him of blame, he's made some monumental f*** ups. Well then we agree. His monumental f*** ups have led us to where to we are now. If you think he has led us there you're being incredibly naive. We were well on the way before he even got involved. That's like blaming Ken Bates for Leeds being in League 1. I don't agree, I think he's done the majority of the damage and accelerated the slide (and it was already a slide, although we had finished 7th a year earlier, so by no means an unstoppable one). He's been here the same time as Lerner has at Villa and they were in a very similar state. We were in a horrendous state financially but he paid most of that off as soon as he got here so what else is there to look at in terms of what has done the damage? Aye he's paid it off which is something Lerner didn't have to do at Villa, amazing you can't see the difference between the state of the two clubs. All due to a few years of horrendus financial mismanagement. The fact is the rot set in long before Ashley arrived. Since Ashley came in we've also had Mort, Keegan & Llambias doing the day to day running of the club and until we know the full facts the three of them are potentially just as culpable as he is. Was having to pay the debts off due to financial mismanagement or due to Ashley not doing his homework? I accept that a certain amount of the debts had to be paid with his own money because we were operating at a loss but: a) the majority seems to have been the stadium loan, which is pure and simply Ashley not doing due diligence. That's his fault. and b) did he have to pay all the debts off in one whack? Couldn't he have just paid the agreed repayments rather than paying them all off, which is what Lerner started doing despite their very similar debts? I don't know the answer to that, you should know better than me. Re: the people at the top, Ashley hired them, so he has to carry the can. The bit in bold is over-exaggerated a lot more than it should be tbh, people go on as if he didn't even get a copy of the accounts before making the decision to purchase. The question that people neglect to ask is who tied the club into that change of ownership clause & why? The answer being to protect their investment despite the fact that it was going to potentially f*** any new investor over, regardless of whether they knew about it or not. The level of the debt & the structure of it is down to financial mismanagement without a doubt. So how did he miss the £70m debt? He didn't. So why is there no money to spend on avoiding relegation? Because the club is a loss making operation. so what? and thereby endeth the thread. His point is that other clubs are making losses as well and are still spending to ensure safety/push on for Europe as most reacently illustrated by Villa - why is that so stupid a point?

That's what I suggested somewhere earlier in the thread - if he did come in with the intention of spending a bit on transfers then he should have stuck to that plan while the non-compulsory debt was serviceable at a reduced amount. As others have suggested his failure to realise how important the first team is seems to be his blind spot.

You're right - relegation a year earlier wouldn't have made much difference overall. Even if someone else had kept us up do you honestly think as many STs/3 year deals would have been sold? The latter is probably moot given the number of renewals that won't be happening this summer.

You're right - relegation a year earlier wouldn't have made much difference overall. Even if someone else had kept us up do you honestly think as many STs/3 year deals would have been sold? The latter is probably moot given the number of renewals that won't be happening this summer.

I meant in terms of one person's personal wealth - how would you go about spending the extra £1.1bn?

I meant "stupid" spending really - I don't honestly know how the what I think of as over moderate spending last summer or the reluctance now fits in with those bids you mention which showed exactly what I wanted - reasonable but neither excessive or inadequate.

I think its only relevant in that if Keegan had walked in May and he'd decided to sell then, he would probably have found a buyer. I'd also say as a continuation of my post above that I don't see much material difference between being worth £800m and £1.9bn - its still "pointless" excess in my view and in any case I think he'd already shown he wasn't going to spend a great deal of money even if for some reason his wealth had rocketed.

I agree. I'd also point out for those taking the piss about his losses being a shock that his huge loss in HBOS shares was completely predictable. Not if you didnt see the global recession coming. His loss on HBOS was March 2008 - 4 months before that the bank I work for had already made the decision to set aside all profit for 2007 for the shit that was to follow. anybody who didn't realise that banks were in serious trouble by March is quite frankly an idiot.

I agree. I'd also point out for those taking the piss about his losses being a shock that his huge loss in HBOS shares was completely predictable.

I was going to pick up on this earlier when someone was asking how much Ashley should spend which I guess is what you're getting at. There were certainly times a few years ago when I spent almost every spare penny I had following the team - with very little regret. I wouldn't do that now as other responsibilities and apathy have taken root over time but I can relate to the notion of making the club the most important thing in your life. In a way what FS is saying is that for us as fans we think that an owner should be into the club mind, body and soul as that's what we'd like to think we'd do if it was us. I know Ashley doesn't have £600m in the bank as people have taken the piss out of the lad in this thread for saying but I think there are a lot of us who if were "given" Ashley's wealth would see an almost total commitment to the club as a possibility. I know when I've daydreamed about winning the lottery I've never thought beyond £20m being needed to do all of the "mundane" stuff I want with a lot to spare so the notion of having hundreds of millions on paper seems pointless to me and I think I would consider it quite seriously. Of course you could argue that possibly only Jack Walker has ever done this "full on" though there may be some lower/non-league people who've done it to a lesser degree. I think one of the more instinctive things people have against Ashley (which I admit to) is the lack of connection with the club which makes talk of an emotional investment less likely. Of course you could argue that that's a good thing as an undeniable Newcastle fan has got us into this financial shit in the first place but I'd still be a lot happier with things if there was at least some kind of connection - I think that was why Ashley with Keegan in place seemed so appealing.

FWIW I think that will be too late.

That's twice I've seen you quote 4 years - just to be pedantic 3 years ago we finished 7th (not that I backed Roeder's permanent appointment) - that season showed that a half decent manager can make things work which you suggested when we discussed this this afternoon. Having said that minimal "investment" over the next 2 or 3 years will be fatal no matter where we finish this season.

That is just as valid a comment for those who thinks he's got plenty to spend. I think having a debate about a strategy over 4 or 5 years if he is committed to staying is one thing. What worries people like me, FS and a couple of others is that there seems an unwillingness from his pov to address this window/season and for those who seem to defend him in this thread to think about the here and now. How much he was willing to spend last summer or next summer are worthwhile topics imo - I think asking for funds for emergency plumbing for a fuck off hole in the living room ceiling shouldn't attract too much criticism.