ohmelads

Watch Chelsea and Terry is doing all the organising, not Cech. Carragher organises Liverpool's defence, not Reina. That's what we need.

Nobody has suggested a fully fit Michael Owen should turn down the chance to play for England, therefore Martin Samuel's entire point is moot. His bias is pretty clear, he begins his article with petty sarcasm and ends with a cheap dig. "And it is not for Newcastle, or anybody, to deny him the right to be the player of his dreams." Apparently that is what we are trying to do He talks about Owen playing in mundane Newcastle games. Perhaps he should watch Owen's goal celebration against Russia to see if this was the type of game he dreamt of playing in. World Cup qualifiers, however important, are pretty mundane if you ask me and as much as Newcastle might not have beaten City without Owen, I think he ignores the fact that England might have won both games without Owen anyway. Making such a fair comparison wouldn't suit his agenda though, so he left it out.

That crossed my mind as well. Smith's signing made little sense in terms of squad building or indeed the first team. The fact we're putting him on the right wing is testament to that. But seeing Ashley turning up to games with Smith on his back does make you wonder, he seems undroppable at the moment yet he's offering the team nothing.

I agree about his weaknesses in general but yesterday our problems were 40 yards further up the pitch, where we constantly held a high defensive line (even when 1-0 in front) against players with guile and pace and got punished for it. Shay can't be blamed if his defence wanders up to the halfway line and gets punished by a ball over the top or a through ball. I don't know if we were trying to play the offside trap or what but whatever it was, it didn't work at all.

Aye but we've got to show some faith in our left back, we paid £6m for him so we obviously rate him very highly.

Results have always been most important, a poor display only matters in defeat. It's the same with draws, people are pissed off when you drop points after leading but are happy when you come back from behind. People talk about successful teams playing poorly and winning but playing poorly is not something they make a habit of. As the opposition becomes tougher, I think it will force people to be harsher critics of our start to the season whereas previously they were far too generous. It was as easy a start to the season as we could have asked for on paper and these games were always going to provide a tougher test. We still have to play Everton, Spurs and the top 4 and I fear that we'll be looking back at our season's start as a missed opportunity to get serious points on the board. There's been a lot of this "shut up man, we're fifth" going on, I fear a harsh reality check is around the corner.

That post sums up my feelings about things at the moment.

Wasn't Evra signed in the January window? Therefore he didn't have a pre-season with his team-mates etc. If Enrique doesn't start soon, more and more fans will be asking questions and the pressure on his shoulders will be even greater. Bear in mind we don't have Heinze or Silvestre to throw in while he acclimatises, the team needs him and the fans know that. A couple of months down the line it's not like the sun will be shining and he'll be speaking fluent English either. He'll have teething problems, most foreign players do, but they overcome that by playing games which I dare say helped Evra. I hope he'll start against Everton, but I thought he'd start yesterday.

He was our best player yesterday. Frustrating at times but it was a superb goal out of nothing and he did a lot of pressing for the team, hurrying defenders into playing the ball early. If a few more had shown his desire and belief, we might have seen a different game. He wasn't great but he was the best of a poor bunch.

Is this the same Beye who was thrown straight into the squad for Derby and has started every game since? He's our only right-back and a Champions League class player. Enough said. Hence he wasn't introduced in stages, as was originally made out. Don't mean to be pedantic but I found it a strange comparison. I understand the need to ease Enrique in, but if he's not ready now then when will he be ready to start a Premiership match? It's not as if he's 17 or 18, he's 21 and has plenty of experience in La Liga under his belt playing for several clubs. He'll only get Premiership experience by playing Premiership games and as has been pointed out, his absence causes problems in two positions. We need him in the team and he needs the games.

I agree. However, it seems a bit inconsistent of the manager to say that form players pick themselves and then drop the form player. Wouldn't you agree that if you go down that route you should stick with it, rather than drop an in-form player? I would...but the only reason Harper got his game was down to Given picking up an injury. It wasn't lack of form. He's now fit so he should come straight back and start every game until he loses his place for playing poorly. In my opinion obviously. That's fair enough. I can live with the decision as I think Given is the better keeper and I get the feeling it's only a matter of time before Harper's form runs out and he shows the kind of mistakes he did last season. I think Given should have been restored when he returned from fitness, but when Sam decided Harper shouldn't be dropped I thought he would stick with that. Harper has been very good so far in fairness to him, he had been justifying Sam's faith in him. If keeping an in-form Harper in the team sends out the right message, what message does dropping an in-form Harper send out?

I agree. However, it seems a bit inconsistent of the manager to say that form players pick themselves and then drop the form player. Wouldn't you agree that if you go down that route you should stick with it, rather than drop an in-form player? I feel safer with Given between the sticks, but Sam's gone down this route and after a few games in which Harper has hardly put a foot wrong, he's gone back on his word and put Given back in.

Made a world class save and I don't know what he could have down about the goals. Well, he could have saved them. To be fair to Given, he made himself big to stop Elano when through on goal, when most people would have expected a goal. He also made a good save to stop Elano's volley earlier in the game. He didn't have a bad game, but I don't think either of their first two goals were unstoppable with quicker feet and better positioning. I wouldn't single him out for criticism either though, because these things happen. His confidence (which is massive for goalkeepers, just look at Robinson) looks a bit low, not surprising given he's been out the side when fit for the first time. I wasn't sure what to make of playing Harper, he dropped quite a lot of clangers last season and there's no doubt in my mind that Shay is a better 'keeper. But if you're going to go down the "players pick themselves" route then you have to stick with it, and Harper has done nothing to be dropped. There doesn't seem any consistency in the decision to restore Given.

Is this the same Beye who was thrown straight into the squad for Derby and has started every game since? I agree with jimmymag, some time to settle in is normal, even a bit longer if you're overprotective, but Enrique has been training with us for a long time now and he needs the games. Our easier games have come and gone, now we have Everton, Tottenham and the 'big four' still to come and he still hasn't started a Premiership game. Perhaps he's been injured for longer than they were letting on, who knows.

The shoes off thing is just a bit of craic. If you have an issue with stuff like that then maybe going to football games isn't your thing. As for City fans, when was the last time anyone cared what they think?

He's got to be ready by now, surely? He did look rapid when he burst down the flank near the end, like.

Spot on, as usual. I dont think we were awful, think thats maybe a bit harsh. We were second best on the day, that doesnt make us awful. Some of Man city's football was superb, not 'just good'. It was excellent football played by some excellent players. We had our moments in that game and i agree with the general sentiment that getting the ball on the deck and passing it about would be preferable. Its diappointing that we couldnt apply more pressure or convert the chances we had in the second half. Could have easily been 2-2 but then again, that may have just meant more papering over the cracks. One other thing about Sven, he didnt accept the Man city job and then think about which players he wanted. He has had all the players he signed on his radar for months beforehand. Man City deserve some credit for playing good football but once again I think we made the opposition look better than they were. Our defence held a very high line even when we were winning, and with the pace of Petrov and nobody picking up Elano, it was a simple case of trying to beat the offside trap with a through ball or one over the top, and they did it time and time again. We could do nothing about the free kick, but the first two goals were our own fault. We held a ridiculously high line for both and lost out in a straight sprint. In both cases our defenders were barely in our own half when City started the move. The space behind our defence was massive all game and Man City used that to their full advantage. We only have ourselves to blame. Saying City were excellent is a poor excuse IMO, if you give any half-decent side that kind of space they will create chances, we saw the same thing at Derby.

There will always be those who accuse others of knee-jerk reactions to comfort themselves. Often they'll talk about how bad things used to be, or you get those who try to blame a shoddy team performance on certain individuals. We were awful today and we're losing games because we're not playing very good football and teams who do that get found out sooner or later. Call this reaction whatever you want, we were taken apart today by a team more focused on getting the ball on the deck and playing football.

I made the point a day or two ago about people saying a draw would be a good result because I didn't feel it was the right attitude to be taking into a game against Manchester City. If we're going to judge ourselves by past inferiority then we'll get what we deserve, which is nothing. We looked like we would be happy with a draw today and we got what we deserved, nothing. The team lineup was uninspiring and the body language of our players was pretty poor, and that's without even talking about the actual football. We didn't look like we believed in ourselves at all. Man City are nothing but a decent side with a few good players, they play to their strengths. They'll have a decent season, but I think they'll be a bit surprised at how easy it all was today. They were enjoying it. Some will take issue with this statement, perhaps because they don't want to admit what it says about this Newcastle team. Allardyce believes in his style of football, he tries to turn players into machines, playing balls into zones, fighting for second balls, never letting the ball bounce in our own half and all the rest of it. I saw three Newcastle players crash into each other today challenging for the same ball. At the end of the day, we were beaten by a team who just wanted to get the ball on the floor and play football, a team who worked the ball to their better players in space and worked from there. I think there a lot of Newcastle fans who aren't prepared to accept what they see or to call a spade a spade, because the truth on this occasion does hurt. The brutal truth is that we're not playing very good football and teams who do that get found out sooner or later. We've had an easy start to the season and at the first sign of decent opposition, we're found out. Next up is Everton and then Tottenham. It isn't a doomsday scenario, but Allardyce has to make some changes, I think we can all agree on that. Waving the white flag with two defensive midfielders doesn't help, Emre and Barton coming into the fold will hopefully change that. I don't know why Enrique didn't start today, but starting him and moving Zog further forward will give us more pace and width in attack, with Milner replacing Smith on the other flank. Allardyce really needs to decide whether we keep going down this long ball route or whether we play a more open game. My main concern with the transfer window is that we didn't really equip ourselves with the players to change it around and we're lacking flair and pace to play 4-4-2.

Aye we're two unpredictable sides at the best of times, but with two new owners, managers and teams in place, anything could happen tomorrow. I don't think City are all that personally, thing is we don't really know how good we are ourselves yet. Arsenal and Villa are the only decent sides we've played, possibly West Ham too. Two of those sides have found us out but we looked decent at times against West Ham. I think these next three games (Man City, Everton & Tottenham) will give us a good examination. It's a bit concerning that after those three we still haven't played any of the top four, it adds a lot of weight to those games IMO. This is why I feel a lot of fans don't appreciate the easy start we've had.

It hasn't had any effect so far. It either needs serious work or needs to be ditched. I think more often than not we're giving away possession and spoiling a good attacking opportunity with the long throw. It's a very difficult ball to attack because it floats slowly into the box, and far more teams seem to be drilled in waiting for the second ball these days as they're wise to it.

Sorry but we play nothing like how Bolton did under Big Sam, sadly. Had we, we'd probably be unbeaten and even higher up in the league than we are at the moment. At their best Bolton were a formidable opponent, physically, mentally, tactically, adaptability and even skilfully, especially after Anelka joined them. I watched them tear Arsenal apart last season playing some wonderful quick football on the deck and they often battered sides in the final 3rd, something we haven't done yet, not even against Wigan. We have been and are nothing like Bolton and it's just plain laziness to even compare the two at the moment just because we have their former manager. I'd be delighted if we played like Bolton, delighted. But we don't. There may be signs there that we are trying to be more like they were under Sam, but we're not there by any stretch of the imagination really, more is the pity. I don't get some of the snobbish reaction to Bolton's style under Sam or some of the remarks. Technical footballers? Diouf and Anelka would walk into and transform our side, even Speed, Nolan and Campo in midfield would give us better balance while Davies' mobility and aerial strength would make that ball stick for certain. Bolton mk2? I wish. We'd never have lost to Derby and would probably still be in the League Cup or wouldn't have rolled over liked we did. We don't lack technical players either, we simply lack a greater understanding, which is pretty obvious and to be expected. Not many new sides can simply start playing football from the off. Ball retention and technical football can only come from a comfortable level of understanding and communication. Takes a lot longer than 6 or 7 games for that to happen though. Btw Arsenal's kids have played more games together than our lads have... Allardyce is building his team the way he wants it and when I look at his signings, they all have similar attributes. He targetted Beye at Bolton, he wanted Ben Haim and has brought Faye from his former club. Smith, Geremi, Barton, Viduka, Cacapa and Enrique made up the rest. It is clear that his priorities were to bring in taller, stronger players with a greater workrate and lots of experience. None of these are bad attributes, they give a clue as to the way we will be set up and the type of football we will be playing. And we've seen a glimpse of it so far. You will probably take this as a criticism of Allardyce, but it is what it is. I think most of us knew what we'd be getting when we signed Allardyce so we can't pretend to be surprised. I don't agree with you're analysis of his Bolton side. Nearly all Premiership sides have periods of good football, there's really no need to highlight the games last season where they played a bit. I don't mind Allardyce whereas I never used to like him. That's the way football is, he's a Newcastle manager now and gets my support. But I won't kid myself that his football at Bolton was anything other than boring, because I used to complain about them at the time. I do find the signings of Diouf and Anelka as a cause for optimism, he's not stupid and knows that you need that bit of quality to tip the balance in tight games. I think Allardyce will do a good job and will build us up in a similar way to how he built Bolton, but hopefully with a higher calibre of players. However, I'm under no illusions that we will suddenly start playing slick football. Does it matter? To me, not really. As I said in the other thread I think we're in a beggars can't be choosers position and winning ugly is still winning.

I think some on here overrate him a bit, he's not that good. He will give the team some drive though, he's someone who always looks for the ball and someone who isn't afraid to lose it trying to make things happen. We've definitely been lacking that type of presence in the middle of the park so his return is definitely good news. I just hope people don't expect him to change our style of play on his own, he's only one player and he'll need time to come back to his best.

It does, but he had years at Bolton to get the right balance between graft and skill, succeeding. He's had 6 games here or something and the skill and better football will only start to show once this new team is settled and has gelled as a unit. I.e. after a good run of games. I don't think he intends us to play that kind of football at all. I certainly won't hold my breath. He'll build us into a solid organized side and with that we'll achieve some success, but I'll be surprised if he changes his habits and what he knows best. His signings all point towards long ball football and a team of grafters, let's be honest. We brought in Allardyce and we're getting Allardyce football - a year ago most people on here hated him and hated Bolton's football. For now I have the attitude of beggars can't be choosers. Winning ugly will do me to get us back up and challenging in the top 6. I believe he's capable of achieving that.

I think a club the size of ours can only afford to give time to a manager who has some kind of pedigree. Allardyce clearly qualifies there because he's done a brilliant job with Bolton. I was against giving Souness and Roeder too much time because there was no evidence of their managerial quality, nothing you could point at and say "see, we should keep the faith in this guy because he's delivered before". Keeping either of them for too long might have done a lot more damage. I'll give Allardyce far more benefit of the doubt than I ever gave those two because his record shows that he deserves time. Their record shows they didn't.