Wullie

Tempted to give meself a goal for that.

Surprised at Brazil.

Is he actually playing "on the wing"? I thought he was just pulling wide, Henry style. I had him down for the front of the Barca trio before the WC, not knowing too much about him, but he'll fit perfectly into that left hand spot.

Hart - 2008 Milner - 2009 Warnock - 2008 Dawson - Still hasn't made it. Probably more but I can't be arsed to look but we did have an older average squad age compared to most at this World Cup. Think we had the oldest overall actually... Italy surely?

Often said about England, and often valid, but this time I'm not sure there was an obvious "best team." Would have been nice to try other systems out though rather than just sticking with the old guard.

Exactly gimp. We didn't just struggle against Algeria, they passed us off the fucking park. We can't do possession football, it's all attempts at long rangers and 50 yard crossfield passes. How long have we been talking about hollywood balls with regards the national team? We've always had match winners but lack the ability to really control a game. With Spain i think it's the exact opposite, incidentally, until david villa turned up.

And if he was worried about being hyped, he shouldn't have done some of the stupid adverts he has prior to the tournament.

The Sun didn't print anything that made Wayne Rooney unable to control a ball. Just another excuse to get the powers that be off the hook.

I stand corrected, didn't know about that one. Think the germans have at least 11.

Do the shorts have a club crest on? I've not seen all the photos but can't see one on the ones i have.

3 tournament semi finals in our history from a nation of 60m with two of the world's most attended leagues and you reckon it's bad luck and refereeing decisions? At what do we have to look at what we're doing wrong instead of convincing ourselves the world is against us every two years?

Cheap and nasty. Club's approach to everything, no reason the shirts should be any different.

Ohmelads, if this were a one off i'd agree with you and i would have been agreeing even four years ago but this time something feels different. For a country the size of ours, where football is the most popular sport by some distance, to have reached three major semi finals in our entire history and to have a pool of quality players so limited that Heskey goes to two world cups simply for being strong, i think is a real concern.

It's not as much of a problem for Italy though as their style of football is similar to international football, so they can get used to it playing at home. The English style of football is totally different from international football, so our players can look world-beaters in the Premiership, but look lost when they're at the world cup. I think that people have identified that we're not going to win anything playing English football in international games, but unfortunately they've only managed to use that realisation to make things worse, not better. We now ask our players to carry on playing English style week after week, in the Premiership, but somehow flick a switch and play international style football for England. The idea is well intentioned, but it's a total waste of time if the Premiership doesn't change, which it won't because that's the reason it's so exciting and therefore successful. It seems to me that the only realistic option is for young English players to go abroad and learn how to play international style football and once they have they can come back if they want, as it doesn't seem to do players who already know how to play it too much harm when they go back to their national teams after having played in the Premiership. Basically it's not about players playing abroad as such, although that would obviously be beneficial, it's about players learning how to play in a more controlled and technical manner, which is something they won't get in this country - other than at Arsenal, perhaps - the way things are at the moment. A valid point about Italy, we agree on the fundamental issue that our players are not coming through in a footballing culture that is conducive to success at international level. I think it can be changed though but only through radical overhaul right down to grassroots level that I don't think we'll ever realistically see, especially in the current financial climate. You're right that the Premier League won't ever change its style but then it doesn't necessarily need to. It's not like teaching kids to look to pass the ball is going to slow the pace of the game down in this country. Even teams that often don't have a single Englishman in the side play the high tempo Premiership game, it's just that those players can then adapt themselves when asked to play at a slower pace and keep the ball more and ours can't. It's not going to harm clubs producing players who are comfortable on the ball, they'll still be Premier League players, just better Premier League players. It'll help them because they won't have to keep going out and buying foreign - unfortunately it's a results business and with the money in the game, that's a much easier and quicker way for clubs to operate than investing in a quality youth structure. A few of the quotes you posted, particularly from Chris Waddle, are from a Radio 5 show about the general state of English football, I highly recommend it: http://beta.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00t2ynq/World_Cup_South_Africa_2010_Out_of_Africa_Where_Next_for_English_Football/ The bit with Howard Wilkinson is the most interesting/frustrating. He compiled a "charter for quality" in 1997 when he was technical director, a plan for change at the FA with a view to seeing an England side in the World Cup final by 2010. Plans included a national football centre, coaching focusing on ball work and technique, kids to play less games per season and on smaller pitches and a general cultural move to 4-3-3 which he pinpointed as being increasingly key to international football. The FA basically scrapped every part of this charter over time and brushed it under the carpet - a few international football associations liked the ideas though and took them up and we're now seeing the results of that with the players they're producing... notably the German FA.

Every member of the Italy squad that won the last World Cup played in Italy. I think English players would benefit from going abroad but it's certainly not the main problem, it's deeper than that. If they've grown up in the English system, they're probably fairly rubbish technically anyway. It might not be that players won't go abroad but that foreign clubs don't want them.

I'd actually say England. Probably give you a different answer if you asked me in October though.

http://www.188promo.com/5j0c0g0r/ Have you done this? I done this. My bet didnt come in. And ive just had my £25 deposited back into my bank. So it works, in case anyone is sceptical. How long did it take to get it back, out of interest, still waiting for mine? Bloody useless Japs.

This physicality can't be that much of a hindrance if the majority of players in the top league are foreign. Don't think it's too much to ask that we produce footballers rather than just cloggers that we then add foreign flair to. The north east is supposed to be football mad - in my lifetime we've not produced five players capable of playing consistently well in central midfield in the top flight (where technique is most important). That's got fuck all to do with physicality, it's disgraceful really.

I've heard it too. About a dozen posts ago in fact.

What South America has: millions of urban poor with no X-Box and but loads of footie which is also seen as an escape route from poverty (rightly or wrongly). Well exactly, maybe the problem isn't not enough coaching or the quality of the coaching, it's simply too much coaching. These kids are being told what to do from 7 or 8 years old when they should be just messing around and trying stuff out. Nobody ever coached Lionel Messi to be able to get past 3 players at once.

How much coaching is there in South America? Can't imagine they've got academies coming out of their ears.

It's bet £25 as normal then if it loses, they reimburse it. Assume after that you can just withdraw it back out - hope so anyway.

That 188bet.com someone posted a few pages back.

There was an hour long show on radio5 last night about the whole issue. Only caught bits but it sounded very interesting. Should be on iplayer if anyone's interested.

£25 free bet on Japan in 90 minutes. Pays £78.