Rich

I know what you mean Dave, but Coloccini obviously prefers the left-sided role as well, given he's lined up there on every occasion since the relegation season. I wouldn't be shifting him. I'd just buy a better right-back and right centre-back, but I've been tooting this horn along with plenty of the rest of you for a long while now.

Suppose an alternative is to bring Marveaux and Obertan in for Cisse and Tiote and got to a 4-4-1-1 again with Marveaux in behind Ba, like we did there last season (but with Ben Arfa obviously).

Exactly what I was just gonna post in the pre-match thread Dave

I was personally impressed with Cisse last season in terms of his ability to "compete" with central defenders. He was far better at receiving the ball with a defender at his back and holding it than I was expecting him to be. It was all very basic stuff (i.e. receive it, engineer space if required and play a simple ball), but he did it well enough. You can see it's not the best facet to his game at all, as Tyson suggests, but he can certainly do it - you don't tend to excel as a lone striker otherwise, I suppose.

He's a pure gonk man.

FWIW I think it would actually be the right move to drop Cisse rather than stick him out on the right again in this one. Save him for later in the game if we're still in with a sniff and gamble that coming on fresh might see him make an impact.

I reckon Obertan and Jonas will play either side of Ba with Cisse dropping to the bench. Should be Marveaux in place of Jonas tbh but that's for another thread. Who comes into the centre? Bigi? I can't see it.

Got to admire the commitment and tenacity, especially on your part Jon. Seriously don't know how you can constantly be arsed arguing these types of positions. To try and move things along a little bit, does anyone else expect Cisse to be dropped for the Man Utd game? Think we'll see Shola coming in personally.

It's like a merry-go-round in here Wonder who's next up to take on Cajun and Unbelievable? Tag me back in, tag me back in!!

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart. Yeah I suppose so, had totally forgotten our initial approach that night to be honest. The personnel was canny different to what was successful last season mind and the Marveaux ploy to stop Baines was abysmal. Harper; Perch, Williamson, Taylor, Santon; Anita, Jonas; Marveaux, Cabaye, Ben Arfa; Cisse was the team. Almost half of our usual starters missing, Ben Arfa playing on the other side and it was only really the right side where we suffered IIRC. Think we've been equally as s**** or worse playing in different ways. You should have seen the prematch thread from the moment the team news was out that day. Then that abysmal, abysmal first half, reverting to 442 at half time (with Ba coming on) and ultimately looking decent value for a draw based on our second half performance. Edit: coincidentally, in that reply is one of the real reasons why we had a stop/start first half of the season. Just look at that back 5 FFS. In regards to the edit, I thought the same but then went and looked at our line-ups for the "good" 4-3-3 matches from last season (the 6 games from Norwich-Stoke) and realised the team was constantly unsettled then too (and missing "big" players a lot of the time). The defence for the 2-0 Liverpool win was Simpson, Williamson, Perch and Gutierrez

Everton first half for example, where we were completely taken apart. Yeah I suppose so, had totally forgotten our initial approach that night to be honest. The personnel was canny different to what was successful last season mind and the Marveaux ploy to stop Baines was abysmal. Harper; Perch, Williamson, Taylor, Santon; Anita, Jonas; Marveaux, Cabaye, Ben Arfa; Cisse was the team. Almost half of our usual starters missing, Ben Arfa playing on the other side and it was only really the right side where we suffered IIRC. Think we've been equally as shite or worse playing in different ways.

Where aside from Wigan has that formation looked vulnerable?

The only reason I don't want rid of him is because of the second paragraph there.

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%). In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%). I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12) and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning. Add Opta Stats to that hate list then.. These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner. Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point. So erm, would it be correct to also conclude from those stats that besides scoring 6 "sitters" this season Demba Ba has also scored 5 Premiership goals that weren't clear cut chances created for him as opposed to Cisse's 1 (being extremely generous with that considering he knew nothing about it)? And people give me stick for saying Papiss' finishing and movement have been below par and maybe the player himself is partly to blame for this..? I reckon it would, aye, but again it ignores a lot of the context surrounding the debate as arguments based purely on stats tend to do. I don't think anyone could really argue the last bit either, but there are undoubtedly other contributing factors that are giving him little to no chance of improving things (which is what most of us are frustrated about, I think).

Wullie. Definitely does, I should have acknowledged that it works both ways. We don't need the stats to tell us that he's been off-colour since day one but that he has hardly been getting any chances anyway, we've all seen enough this season to know that's the case. Just thought I'd chuck them in so people weren't idly speculating with random numbers as to how many chances he has actually been getting. He's definitely snatching and his decision making has been suspect all season, though I can't help but agree that he hasn't been helped by the way he has been utilised and by the way the team has been playing the game.

Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%). In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%). I don't understand why people like Ba (11), Michu (12) and Van Persie (12) have scored more than their totals suggest on there, and whilst it's obviously still somewhat subjective it at least points to Cisse being well behind other strikers this season as well as himself last season when it comes to chance conversion, which was my point from the beginning. Add Opta Stats to that hate list then.. These are just chances that have been fashioned for a striker that we'd typically consider "sitters". One-on-ones, free headers, unchallenged shots in the box, etc. Obviously not every goal is scored in such a manner. Of course I know it's not a perfect explanation of things by any stretch or on any scale, but like you say it does at least support your point.

This is the key part for me. It's undeniable that he hasn't been quite right since the season began, but I think it's also nigh-on impossible to argue against the fact that he's been severely hamstrung by our formation and style. People are rightly frustrated because of that and are "making excuses" for a player who showed himself to have the capability to be a truly world-class finisher last season. This player now finds himself playing right wing, a position in which he has never played before. As I said earlier, to me this is basically the equivalent of moving Andy Cole to the right wing during one of his barren runs. It's fucking lunacy. Usually when you have a striker of genuine class who hasn't "lost it" for any reason other than confidence and form (i.e. no severe injury causing a loss of ability) you persevere until they find their feet again. This is, of course, totally negating the wider (but extremely relevant) issue of us also abandoning the 4-3-3 setup that so many of us enjoyed last season.

I know it's stats and that, but just to help frame this current bit of debate around "chances": Opta Stats reckon Cisse has had 6 this season and he's scored 1 of them (16.66%). Last season in total he had 13 and scored 8 (62%). In terms of other players: Ba has had 12 and has scored 6 (50%), Michu has had 12 and scored 9 (75%), Fletcher has had 5 and scored 4 (80%), Defoe has had 9 and scored 5 (56%), Suarez has had 16 and scored 7 (44%) and Van Persie has had 19 and scored 6 (33%).

FM legend, but he'll undoubtedly be on mad bastard Russian wages.

Could have been as simple as Pardew pulling him up on a few goals we've conceded recently that could be blamed on him. Who knows? Agree that it seems unnecessary for it to have been turned into a story, though.

http://www.nerfwarlocks.org.uk/stuff/Nelson_haha.jpg

YOU FIRST.

Sweet as bro. Was just going to post that exact quote. Good lad Ryan.

Good bants on this MOTD. I like Al's beard as well.

Wide right. It's probably been said, but it's like playing Andy Cole wide-right for fuck's sake. As Wullie has definitely mentioned, if he has to play wide then why isn't it on the left in the role Ba played at times last season? I just don't know what we're attempting to do.