Cronky

It looks like we'll be entirely dependent on Hatem for any creativity, and he can't do it on his own. Pants selection.

I think we probably would. b****** of a time to be that good. Look at his record at Real, look at his last season with Manchester United. He's up there. He's up there amongst the very best? Please enlighten me. Scoring tons of goals against lesser teams and disappearing in big games doesn't really help his cause tbh. Agreed. If he was a cricketer, he'd be called a flat-track bully.

I think we'll see one or two players coming in in January. It's the norm to be cynical about Ashley, but I don't think he'll want to go through the experience of relegation again.

I think part of it is that our transfer policy means we're always likely to end up with a team that's a bit of a square peg and we have to find a way of jamming it in a round hole. If anyone else would be better at ramming it in the hole than Pardew, I dunno. Pardew has to share at least some of the blame for the transfer policy, because whilst he doesn't have the final say, it doesn't go on without his input either. Our last two major buys - Cisse and Anita - didn't address the most significant gaps in the team. We already had three centre forward-types and CM wasn't the weakest either. In terms of prioritising, we could have done better, and Pardew's judgement has to be questioned.

Leaving aside the debate about whether he is 'better' than Pele or Maradona, I'd say he's carved out his own unique place in the game. Muller was an out and out goal poacher who contributed very little else to his team's play. No-one would have predicted that a player like Messi, who often picks the ball up from deep and joins in the build-up, would beat his record. And has there ever been a player who operates so well in tight spaces with opponents all over him? I couldn't say that the other two were 'better'.

We don't seem to have a vision of how the team is aiming to play. Teams like Wigan, Swansea, Southampton and Fulham have been built to play in a certain way. Their players as individuals don't generally match ours, but they function well as teams. Our strategy seems confused and we keep chopping and changing. And a major source of that muddle lies with the strikers, and our obsession with somehow trying to find a formation that suits both Ba and Cisse.

I've been there a while.

I don't think we can afford to let Sammy go. We don't have much creativity in midfield and he's one of the few that, for all his inexperience, can make things happen, if only from the bench. It bothers me that on Thursday we played the second half with Abeid, Anita and Bigi in midfield. At Stoke we had Tiote, Anita, Jonas and Perch. Pardew himself was that type of player, and I wonder whether he tends to over-rate the sort of contribution that they're likely to make. The balance doesn't look right.

Nah, not having that, like. He used to ping at least one 50 yard+ ball, to the winger/forwards feet, a game. Fire off enough arrows and one of them is going to hit the target. Some major collective amnesia is going on here. Bramble could get some distance on the ball, but that did not make him a good passer.

Bramble was strong in the tackle and in the air, but incredibly clumsy with the ball at his feet. He didn't pass the ball, he just banged it and hoped it would hit a team-mate at some point in its flight path.

He's said himself that he's having to deal with a transition. A few weeks ago he was a kid with no expectations placed on him, who was just told to go out and express himself. Now he feels he has to make a consistent contribution like a senior player. In practice, the gap between the two isn't at all distinct, but he looks like a player who's a bit tense and inhibited right now. It seems to have got into his head a bit. Even so, in the first half, he went past his opponents two or three times, and opened things up. Yes, he gave the ball away a lot but I didn't think he should have been taken off. He needs to work through this phase. It was effectively a meaningless reserve game, and there won't be better opportunities. Besides, it wasn't as though the change improved us.

You know you're a scapegoat when Bramble gets held up as a shining example.

It was good to see him back. He did well in some very unpromising situations, showing just how strong he is. But as others have said, to be a striker you need to keep your head when in a goalscoring position. That's where practice by repetition comes in. It'd be interesting to see him as the main striker, rather than out wide or in a front two where the ball is hoofed long to him, which is how it was tonight.

Well, who knows. Sometimes people do turn a corner. If so, he'd be a big asset.

The red card rule came in because it was felt that a free kick for a foul in a goalscoring position outside the area wasn't sufficient punishment. That's true enough, but there is another possible punishment that they can look at for in that situation - namely a penalty. That feels like a more appropriate punishment and would at least end the problem of when such a foul is committed inside the box, when it does feel harsh to add a red card as well - often for genuine attempts at getting the ball. The punishment would effectively be the same whether inside or outside the area. Refs could add a yellow or red card according to their usual judgement as to how bad the foul was.

It looks like Jonas is the major casualty of a move to 4-3-3. I don't know where he fits in.

Very much this. Despite us having better players it suprised me how much wigan tried to play it on the floor even with ten. Anita had a very good game for me and looks better with every game. This - good post. Anita will become a real asset once he totally adjusts to the PL game and pace...look how poor Colo was in his first season. Anita has good control, finds space off the ball and never stops trying. Marveaux is comfortable in possession and that's why he looks better than most of the players. I am still to be convinced that he will be a regular because he is not keen on the Physical side of the PL and he is older than Anita but he did well tonight. Better approach to the game in first half and we were somewhat fortunate with the pen...I don't think we'd have had a chance of it if we'd been at most away grounds, and the sending off for their player clearly took the pressure off us. Second half was getting tediously close to the crap stuff we have watched in the past few games, but Bigirimana's fine goal took the dross off it - this boy is going to be a good player and the way he created the space for the shot was excellent. Not convinced by Ba and Cisse together, and one will undoubtedly be on the move before long, most probably Ba and I think that with the right replacement we could look a different side. Neither of these players can hold up the ball when its played up to them and both prefer to try and blind-side defenders by their runs so we need a good target man. Pleased we got the points but there are tougher battles ahead and we need to be out of trouble by mid-Jan or Pardew will be under the cosh again. It was obious to any watcher that Martinez' teams play better football and that with better players, ours included, he would be producing quality sides. You can see why Liverpool wanted him but the fact that he turned them down(and other factors)mean that he is unlikely to want to leave Wigan for SJP. I'm not completely convinced about Anita yet, but otherwise, I'd agree with all of that. I think Martinez has those players performing above themselves. He certainly brought the best out of Zoggy, whose career pre and post Wigan hasn't hit those heights. There isn't the same pressure when playing for Wigan, so it remains to be seen how Martinez would do at a bigger club. But if our situation becomes vacant, I'd definitely take a punt.

No, your view is realistic. Against Stoke, none of the front six were comfortable on the ball. Tonight, we had one - Marveaux. That's still not enough. Just don't agree with that at all. Someone's already said; no one had less than 80% pass completion. It wasn't perfect but the passing and movement was much better, from all of the front six. Both our full-backs had good games too, which really helped. A lot of the passing was conservative - backwards or sideways to retain possession rather than open things up. I'm pleased and relieved we won, but we were given far more time and space than is normal in the Premiership, and that's because we were playing at home, against a lower half of the table side, who had 10 men for 75 minutes.

No, your view is realistic. Against Stoke, none of the front six were comfortable on the ball. Tonight, we had one - Marveaux. That's still not enough.

I just hope to Christ that isn't Pardew or Ashley's view of the game. We still have a lot of work to do and changes to make.

In the absence of Ben Arfa and Cabaye, Marveaux has to play. His technical ability made a difference tonight. Ba and Cisse were both horribly clumsy at holding the ball up. For the 1000000000000000000th time, we should aim to play only one of them, and that's as a main striker. Relieved to get the win, but we still need to use January to make some changes. That wasn't convincing.

Neville is talking out of his arse. Is Cisse supposed to get out of the way?

Yes, by the rules, it was a red. I'd like the rules to change though. For any foul in a goalscoring position, no matter where the offence, I'd give a pen and a yellow, rather than a red.

It should be a comfortable win, but we've got to keep playing positively and look for more goals. We're getting lots of time and space, but we're so nervous in possession in the midfield.

Interesting parallel, Dave. Towards the end, we made the mistake of bending over backwards to please Shearer and paid a heavy price for it. If Ba is unhappy at the club, or he doesn't want to play where the manager thinks is best for the team, then he can take his miserable face somewhere else.