TRon

Being a pundit on ESPN is a lot easier and probably pays well enough in case the call never comes.

:lol: You have got to be winding me up. :lol: You have got to be winding me up. You must consider yourself more of an expert than Bobby Robson who loved the likes of Dyer and N'Zogbia, but didn't rate either Nolan or Ryan Taylor when we signed them. I think Robson's record speaks for itself tbh.

Keegan and O'Neill have always been fantastic at spending other people's money. Unfortunately in this day and age it's not considered much of an asset unless the returns can justify it. MON spent a fortune with the blessing of an owner who was considered ideal on this board a couple of seasons ago. Where are Villa now after all their extravagant outlay?

It wasn't two or three years ago, but the fact that you think it was sheds a lot of light on why you think Nolan is an upgrade.

cracking post #2 No one is saying we should be Barcelona right now btw, it's just the sort of football we should aspire to. I also look forward to seeing what impact Ireland has as he's the kind of midfielder who can be part of a good passing side provided his head is on right.

I don't really have a comment on that debate. The issue I have is how we progress from where we are right now, and the key areas, imo, are strikers, a right winger and then it's Nolan's position in the team. I think we're good enough in all other areas to be real challengers for Europe season-in season-out. Football is about controlling the game. If you have the ball, the other team will always find it hard to score, regardless of how good your defence is. Sure, you may have some shit defenders who are prone to mistakes (ahem, Arsenal), but if you control the ball for most of the match, you're going to end up winning more often than not (this Arsenal exemplifies). Which means, then, that you need excellent midfielders with some mobile strikers who can exploit the weaknesses in opposition teams to controll the ball and dominate the match. Take a look at Barca and their players. Their three midfielders aren't particularly fast nor do they particularly excel at goal-scoring, but they control the ball so well that their defence can push up so high and choke the opposition strikers out of the game. Their defence has good players, but it's the shape of the team and their style of football that enables them to control the game and thus concede very few goals. It's the midfield and the strikers that allows this to happen. I look at our team and I see players who contribute in this intangible way. I see Jonas - in his good days - who is one of the best outlets in our team, who allows our defence to push up, who pushes the other teams back which allows us to control the game. I saw Carroll who was able to hold the ball up and intimidate defences, which allowed our midfielders more time on the ball. I think Tiote is a magnificent player - probably the most important player in our team right now - and he's a player who's good on the ball and contributes so much to the shape of the team. Then I look at Nolan and all I see is goals. That would actually be fine if he was a striker, but he's not. He's occupying one of the most crucial positions on the pitch, and goals alone just aren't enough. They're more than enough now, for us, for a newly promoted team and for a team which would be more than happy at finishing 10th, but they will not be enough if we want to challenge regularly for Europe. He just doesn't contribute enough. That doesn't mean that he's not contributing enough now, because he does, but if we are to aspire to more, then I think it's less likely that we do so if he's a starter in the team. Cracking post #1 Pretty much what I believe as well.

Did you see our midfield performances earlier in the season when Nolan was out injured? We looked far more limited with Barton or Guthrie in the centre alongside Tiote - and yet Barton is far more mobile than Nolan and theoritically a better footballer... As I've said, it's very easy to overlook the tactical know-how that Nolan brings to the team but there's good evidence to suggest that it's far more valuable than a lot of people realise. When Barton has played alongside Tiote we've lost Barton out wide which upsets the balance. I still think there's nothing wrong with a Barton/Tiote combination in the centre provided the wide players are doing their bit, i.e. not disappearing up their own arse as Routledge was prone to.

The fact that a midfielder at a newly promoted club is the premier league's joint third highest scorer, and is still getting so much criticism is frankly ridiculous. We've had years of apparently hard working players who struggle to score from midfield and we moan about it. We now have a player who can score from midfield, and we want rid for a harder working player who looks a bit fitter. Pointing to the fact that Nolan looks better because Tiote does the graft in midfield misses the point slightly. Tiote also looks immense as a defensive midfielder as he is given so much of that work to do in the system that the team play. They are both doing their jobs fantasically well at the moment. We generally haven't invested well in that position, Lee and Dyer being probably the two most successful examples. Bowyer came on a free, Emre was not cut out for English football and Parker was really a defensive midfielder. I honestly wish we'd given Darren Ambrose a shot there or Milner.

How many Russian & Arab billionaires have O'Neill & KK worked for? I am thinking 1 in total. They both demanded big budgets from big clubs which they got - and then walked away from when they were asked to cut back to balance the books. There is no criticism here, just stating the facts. Please don't tell me you believe the bullshit about Keegan walking away because he wasn't given the 200 million he demanded so he could sign Beckham, Henry and Lampard. I was thinking more of the time he walked away under Shepherd and Hall. After the club became a public company Keegan was unhappy that there were going to be financial restrictions and called it a day. Considering how well he'd been backed for two or three years before that it wasn't unreasonable to be asked to work within a budget but Keegan didn't want to know.

it's crap if you compare it with his previous spell at Liverpool and Newcastle where he took over successful teams and guided them slowly downwards after starting well with teams other managers had built.

The one time we needed Ryan Taylor he's got sent off. It would be forgiveable if it was to prevent a goal or even in retaliation...but it was only to cover his own lack of touch and ability. Fuck me, Martins used to get pilloried for his lack of touch yet we sold him for close to £10m and he's come back and won a shit team like Birmingham a cup. It would be funny if it wasn't so predictable.

Good quote that. It shows Pardew knows his business. Technically Nolan isn't bad at all, but compare him as an athlete to Gerrard or Lampard and the comparison becomes embarrassing. That's the bit Pards left out.

How many Russian & Arab billionaires have O'Neill & KK worked for? I am thinking 1 in total. They both demanded big budgets from big clubs which they got - and then walked away from when they were asked to cut back to balance the books. There is no criticism here, just stating the facts.

Keegan is similar to Martin o'Neill in that they aren't interested in bank balances they just want the quality players to keep rolling through the door. Once you start talking about reducing wage bills and balancing the books they are off. Unfortunately unless you have russian/arab billionaire owners those conditions don't exist elsewhere these days.

Who ever claimed it was? It's an opinion, albeit one that is more informed than most as he actually worked under them. Nothing more, nothing less. what is the actual likelyhood of keegan knowing our summer transfer policy? Not a lot. Ashley was pretty naive in the early days and his lack of football knowledge was a big handicap....especially considering the team he appointed to run things. I would like to think he's learned a bit since then and that the club is more stable and on a better financial footing. Pardew does seem to be getting a lot more backing when it comes to hiring backroom staff for example.

We bought Colo, Gutierrez, Bassong and Xisco that season as well if I'm not mistaken. We did spend money but it was put in the wrong hands with Dennis Wise. That relationship was the big downfall IMO.

We did....just not on the players Keegan wanted.

Also Pardew has said that Ashley has made a statement of intent by handing Tiote a new contract to scupper talk we are a selling club. He can't show that intent by sitting on the money come the summer. We shall see.

KK was managing under different circumstances back then, and he was at obvious loggerheads on how any money should be spent and on whom. Pardew is Ashley's appointment and he's just sold a player for £35m. If he doesn't get to spend a fair chunk of that I'll be surprised.

Whilst I appreciate what you are saying, that's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it. First, you would have to consider whether they are goals that could have been scored by a) someone else in the team doing the same job (ie standing in front of the keeper at corners or b) in his position as a midfielder breaking from deep. That's an even more simplistic way of looking at it tbh, because it's disregarding one of the most little-found elements in a central midfielder's game. How many other midfielders in Europe have scored as many from his position this season? I bet you could count them on one hand. The debate that we're having in this thread about Nolan is deja vu -- the same discussions took place over Laurent Robert in the Robson era. Most people didn't realise the value of his goals and assists until it was too late. That's pretty much what i've said...? Part a) addresses whether these goals could have been scored by someone else on the team had they taken up the set play position he did (which is controllable) and part b) addresses whether another midfielder playing in his position would score the amount of goals. This would weigh up his finishing ability, his ability to time his runs, but then also the fact that that is his role in the team and he is given the licence to do so. Sorry, by responding to my defence of Nolan I actually thought you were using that as an argument against him -- saying that other players could bring the same qualities; which is obviously extremely debatable. I don't like the argument that he doesn't cover enough ground either, going back to your original post. He's not the most mobile (although nowhere near as immobile as people like to make out), but as I said a few pages back, mobility isn't the be-all/end-all in midfield and he has Tiote alongside him for that purpose anyway. More important is having the intelligence to be in the right places and to hold the shape of the team; Nolan excels at that more than anything else. It was very noticeable when he was absent earlier in the season - our midfield were poor even with Tiote in the middle. I think he covers enough ground, just does it too slowly. How is he going to close players down if he can't get close to them? What he does do is drop back and try and plug the gaps he leaves which is the next best thing and I am in agreement that this is part of holding the shape which is in his favour. What we lose out on is another midfielder capable of pressing the ball like Tiote, or capable of playing one two's with other forwards or midfielders because he doesn't have the legs for it. In my view this is part of the reason there always seems to be a big gap between the midfield and attack.

Whilst I appreciate what you are saying, that's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it. First, you would have to consider whether they are goals that could have been scored by a) someone else in the team doing the same job (ie standing in front of the keeper at corners or b) in his position as a midfielder breaking from deep. Secondly, you have to ask whether the goals he scores (having addressed the first point) outweigh the negativs he brings to the team. Ie his lack of mobility and his inability to get around the pitch, but also his positives - ie leadership. Personally, I am fairly ambivalent on Nolan. He has won me over this season with his goals and his leadership qualities. However, if we are to make a concerted push for Europe next season, I think he will be one of the weaker links in the team. Basically what I have been saying as well. It's true I called him a fat pub footballer previously which was harsh, but he's still a midfielder who will suit long ball teams better.

won't they make money in Europe next year? EDIT: is the Waffa final the Europa cup? didn't realise that's what you were referring to.

Why isn't he the kind of player England would call upon then? Because he hasn't been called upon by England? So the reason why he's not the kind of player England would call upon is...."because he hasn't been?" Why is it relevant? Some players are effective at club level without quite being international class -- Nolan is one of those players. I don't think that anyone could say that Nolan as a goal scorer is inferior to any current England midfielder, in fact the stats show he's better than most. So it's obviously the other parts of his game which are considered lacking. That doesn't mean he can't be an effective club player, but the same limitations means while he's here we'll be limited as well. Limited in what sense though? With him in the team we're playing well, defending quite solidly and creating chances for the forwards. He may not be a Champions League standard midfielder, but Jesus, we've just been promoted -- he's more than good enough to help with a Europa League push. I am ok with that but that's why I keep stressing it's more with a view to next season when we will be looking to improve a few positions. Leon Best has done well as a striker so far but I'm sure no one would suggest that we shouldn't sign another striker because we're going ok and he's scoring.

That just shows how important the position is and the value of a player who can do it well. Personally I would like us to use some of the Carroll money to target another potential Wilshere. Assuming there's no ready made foreign player available for a reasonable fee like Tiote.