tmonkey

A good way to get your kid into cricket would be to take him to see an Alan Pardew team attempting to play football.

Gouffran hasn't played a single good pass, made a single good dribble, provided a single decent cross, or posed any goal threat whatsoever, in about half a year. Jonas a couple of seasons ago spent the entire season on the wing doing absolutely nothing. That's the type of player Alan Pardew wants - and when he gets 'his' players, we'll be in the Championship again in no time. Our best player, someone who the team should have been built around, someone who should have played in his best position in every single minute of Premiership football, someone who constantly tries tried to carry the team and create things out of nothing, has been forced out by a manager who rewards absolutely mediocrity. There really are no words to appropriately describe the absolute farce that has been Pardew's mismanagement of Ben Arfa.

He's the Ali Dia of management. An absolute fraud.

We can but dream.

He had plenty of chances to establish himself at Chelsea, especially in the 6 months prior to Mourinho's arrival and with a shot Torres as his only competition. Fact is he looked useless in the Premiership in front of a midfield that contained the likes of Lampard, Oscar and Mata, and only really came alive in the cup competitions. His all round game just isn't good enough. In fact, he's a p*ss poor footballer outside of the box, and needs goals to mask how mediocre he is elsewhere on the pitch. I've never really understood why so many of our fans considered Ba to be a good all-round footballer when he did the sum of sod all in general play and slowly progressed from "meh, runs into the box alright" to "can't control a ball or pass it" during that 4-3-3 period where he was out wide on the left and his confidence dropped with every goalless game.

Not a world class finisher. He's not "clutch" at all. That's what you need your main striker to be if you want to win the league. He's a fine player no doubt. But would you have him ahead of Rooney, RVP, Aguero et al.? Not a chance. He could partner one no doubt but as the main man? Not in that stratosphere. He's good but not great. One of the best strikers around at getting on the end of a cross - seems to read crosses very well and very early and is moving laterally/diagonally before the centreback has had time to react - but it's definitely the finishing where he's a a let down. One of those strikers who's frequently doing well to get on the end of a ball into the box, but doesn't do enough to ensure it ends up in the back of the net on a consistent basis.

If the £8m clause isn't time/window restricted, then it makes sense for him to wait it out with QPR rather than take a sideways step and lose the attraction a clause like that will generate.

Thought at the beginning of last season, based purely on the visible changes in Hatem's physique/playing style, that Pardew had put Ben Arfa on a different training regime to bulk him up, and also asked him to blast the ball at goal at any/every opportunity (which is why in the first few months of the season Hatem was shooting wildly from 30-40 yards out when it's not his normal game to try shooting so speculatively from that range, and also why he started to look a bit "meatier"). Coincidentally, this was shortly after Bale had been the standout player in the country - i.e. in Pardew's simple mind the solution to the Ben Arfa "problem" was to try to turn him into Bale (similar to Tiote and Essien). This Cabella bulking up nonsense imo adds weight to this theory that Pardew has experimented with Hatem. Probably won't be long before Cabella is being asked to shoot more often from 25-35 yards out as Pardew tries to cover our horrendous lack of creativity with more speculative long range shots and aimless balls into the box.

This is all well and good in theory, but it's based on a very lazy portrayal of Hatem being lazy (which is itself exceptionally ironic). For example, we have all this criticism of Hatem being selfish, lazy, not willing to put a shift in, not a team player, etc etc, yet quite recently when thrown back into the team randomly, Ben Arfa spent the entire first half against Southampton in his own half defending at every opportunity and ensuring Shaw barely got a sniff in the 45 minutes he was on the pitch. Yet he still got taken off at half time because Southampton had ripped us apart with their superior coached football (albeit with a 1-0 scoreline only irrc), and the criticisms of Hatem's "laziness" were still bandied about. He did everything Pardew wanted him to do, everything Ben Arfa supposedly doesn't do (according to his critics), and it still wasn't enough to stop him being the fall guy as Southampton showed exactly how football should be played and coached (something Pardew can't do). Not only that, but Hatem in that Southampton first half was about as extreme a defensive winger as you can get. The point here shouldn't be lost - wingers should not be playing like that. I feel like we're living in an insane world where everything is twisted and we have wingers being scolded for not running all the way to the fullback slots when the team loses the ball. Furthermore, this "lazy, doesn't track back" argument is utter nonsense imo, and based on sheer exaggeration of something all players (especially talented ones) do. David Silva, Juan Mata, Eden Hazard, even Adam Llalana - Ben Arfa tracks back far more than they do (the big difference with them I would argue isn't that they're better players, but that when they don't track back it doesn't frequently result in a goal for the opposition because their teams aren't as utterly s*** at defending as we are). If anything, under Pardew Hatem has spent far too much pitch time defending near his fullback when he should have been further up the pitch trying to cause damage. Maybe the correct criticism should be that Hatem is really weak in the tackle and so he sometimes lets his man go past him whilst he's easily brushed aside, but then that's an obviously harsh criticism to make given that he's an attacking winger.

Got to be better than Pardew. But then again didn't Beardo assault a teenager or something?

"Michael Owen was class for us. That's why he ended up at title winning ManU." Performances > "facts".

Not all players motivate themselves - someone like Ben Arfa with outrageous natural talent is all the more likely to go off the rails without the right people around him in both his personal and professional life. We've seen it numerous times with players, even greats - the ones that stick out in the mind like a sore thumb tend to be the Brazilian greats (fat Ronaldo, fat Ronaldinho, etc). However, none of this excuses what Pardew has done with NUFC and with Ben Arfa in particular last season. Playing a Shola Ameobi who could barely run only a couple of months ago (the exact same Shola who only clubs in China and Australia seem to be interested in), refusing to play 4-3-3, refusing to play Ben Arfa in a consistent fixed position (in a Pardew team that should always be on the right of the front 3), hanging him out to dry in an attempt to conceal horrendous levels of managerial incompetence, etc etc. Furthermore, the two issues may be connected - Ben Arfa wasn't fat at the start of last season, though he looked to have bulked up, and when he was ripping Aston Villa apart noone was complaining about his fitness. It's highly possible/likely that being demotivated under Pardew, on top of having zero chance of ever getting into the national side with Dechamps in charge, has led to him just thinking "why bother?" and binging his way through the spring/summer. Assuming he's still fat at the start of the season of course (otherwise this entire discussion will be utterly irrelevant).

Happy to see him go and hopefully replaced by someone who is solid defensively. Next up, Tiote hopefully.

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was. There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion. Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones. He's scored in: 2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals 2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both) 2011 Supercup Final 2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists. Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh. Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism. "Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best: - Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context. - Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed. - Best at international level? Nowhere near. I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games. P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to. IMO anyway. Messi that scored in both Champions League finals and was Man of the Match in both? He's undoubtedly a big game player as well. I've listed the finals that he's scored in. I dunno, it just seems like everyone's suddenly forgotten because of the World Cup Final. It's honestly on the level of being 'if you don't think he's the best you've ever seen (unless you've seen Pele or Maradona) then you're either being a contrarian, or you know nothing about football.' It's on that level of pig-headed arrogance about it. To me suggesting otherwise is totally insane. Scored in those finals (one a header from a cross after being out of the game for most of the match, and the other a frustrated shot straight down the middle that should have been saved by an aging keeper who retried straight after), yes, but in both games against ManU he was ultimately kept very quiet. I'm going by what I've seen in those games - imo neither performance was good nor up to Messi's normal standards. He played no better than e.g. David Villa or Pedro, who also scored in those finals iirc. I just wanted to see him have great games against the top sides when the pressure is high, not just be clamped down on and reduced to maybe scoring an unexpected goal to mask an average/poor performance - evidently that was an unrealistic expectation. As an analogy for this point of view, Zidane's 98 World Cup final goals, and his volley (probably one of the greatest volleys of all time behind van Basten's) against Leverkusen in the CL final, neither of them weigh all that heavily on how I rate him as a great, as imo in both games he was fairly poor/quiet overall. What I rate Zidane on is the numerous big games for club and country in crunch stages of the biggest competitions (CL, European Championships, World Cup) where he dominated games, pulled the strings, tore a quality team apart or damaged them psychologically by toying with them. E.g. Zidane over two legs vs one of the best ManU sides Alex Ferguson had in the 02/03 CL, he didn't score any goals and didn't get any assists (unless that pass to Figo counts as one), but he was phenomenal in those games, utterly untouchable, and was just as good against Juve in the semi's where his team got knocked out because they couldn't defend. The fact that he didn't score goals in these games, didn't win a trophy, didn't even get to the CL final that season, means little to me - he was utter class in the big games against top teams, and that's the baseline for me (performances over stats). I believe my views to be consistent in this regard. I think Zidane has had considerably better games in the biggest competitions against top calibre opposition than Messi in this regard, hence why I would hesitate to say Messi was definitely better - it depends on context/scenario for me.

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was. There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion. Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones. He's scored in: 2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals 2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both) 2011 Supercup Final 2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists. Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh. Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism. "Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best: - Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context. - Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed. - Best at international level? Nowhere near. I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games. P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to, and so when they can't use their physical advantages (pace, acceleration, balance, etc) they're just not that effective. IMO anyway.

We can agree to disagree. Personally don't see how Iniesta ever got close to Euro 2000 Zidane. Absolutely nowhere near that at any stage of his career for Spain.

No. Just no. So how did Zidane only manage 1 league title and 1 CL in his 5 years at Madrid during the galacticos era? Both have won their country World Cups and Iniesta has more Euro Championships. Zidane was considerably better than Iniesta at international level. Iniesta was more part of a midfield that controlled games than a standout performer who was the sole difference between his team being utterly rubbish or not. When Zidane "played," France were class - without him they were utterly hopeless (as evinced by their 2002 WC group stage knockout when Zidane was injured iirc). For Madrid there are a large number of factors to consider as to why Zidane didn't win much there. For example: - Perez going and getting rid of Makelele/replacing him with David Beckham. Shoe-horning a long ball merchant into central midfield (a position Beckham really wasn't suitable for at that time) in a side with players who wanted to play slick football wrecked that side's balance, especially since Makelele was absolutely key defensively given the number of attacking players who weren't going to put in a massive shift off the ball in that lineup. - Perez going all Freddy Shepherd and firing Del Bosque for no real reason after winning a league title, and then having a new manager in nearly every season. I think the Madrid job quickly became the biggest poisoned chalice in the sport (after us of course), and this was pointed out by a few pundits/writers iirc. - Key players very quickly declined, but weren't replaced or appropriately challenged by new signings because of that Galatico policy of selling noone, buying one major star - Carlos on his last legs, Ronaldo went fat, untouchable Raul declined pretty quickly, Figo paceless (though still class), Zidane himself declined for a while (2004-2006 he was pretty mediocre), Hierro already finished, etc. It's like Barcelona winning nothing this year - can't really judge Iniesta's greatness based on this, especially if Iniesta starts to decline himself.

Iniesta is great, but firmly a level below where Zidane was imo.

I think some folk are missing the point with this Messi "debate". When he was at his best for Barca, there was (as an analogy) a group of people calling him the best player ever because of his ridiculous goalscoring records/consistency, and another (considerably smaller) group who questioned how he would fare if he wasn't in such a fantastic Barcelona side that was built around him, since when you not only compare him to, but declare him to be better than, someone like Maradona (who transformed nothing teams like Napoli and Argentina into winning Serie A and the World Cup respectively) there needs to be some sort of feat where Messi's heart/fighting spirit/leadership/ability to be the talisman/raise the level of a team/etc can be analysed and compared. Especially with Xavi and Iniesta controlling games and allowing Messi to add the finishing touches with his explosiveness - Spain comfortably winning Euro 2008, and to a lesser extent the 2010 World Cup, was clear evidence of just how good Xavi and Iniesta were at controlling games. Since there was no chance of Messi moving to e.g. West Brom and single handedly transforming them into a Premiership winning side, the World Cup was meant to have been his chance to cement himself as the best player ever because of how average this Argentina side were meant to be and how the team was going to be built around him. I think some folk expected him to have to win it in order to prove himself as up there with (or on top of) the all time greats, but others (I'd lump myself in here) only expected him to shine and be the talisman player for his team, irrespective of whether that meant a World Cup win or not. I think this is a perfectly reasonable line of thinking and therefore his performances in this and previous World Cups are definitely relevant to the overall perception of his "greatness".

Messi

Needed a Zidane volley there Leo.

Justice for the Germans!

Aguero just needs a goal to mask to numerous failed attempts at dribbling and it'll be a standard Premiership performance from him.

Neuer knows exact what he's doing. Jens Lehman and Harald Schumacher would testify to that.

German keeper does it again