Mick

Martins was possibly going to be out for a couple of weeks from the date of his operation which was performed a week today and we've got 1 1/2 weeks until we play Man City. He'll do well to get back but I wouldn't rule it out yet.

I hope Kinnear isn't looking for a keeper tonight.

I had forgotten all about the game and turned it on as he was taken off.

Mbia has just been taken off after 80 minutes.

I don't claim to be ITK but here goes: If a club goes into administration then they automatically have points docked, I think it's currently a 10-point deduction. As for your second question, it's possible because Bates remained in charge when Leeds had problems. Third answer is no. Fourth answer, it's impossible to know. Fifth answer, it's impossible to know. The Parachute payment was £11.2 million per year for two seasons, it may have gone up this year. The value of the club is basically how much somebody is willing to pay for it.

The recession was looming long before Ashley bought the club, Northern Rock were nationalised within months of the club changing hands and the financial news had been all doom and gloom for months before that. If Ashley was looking to sell, why was he accused of failing to answer his phone when the Man City owners were looking for a club? When was Ashley getting pissed in New Yory while trying to sell the club?

Exactly, he didn't start the rot. It's fair enough to have a go at him for having failed to stop it but to blame him for starting it is crazy.

When Ashley bought the club financially it wasn't in the best of health but the finances were not so bad they couldn't be managed. Not only that he came in at a time where there was endless goodwill and positivity about the place with a new manager who many considered to be the right man for the job at the time, a good experienced manager. Times have changed, we're more than 12 months into a global recession, try going to your bank and asking for a loan, you'll probably come out thinking you've just wasted your time as the banks are loaning very little and even when they do it's at a premium rate. A normal loan is currently carrying close to 10% interest, if you can get one. Ashley had an estimated wealth of £1.8 billion, he's currently estimated to have a third of that and he's not alone as most people have seen a massive reduction in wealth. Edit, according to The Times it was still £1.4 billion in an August 2008 publication. Our owner doesn't have as much money and none of us know how much of his wealth is actually a liquid asset or how much is paper wealth. I would swap Shepherd for Ashley in a heartbeat but then I'd swap Emre for Nicky Butt in a heartbeat, doesn't mean I'd like to see either back here though as that would be a backwards step. Shepherd has had his time and while he did do some good he ultimately undone it all towards the end. Having said that the appointment of Sam Allardyce which was a sign he'd accepted what state we were in and what needed to be done, could have been a real turning point for him and indeed the club. We'll never know. I'm not sure how we'll never know about Allardyce, he had a go and didn't do too well, people also seem to forget about what he served up while here. He brought his own players in and we were shockiing while he was here. Banners and protesters did not force Ashley to put the club up for sale, it had always been up for sale and still is, like the opportunist he is he simply used the protests to publicly declare the club was for sale in order to speed up his exit. The timing was perfect too because around the corner loomed a recession which you'd imagine he knew all about running a retail giant and all that jazz. A recession wasn't around the corner when he put the club up for sale, we were at least 8 months into it, he couldn't have picked a worse time to try to sell up. He went to Dubai to try and sell the club but even they are having cash flow problems as a lot of wealth i tied up in investments which have fallen in value. They've invested in a market which has come to a shuddering halt, they are in serious s*** financially. So its the fans' fault eh? f***ing bull! Kinnear is here because Ashley couldn't persuade KK not to resign when they met prior to the Hull match, several days after this all kicked off, a time he spent partying in New York. Kinnear is also here because no-one wants a job where they'll be undermined. Fergie and Wenger came out to support KK and said they'd do the same if they were being undermined. Not that any of this validates the complete and utter mismanagement of the club since that fateful week. Months have passed and things have only gotten worse. The fans have played a part in this if the protests forced him into the sale, neither of us know what happened between Ashley and Keegan. I'll make my conclusions once we find out what went on, if we do find out. You can spend your way out of trouble if you have the right man in the dugout. Souness was not that man so handing him all that money was a mistake, a massive one, and should have been handed to Sir Bobby before him or to entice a much better manager. Credit for splashing the cash though, something that needs to happen now, or we go down. Simple as that. You can spend your way out of trouble, like I said you can also spend your way into it, like we did. We've done it more than once, that's why it took sir Bobby so long to turn things around, he was shopping in the bargain basement more than we are now. A lot of those players Allardyce signed were 2nd and 3rd on the list players. We missed out on several players according to him due to the inexperience of the new owner and chairman and due to the internal review that was going on. Anyway, Sam had 21 games or so and yes we were playing s**** and results weren't good enough but with the right backing and support from all he'd have turned us around, maybe not top 6 or top 4 material but certainly not true relegation candidates which is what we are today. I guess we'll never know though and that goes for both our view points. Who were those 1st on Allarcyce's list and how do you know they would have been bought without Ashley or if Allardyce would have had any more success with those than he had with the ones he did get? When he left we were relegation candidates, we had a team with no confidence and they were running into a set of games which we would have got nothing from, where was the confidence going to come from? I'd like to think we'd be better off on the pitch if Shepherd was still in control with Allardyce as manager. The debt levels were a concern but I'm sure one of the reaons for Allardyce's appointment was his ability to get results on a budget as he successfully did at Bolton and no doubt will do at Ewood Park. You don't know what his budget would have been, he didn't show any ability while here to do any better. No-one to my mind is changing history, perhaps wondering what could have been aye, but the Ashley symapthisers are also doing just that with their crystal balls. If Ashley spends some money, if Ashley appoints a better manager, if Ashley does this and does that and so on. Time will tell. You're accusing people of using crystal balls then used them yourself, what's the difference?

More than one has suggested that they'd have him back.

I do think we have Kinnear because nobody else would take a job on knowing that they could be out of work and I say that as somebody who was responsible as I also stood up and applauded the protestors. Nobody knows if the club would have been put up for sale regardless but I’ve seen nothing to prove that it would have been. What came first? Was it the protests or the club going up for sale? The timeline suggests that the club was put on the market because of the protests.

I really don’t know where to start with this thread, it’s so one sided and lacking in reality that it’s laughable. 18 months or so and we’re rapidly going downhill, don’t make me laugh, today we’re 1 place lower in the league than when he bought the club. Honestly, some people need to take a few minutes to think before typing. People would want Shepherd back would they? Brilliant because 18 months after he became chairman and Keegan first walked we were 11 places lower in the league than when Keegan or Sir John left us but we gave Shepherd a chance to put it right. I know the 18 months for both cover different periods but the end of that time is brings the same result. We didn’t make banners calling for his head, we didn’t force anybody to put the club up for sale, and we allowed them a chance to get it right. Kinnear is here because we forced the owner to put the club up for sale and made the managers job one that nobody worth his salt would take on knowing that he’s probably be looking for another club if a sale went through. Don’t tell me we could spend our way out of trouble because we tried that with Souness and all we did was spend our way into it. We’re roughly 5,000 down on gates but season ticket sales were complete before Keegan left so the chances are that the 5,000 would have been gone no matter who was here. We had 47,000 when Keegan had his only home game of this season and we've had that sort of figure 6 times since that game. And as for appointing a manager to get us out of trouble, Allardyce would have been the same as he was anyway, he was given money to spend and he still failed because he bought some shite and even and couldn’t get the players to play for him. Do we have to change history and forget that Allardyce brought us Viduka who had a history of sick notes, Smith who couldn’t hit a cow’s arse with a barn door? Rozenhal was so light weight that he was forced out within months. Geremi, a player who Sir Bobby informed the club that at Chelsea he was said to have the legs of a 40 year old. Oh, and he also brought us Cacapa who seems to have older legs than Geremi’s. The last 18 months have been anything but good, nobody could argue otherwise. If anybody thinks that we could have been better off if things had stayed the same then based on what? All I’ve seen in this thread is an attempt to change history.

It's a pity Leeds had a clause in his contract which gave them 50% of the profit above the £5 million we paid to them for him.

He scored a brilliant goal yesterday when he almost ran the full length of the pitch before shooting. It's got to be said that it was against a defence and midfield which would make ours look world class.

We haven't sold Given or Geremi yet so the money is coming out of his pocket.

If Ashley isn't prepared to put his hand in his pocket, where's the £10 million mentioned coming from?

I would say he's a step up from Souness, Roeder and Allardyce.

They never talk to me about anything.

The kids say she has.

I found it harder while living away, especially if the locals had won.

I'd be very surprised if he was here at the end of the season if we go down. I think he's currently being judged on league position rather than points gained.

If we made the changes then I think he would, would we make the changes? I think if Kinnear fails, and he does look as if he will then they'll have to because I think they'll struggle with our current setup.

The last thing this club needs now is more protests.

Because he supported the club and regrets turning us down the first time, I don't think he'd do the same again but changes would need to be made and he wouldn't come cheap.

I think Bruce would come here although the current role of Wise might need redefining first.

People who signed up for the three year deal did so for whatever reason and if they did it because of Keegan being here then they had every right to do so as he signed a contract for that time span. They also have every right to feel pissed off about him not being here, the blame for him not being here is debatable.