Unbelievable

Oh dear, more crossed wires.. Wise said the system would work in such and such a way, Keegan said he was happy about it, then six months later Keegan is unhappy and the club come out and say the system now no longer works such and so and never has done, but it has always worked in quite a different way. From this turn of events, if you manage to conclude Keegan is the party doing the lying for having said he was happy with the system yet walking out six months later is ridiculous. As I´ve said before: there is a discrepancy between what he said then and what he said now because he was misled, like we all were. No crossed wires here at all. I presume you've made up your mind that KK is blameless in this and its all the clubs fault. Maybe it is, but maybe it isn't. I've said before I believe there is about a 50/50 split on this. When Wise and KK said what they said (haven't got the actual quotes, but got the general gist of both) maybe one of them wasn't telling the whole truth, maybe both.......or maybe both were actually telling the truth at that time. If the latter, and i'm more inclined to go along with that, then you have to ask what changed. Did the club decide to change the DOF's role in spite of KK, or because of KK? Of course Keegan isn't totally blameless, but from what we are seeing and from the different statements by the club and club representatives in Keegan´s tenure it´s clear to me that they have shifted the goal posts, and while that may have been acceptable to some other managers (not many mind you) everybody who knows Keegan knows he would have not accepted it. Which leaves me with only 3 options: 1) they didn't know or research KK before appointing him, in which case I would call that gross negligence and they deserve every ounce of shit they get for abusing a Toon legend 2) the did know this would happen, in which case I wonder what game they are playing at. They would have still abused KK's reputation for some ulteriour motive or 3) the change in structure wasn't planned from the offset but just kind of developped that way and it all came to burst on the last day of the transfer window. Whilst I think this is a very likely scenario, I would class this as a huge mistake in internal communication, and again the club deserves most of the blame. The way they are currently handling the aftermath of this isn't doing them any favours either. They come across as two-faces snakes contradicting themselves publicly in the space of a few months..

What did Milner say?

Oh dear, more crossed wires.. Wise said the system would work in such and such a way, Keegan said he was happy about it, then six months later Keegan is unhappy and the club come out and say the system now no longer works such and so and never has done, but it has always worked in quite a different way. From this turn of events, if you manage to conclude Keegan is the party doing the lying for having said he was happy with the system yet walking out six months later is ridiculous. As I´ve said before: there is a discrepancy between what he said then and what he said now because he was misled, like we all were.

Oh look you've completely ignored the main part of what I said, well done. I will humour you though by explaining why I posted what I posted. In that second article Keegan is quoted as saying that he knew about the DOF situation , that he knew it was Dennis Wise, that he apparently respected Wise and thought he would do a good job. These revelations - well to some of "us" anyway - should shatter the popular delusions that KK had no idea what he was getting himself into and must have been lied to from the start. The reason I point that out is that everyone is pointing to the discrepancies in what the board have said and totally ignoring the discrepancies in what Keegan's said. That way, delusion reigns. Are you going to comment on the actual point of my post or are you going to ignore it? If you are then don't be surprised if I respond to other people in future and not you. Jonny asked the same question of me but avoided the temptation to be a spaz about the way he did so, I should really have responded to him, sorry Jonny. I get the impression that a number of people who are heavily on the Keegan side of this argument have a lot of pent up anger and frustration which they need to vent and as pretty much no-one is as similarly biased on the side of the board they're sending it the way of anyone who's trying to remain somewhere in the middle. Well I can understand that it must be hard to keep things under control if you feel that passionately about Keegan, but it's pretty tedious to be continuously slagged off for holding an opinion that you don't actually hold. So from now on I'm not responding to anyone who does, so you may as well not bother as you'll be wasting your time. What discrepancies in what Keegan has said? As far as I can see there are no discrepancies, unless you mean discrepancies between with what Keegan said back then and what the board are coming out with now, which is exactly the reason for this outrage you fail to understand. As for the rest, fair enough, even though I think you are completely underestimating the perception of what Ahsley & Co have done in this last week if you believe there will be no serious repercussions. The discrepancies between when Keegan was saying that everything was fine and he was totally happy throughout the period up until this week and him now saying that his position was unmanageable, he was being undermined and that he hated it so much he had to quit. Who said anything about no repercussions? What I said was that the people who participate in those repercussions will be just as guilty of destroying the club as Ashley, Wise, Keegan or whoever else people want to blame for it. Indi, I'm sorry to keep banging on about this, but you seem to have some difficulty in understanding your own logic. You have now described the "discrepancy" in Keegan's stance in two different ways and they are both flawed for the following reasons: 1) "I was specifically addressing the idea that some people seem to have that Keegan knew nothing about there being any director of football (or whatever you want to call him) at the time when he became manager of the club" => as has been pointed out by other posters since, this must have been a minority as most people were aware of this. But more importantly, what has this got to do with Keegan himself and any discrepancy in what he has ever said? 2) "The discrepancies between when Keegan was saying that everything was fine and he was totally happy throughout the period up until this week and him now saying that his position was unmanageable, he was being undermined and that he hated it so much he had to quit." => Now, this is indeed a true discrepancy, but it goes to the very reason he has walked: he was misled into thinking he was going to have some influence in the recruitment process and in the end it turned out he didn't. There is a causal relationship between the discrepancies in both parties' stances, and considering that do you think it more likely that: - Keegan's growing unhappiness to work with the system in place made the board change the system towards him having no input in it at all OR - the board changed the system towards him having no input in it at all which caused Keegan's growing unhappiness to work with the system? Out of these two explanations, I know which one I find more realistic than the other. As for the no repercussions bit, you wrote a sort of rallying call for people to just let things be because they would be partly responsible for destroying the club, which is fair enough as it is your opinion. I was just pointing out that it seems not many people agree with you so it won't happen.

What you choose to ignore is that Keegan's story at the time was consistent with the rest of the club's story until very recently. It's only now, with the club's so-called "facts", that Keegan was supposed to report to some "Director of Football". That has been both the official version and Keegan's: Keegan has the final say on transfers. Wise's role is to recommend players. You're only the tenth person to point this out to Indi, but there's a good chance he has now grasped the flaw in his logic and we'll never hear him about this again as all he seems to be interested in now is pretending the last week never happened and threathening not to respond to my posts anymore.. [/NE5 vs Mick mode]

Oh look you've completely ignored the main part of what I said, well done. I will humour you though by explaining why I posted what I posted. In that second article Keegan is quoted as saying that he knew about the DOF situation , that he knew it was Dennis Wise, that he apparently respected Wise and thought he would do a good job. These revelations - well to some of "us" anyway - should shatter the popular delusions that KK had no idea what he was getting himself into and must have been lied to from the start. The reason I point that out is that everyone is pointing to the discrepancies in what the board have said and totally ignoring the discrepancies in what Keegan's said. That way, delusion reigns. Are you going to comment on the actual point of my post or are you going to ignore it? If you are then don't be surprised if I respond to other people in future and not you. Jonny asked the same question of me but avoided the temptation to be a spaz about the way he did so, I should really have responded to him, sorry Jonny. I get the impression that a number of people who are heavily on the Keegan side of this argument have a lot of pent up anger and frustration which they need to vent and as pretty much no-one is as similarly biased on the side of the board they're sending it the way of anyone who's trying to remain somewhere in the middle. Well I can understand that it must be hard to keep things under control if you feel that passionately about Keegan, but it's pretty tedious to be continuously slagged off for holding an opinion that you don't actually hold. So from now on I'm not responding to anyone who does, so you may as well not bother as you'll be wasting your time. What discrepancies in what Keegan has said? As far as I can see there are no discrepancies, unless you mean discrepancies between with what Keegan said back then and what the board are coming out with now, which is exactly the reason for this outrage you fail to understand. As for the rest, fair enough, even though I think you are completely underestimating the perception of what Ahsley & Co have done in this last week if you believe there will be no serious repercussions.

Don't. I was saying to Tooj the other night, how much I'm dreading the next bit of news we'll get. The least we could have hoped for was for us to be showing the signs of a promising future, maybe a nice little cup run, and playing football he and all of us could enjoy, but instead he has to see his beloved club be ripped asunder. Gulp, maybe he should give the Hull match a pass.. It's not going to be pretty..

I have always been 'wait and see', now I'm in the 'quickly disappearing' phase. Seems like masses of people have suddenly overtaken me though..

Indi, if you can't see that what Keegan said when Wise was appointed is in sharp contradiction to how the system has finally worked out by the club's own admission tonight you are beyond help: Keegan:

You really think that's the end of it..?

It doesn't really matter what they've said in interviews, it's what is in his contract that he's signed that will matter in court which is where this is likely to go. It doesn't really matter what it says in the contract or what will happen in court, it's what will happen when they get hounded out of Newcastle at the very first sighting which is where this is likely to go.

They've got another thing coming when Keegan will air his side of the story, especially if it strategically timed at a couple of hours before next Saturday's match.. Doubt if Keegan will stoop to the same levels as this bunch though.. Sorry, but if you think Keegan hasn't been having his say for months, then you're seriously deluded!! Where do you think the media have been getting all their inside info from!?! Who'd have thought naive old KK would have totally gotten the better of cynical hard-nosed businessman Mike Ashley in the manipulation stakes, f***ing hell man he's had us all fooled, the blokes a PR genius!! A media manipulator par excellence. I have no idea what you're trying to imply here That doesn't surprise me. I'm not implying anything I'm saying that Keegan, or someone on his behalf or with his interests at heart, has been talking to the media for months planting stories showing things from his point of view. That's not an implication its a direct accusation. I was one of the people who had been saying it was bollocks and the press were just making things up and s***-stirring because they didn't know what was going on, but seeing as it's now obvious that they knew exactly what was going on - or at least one side of it anyway - I've had to reassess my view, I was wrong. People have been talking about Keegan having signed a confidentiality agreement, but I'd expect that's a totally pointless exercise as his view will undoubtedly turn up in the papers anyhow. Well, maybe the fact that you were "one of the people who had been saying it was bollocks and the press were just making things up" should tell you aren't a very good judge of characters. A few people on here had been sceptical about Ashley and his middle management long before any of this came to light. Maybe some people in the press are also better judges of characters than you. You were wrong before in judging this whole affair by your own admission, so what makes you so convinced you've got it all figured out now..? Perhaps because I'm able to admit to getting things wrong and know that no-one gets everything right all the time, unlike the vast majority of people on here seemingly. Are you saying that you've never got anything wrong before, because if you have then you may as well answer you're own question. If you "haven't" then... ...well I'll know not to bother continuing with this conversation. As for the people who were questioning Ashley's middle management, it's not what they were doing, but why they were doing it that's important when deciding whether or not their judgement's any good or not. If they were doing it because they had thought about the situation and had analysed it and eventually come to the same conclusion that was being reported in the press then kudos to them, they're either a very powerful psychic or a club-insider. If they were simply swallowing everything they read in the press and then regurgitating it onto these pages then I would suggest that their judgement in general would be very poor and their judgement in this specific case would none existent as they had made no judgement, simply restated someone else's. As for my ability to judge character, well nah, I'm not actually going to go into that, my judgement of character is telling me that's not a very good idea. Again, you are showing yourself to be a poor judge of character; people like Tsunami, johnnypd and me have not jumped on the bandwagon last year when most people on here and in the press thought Ashley's shit smelled of roses. We have decided to judge the new owner and management on its actions and its results and we have often been slayed and riduculed for it by people who labelled us doom mongers. Since I'm not English I hardly even read the press; I don't need to press to form an opinion on something. I am perfectly happy to do that myself. No need to go all "That doesn't surprise me." on me.

That's putting it mildly..

They've got another thing coming when Keegan will air his side of the story, especially if it strategically timed at a couple of hours before next Saturday's match.. Doubt if Keegan will stoop to the same levels as this bunch though.. Sorry, but if you think Keegan hasn't been having his say for months, then you're seriously deluded!! Where do you think the media have been getting all their inside info from!?! Who'd have thought naive old KK would have totally gotten the better of cynical hard-nosed businessman Mike Ashley in the manipulation stakes, f***ing hell man he's had us all fooled, the blokes a PR genius!! A media manipulator par excellence. I have no idea what you're trying to imply here That doesn't surprise me. I'm not implying anything I'm saying that Keegan, or someone on his behalf or with his interests at heart, has been talking to the media for months planting stories showing things from his point of view. That's not an implication its a direct accusation. I was one of the people who had been saying it was bollocks and the press were just making things up and s***-stirring because they didn't know what was going on, but seeing as it's now obvious that they knew exactly what was going on - or at least one side of it anyway - I've had to reassess my view, I was wrong. People have been talking about Keegan having signed a confidentiality agreement, but I'd expect that's a totally pointless exercise as his view will undoubtedly turn up in the papers anyhow. Well, maybe the fact that you were "one of the people who had been saying it was bollocks and the press were just making things up" should tell you aren't a very good judge of characters. A few people on here had been sceptical about Ashley and his middle management long before any of this came to light. Maybe some people in the press are also better judges of characters than you. You were wrong before in judging this whole affair by your own admission, so what makes you so convinced you've got it all figured out now..?

This is what I am thinking. They are trying to pre-empt a story that will shed a dark light on them. It would account for the way their statement is worded, like it's put out hastily and in anger, without much thought gone into it.. They're at the panic stations by the look of it. So far for the stability we so desperately crave..

What bollocks, you can even see the times the articles were released on newsnow. Still, anything to make out poor king Kev is the victim. Question: Do you think their statement contradicts earlier claims by the club? They've said keegan didn't have a say on transfers but were clearly prepared to let him have his say. Can't see the problem with that. I think you will find you have that completely the wrong way around..

That's bull Indi, and goes against the rumours that it was Wise doing the leaking for one. Unless of course you can prove KK was doing the leaking rather than suggesting it to suit your own views of this whole mess which is trying to put it on KK's toes from how I'm reading it. aren't you doing exactly the same from the keegan side. bearing in mind most of the leaks showed the board in a bad light. What leaks are we talking about here?

They've got another thing coming when Keegan will air his side of the story, especially if it strategically timed at a couple of hours before next Saturday's match.. Doubt if Keegan will stoop to the same levels as this bunch though.. Sorry, but if you think Keegan hasn't been having his say for months, then you're seriously deluded!! Where do you think the media have been getting all their inside info from!?! Who'd have thought naive old KK would have totally gotten the better of cynical hard-nosed businessman Mike Ashley in the manipulation stakes, f***ing hell man he's had us all fooled, the blokes a PR genius!! A media manipulator par excellence. I have no idea what you're trying to imply here

"Derek Llambias is a long-term acquaintance of Mike Ashley and supports West Ham."

I'm starting to think you're actually Dennis Wise. Same here... How anybody can try to defend a statement or structure like this for a Premiership football club is beyond me. And that's coming from somebody who is actually in favour of a DoF structure, but if there is meant to be no input at all of the manager into the recruitment process how the hell is the manager supposed to achieve the goals set to him and be accountable if they fail? Keegan did have a say though, Guthrie was his signing and the likes of Bassong and Zayette either stayed or went on the opinion of what Keegan thought of them while on trial. And you know this how? Because keegan said on both Bassong and Zayette that he would be speaking to Wise to let him know what he thinks of them, he also talks how he's been monitoring Guthrie since Bolton played Man Utd and that was where he caught his eye. Unless it's all bollocks like and KK had to say that or he'd be locked back under the stairs. Well, that's seriously what it looks like mate. Officially he wasn't even allowed to speak about these things at all, so imagine what would have happened if he had gone against the corporate line.. He was forced into a position where he needed to play fair weather or shut up. The only amazing thing is Keegan lasted as long as he did with these retards in charge..

Magoric actually knew about this a couple of hours ago, didn't he?

They've got another thing coming when Keegan will air his side of the story, especially if it strategically timed at a couple of hours before next Saturday's match.. Doubt if Keegan will stoop to the same levels as this bunch though..

I'm starting to think you're actually Dennis Wise. Same here... How anybody can try to defend a statement or structure like this for a Premiership football club is beyond me. And that's coming from somebody who is actually in favour of a DoF structure, but if there is meant to be no input at all of the manager into the recruitment process how the hell is the manager supposed to achieve the goals set to him and be accountable if they fail? Keegan did have a say though, Guthrie was his signing and the likes of Bassong and Zayette either stayed or went on the opinion of what Keegan thought of them while on trial. And you know this how?

I'm starting to think you're actually Dennis Wise. Same here... How anybody can try to defend a statement or structure like this for a Premiership football club is beyond me. And that's coming from somebody who is actually in favour of a DoF structure, but if there is meant to be no input at all of the manager into the recruitment process how the hell is the manager supposed to achieve the goals set to him and be accountable if they fail?