Parky

This is the latest poll btw: Is Glenn Roeder capable of managing Newcastle United? Votes Response: 203 19% YES 886 81% NO

Spot on Sir! blueyes.gif

Glenn Roeder didn't do that bad? 1992-93 Gillingham, 2nd bottom of the football league. 1993-94 Watford, finished 6th bottom of the second division or whatever it was called. 1994-95 Watford, finished 7th in the old second. 1995-96 Watford, finished 2nd bottom of the old 2nd and relegated, he was sacked. 2001-02 West Ham, took over from Redknap and finished 7th. 2002-03 West Ham, finished 3rd bottom and relegated, quite funny that he thought that Don Hutchison was worth £5 million. 2003-04 West Ham, sacked. Good job we didn't appoint somebody with a poor record. a) Gillingham fans didn't want him sacked. That must tell you something? Maybe that they expected to get relegated and he did well to save them? Or they thought he was taking the club itself in the best direction he could? b) In 2 seasons he took a rubbish Watford to just outside the playoffs (in the equivalent to the championship) from a recent history of not getting near them. c) he didn't relegate Watford. He was sacked in the February when they were near the bottom. Graham Taylor had 3 months or so to help and he couldn't stop them being relegated. But yeah, it was all Roeders fault. d) he took West Ham from 15th to 7th (in the Premiership!). He made some good signings (David James for 2 mil, Englands goalkeeper) at times, got hit by bad injuries and had a brain tumor, he didn't do that great though to be fair. Although in his defence, they're now pretty much relegated from the Premier league by 2 different managers, with players like Tevez in the team, etc. e) he took NUFC from 15th place with a devestated team and morale, plus injuries to a respectable 7th and into Europe. I'm not saying he's a great manager but a failure? Not really. What you seem to forget is that facts like you've posted are meaningless unless you have an accurate view on the ability of those clubs, their recent history and what the fans expected. I have to agree Koven.......What pedigree Roder has.. mackems.gif How much is he paying you btw? ^-^

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The amount of things GR has proferred into the media in the last 2 weeks is ridiculous bordering on pathalogical...I personally believe none of it....

Is that you Parky?

He's Turkish I take it or am I thinking of another player?

Rodent signing rats who would have thought. mackems.gif

The rat is goodish player.

Glenn Roeder didn't do that bad? 1992-93 Gillingham, 2nd bottom of the football league. 1993-94 Watford, finished 6th bottom of the second division or whatever it was called. 1994-95 Watford, finished 7th in the old second. 1995-96 Watford, finished 2nd bottom of the old 2nd and relegated, he was sacked. 2001-02 West Ham, took over from Redknap and finished 7th. 2002-03 West Ham, finished 3rd bottom and relegated, quite funny that he thought that Don Hutchison was worth £5 million. 2003-04 West Ham, sacked. Good job we didn't appoint somebody with a poor record. That has to be the worst record of any manager in PL history.

the glazers Although partly using their funds, the Glazers have borrowed against the clubs assets and future earnings to buy the club....Basically this kind of thing should be illegal. Consequently ManU are between £500m-£700m in debt depending on who you beleive.

We did try for Babel in Jan. His agent put him off.

the glazers You couldn't be more wrong actually.

Who in their right mind would buy shares in a football club anyway?

You know as well as I do Vic that the CL is fast developing into a monopoly of the few devoid of any real competition, with a group stage to eliminate any shock results...As you are also aware of the power now being wielded by G14 (even Mourinho has been on about that especially the seedings and the last minute referee changes) and tbf he has no worries about qualifying does he. When they do finally show their true colours and we have a breakaway Euro Superleague......Think what will happen to your precious SKY money then....It will happen, it's the next logical step of GREED.

the only people sellign shares were the Halls anyway ?? whay was the dividned necessary, apart from to prop up the failing Cameron HAll business ? Dividends without operating profits is unheard of actually......

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged. Lyon havent dominated in France because of CL revenue. Its because of the scouting and youth development systems set up by the likes of Santini and Le Guen. Theyve dominated in France because of the players theyve developed - Diarra, Essien, Juninho, Malouda, Govou, etc. Of course, as a result of doing well, theyve managed to secure their position at the top by signing good players, but theyre obviously a well run club and thats the biggest factor behind them being a major force in Europe now. And likewise, where are for example Monaco, or PSG? Clubs that used to regularly be in the CL, and sometimes still are - why did a mid table club like Lyon managed to completely eclipse them when by your logic, there was no hope for them due to the gap in finances? Hence, why ive mentioned the clubs in Spain. Barca, Madrid, Deportivo and Valencia were the regular 4 teams in the CL a while ago, all 4 were going far in domestic and European competitions, yet in recent years weve had Villarreal and Sevilla come out of nowhere, without spending large amounts of money, and have knocked a few clubs off their seats at the top. Where is the gap that you talk about, because its not like CL revenue is any different for Spanish clubs? Someone from the top 4 will always have a slippery season imo, and its up to the clubs below them to take advantage. If noone does, its not entirely down to the disparity in income from CL revenue as well as the inability to attract players. Again, those are factors, but imo the biggest ones are poor planning, poor managers, and poor decision making in the transfer market. Are the likes of Glenn Roeder, Stuart Pearce and David Moyes really good enough to build sides that will challenge consistently for a top 4 spot? I dont think so, and thats first and foremost why their clubs wont be getting anywhere near challenging the "big 4", not because of some financial gap. In reality, those outside the top 4 need to raise their standards. Scouting, youth development, coaching, training/fitness, personnel and staff - those are what can be improved upon. I just dont see the sense in ignoring all of these factors and blaming others for being more successful, when it seems like these clubs hardly excel in these categories - we're unable to string a few passes together in many games for example, thats nowt down to the gap between us and the big 4, but rather poor coaching as well as poor decision making in the transfer market resulting in having to field vastly inferior players. First let me say good post. I too have been mulling these variables and core structure development (scouting/training/management) clearly have a competitive effect and I agree with that. But it seems to me these days that odd club that looks like it will break through ie Spurs is again set back by pressure being put on its best players bu the financial clout of the top4. Witness the exit of Carrick arguably their best player next to King....And various rumours that Arsenal and Chelsea fancy King (can't remember if he's signed a new deal). It is clear clubs like Chelsea have a naked strategy now of buying up the best players even if they aren't going to be used or just to keep them away from other sides...SWP, Mikel, Essien... How long will we be able to keep Owen without a top 4 finish? Or for that matter Martins? The bottom line is that I want the CL again to be a real competition and not a gravy train....Because I can see now and it will be clearer in 4/5 years that this gravy train is destroying domestic competition. 3 foreign players Players have to stay at clubs that developed them till they are 23 CL back to a knockout competitioon did I not say that 10 posts earlier? clubs that developed players are already protected, extending that to 23 is an absolute joke, once again not recognising why players leave clubs limiting nationalities is not only illegal, it is completely daft. All it will mean is that no English club will ever reach the last 4 of the CL leave this thread here Parky, it's a total joke man Vic's football knowledge... You seem to have overlooked we dominated the European Cup for a decade without foreign players... Football has turned a wrong corner and it needs fixing. I don't give a fuck about EU employement law...What are they going to do shut down football?

I'm not sure where I stand on then using the dividends to buy more shares.....Not even sure if that is strictly legal or good practice at the very least. In one way value is given back to the share price, in another way FS and the Halls are buying up the club using the clubs money....As I say I'm not really sure if the club is winning or losing on this slight of hand.

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged. Lyon havent dominated in France because of CL revenue. Its because of the scouting and youth development systems set up by the likes of Santini and Le Guen. Theyve dominated in France because of the players theyve developed - Diarra, Essien, Juninho, Malouda, Govou, etc. Of course, as a result of doing well, theyve managed to secure their position at the top by signing good players, but theyre obviously a well run club and thats the biggest factor behind them being a major force in Europe now. And likewise, where are for example Monaco, or PSG? Clubs that used to regularly be in the CL, and sometimes still are - why did a mid table club like Lyon managed to completely eclipse them when by your logic, there was no hope for them due to the gap in finances? Hence, why ive mentioned the clubs in Spain. Barca, Madrid, Deportivo and Valencia were the regular 4 teams in the CL a while ago, all 4 were going far in domestic and European competitions, yet in recent years weve had Villarreal and Sevilla come out of nowhere, without spending large amounts of money, and have knocked a few clubs off their seats at the top. Where is the gap that you talk about, because its not like CL revenue is any different for Spanish clubs? Someone from the top 4 will always have a slippery season imo, and its up to the clubs below them to take advantage. If noone does, its not entirely down to the disparity in income from CL revenue as well as the inability to attract players. Again, those are factors, but imo the biggest ones are poor planning, poor managers, and poor decision making in the transfer market. Are the likes of Glenn Roeder, Stuart Pearce and David Moyes really good enough to build sides that will challenge consistently for a top 4 spot? I dont think so, and thats first and foremost why their clubs wont be getting anywhere near challenging the "big 4", not because of some financial gap. In reality, those outside the top 4 need to raise their standards. Scouting, youth development, coaching, training/fitness, personnel and staff - those are what can be improved upon. I just dont see the sense in ignoring all of these factors and blaming others for being more successful, when it seems like these clubs hardly excel in these categories - we're unable to string a few passes together in many games for example, thats nowt down to the gap between us and the big 4, but rather poor coaching as well as poor decision making in the transfer market resulting in having to field vastly inferior players. First let me say good post. I too have been mulling these variables and core structure development (scouting/training/management) clearly have a competitive effect and I agree with that. But it seems to me these days that odd club that looks like it will break through ie Spurs is again set back by pressure being put on its best players bu the financial clout of the top4. Witness the exit of Carrick arguably their best player next to King....And various rumours that Arsenal and Chelsea fancy King (can't remember if he's signed a new deal). It is clear clubs like Chelsea have a naked strategy now of buying up the best players even if they aren't going to be used or just to keep them away from other sides...SWP, Mikel, Essien... How long will we be able to keep Owen without a top 4 finish? Or for that matter Martins? The bottom line is that I want the CL again to be a real competition and not a gravy train....Because I can see now and it will be clearer in 4/5 years that this gravy train is destroying domestic competition. 3 foreign players Players have to stay at clubs that developed them till they are 23 CL back to a knockout competitioon

Great post that. Lots of blame going on here when the simple fact is, due to poor management we have been poor. It's a loser's mentality and one which engulfs this football club. It's not about the odd team qualifying once every 3/4 years it's about rollover qualification. you do remember that we have been rollover qualifiers before? Why did that fact not ensure we stayed on the gravy train if you posit what you do in this post? The CL needs to dump the group stage and make itself a real competition again, where there will be nights when 'smaller clubs' will knock out bigger clubs as used to happen. What we have now is a competition where this is virtually impossible, the group stage and the devious seeding ensures the fat cat clubs always make it to the last 8. I can only think of Porto in recent history upsetting the apple cart.

Great post that. Lots of blame going on here when the simple fact is, due to poor management we have been poor. It's a loser's mentality and one which engulfs this football club. It's not about the odd team qualifying once every 3/4 years it's about rollover qualification.

...see Emre

....I could say look at Lyon a mid-table nothiing side only a few years ago (then 2/3 rollover seasons in the CL)...Now with a total stranglehold primarily down to CL money. The CL and especially the doing away with the knock out stage has destroyed the romanticism and a lot of the nail biting attractiveness...Are you seriously saying middle sized clubs like Forest or Derby (look now at Spurs or Bolton) could ever compete again for the top prize. It is nothing more now than a manufactured competition which has all but eliminated chance so the fat cats can continue feeding unchallenged.

I was quoting the stats.....Not full blown hyperbole as you seem partial to.

Since 2001 bar us twice and Everton once no other team other than the 'the big 4' have qualifyied for the CL. Good point. And the sad thing is that when Everton qualified, Liverpool still got in as well. The only way out of this is limiting to 3 foreign players and getting rid of the group stage - which is only there as insurance that one of the top clubs doesn't get upset.