Parky

Good looking boy. ^-^

I think he's being too polite....More to the point FS is incompetant as a chairman. I don't want to list his failings yet again, as you well know they are legion.

But not so good with words? From the 2005 accounts - The club have roughly 300 full time employees, and roughly 1000 part-time staff. The wages and salaries for all of those comes to £44.5m. On top of that the club paid £5.2m in Social security costs, and then a further £0.4k in other pension costs. This came to the total for that year of £50.2m. The total for 2006 was £56.6m but I don't have the breakdown at hand. (Anyone any idea wher I've put it :-[ ) Lets play numbers ... The 1000 part-time wiill be match-day people. So for 25 home games, at £50 (?) a game woudl be £1.2m. If we say that the footbalnlers and the management total 35 bodies, then that leaves about 270 other full-time staff to run the business. Lets say they have the average UK wage of £20k per year. That would cost ~ £5.4m to finance. This leaves the 35 "football" employees to share the rest. This means 44.5 - 1.2 - 5.4 = £37.8m Looks like just over £1m per year for each of them. Of course there will be extremes, at both ends, but on average the figure looks like £1m to me. ++++++++++ Deloittes who look in to these things, say that football clubs should run themsleves with the target of payroll costs (in total, so the £50.2m not the £44.5m) ideally be no more than 50% of income. Up to 2003 the club extolled the fact that they were one of only two sides who met this criterion. Then they just lost the plot. The graph below shows the rise of the wages:income ratio, as well as the general rise in wages. http://www.nufc-finances.org.uk/payrol5.gif Now whichever way we try and cut it up, and try and work individual player amounts, the trend is steeply upwards. The issue is two-fold. The wages are rising, so 76% up in 4 years. This is ridiculous. The other issue is that our income has only gone up 17% in the same time. Someone at the club has just not been in control of things. High wages on falling income is why the club has been losing over £1m per month for the last reported 18 months. The hope has to be that the new CEO will bring in sound financial knowledge that has clearly been missing for the last few years. Luckily the Sky money leaps next year. The sad thing is that that money has aleady been spent. The extra income will only take us to the point we should be at. For other clubs the money will be a bonus, for us is it is a life-raft. About feking time Macca boy!

Where the fuck is Macbeth on this thread??!!

Good thinking. blueyes.gif

Ok then. Look at most of the players in that 28 (Here's some just for example - Bramble, Taylor, Huntington, Pattison, Bernard, Harper, Milner, Carr, Babayaro, Ameobi, Sibierski, Edgar). Would you pay them £35k a week? No, and I doubt we do for a lot of that list, which just goes to show how much we ARE overpaying a good chunk of the squad. With your ridiculous argument you've actually provided further evidence that we are paying way over the odds on wages to certain members of the squad. There are maybe 10 or 11 players in the squad that I could reasonably put on £35k+. That the average for the full 28 is £35k tells me something is not right. Anyway, divide the wage bill by whatever number you like. It's still too high as a percentage of turnover. Then use your brain and imagine what the average would be if we stopped paying players over the odds - because whether you like it or not, we ARE paying players over the odds, as you've proven with your little exercise above. Reducing the cost base is key whether the current average wage is £35k or not. Did you decide to stop reading there? lol If you would read just the next line I explained how each player is not on £35k a week average. That was an oversimplification. Those players would be on £35k a week if they were the only people employed at the club. Does Harper work in the club shop when Given plays? We have something like 800 employees not 28. Take off the wages of everyone else and that £35 a week is obviously going to drop. And do I think those players deserve to be on even £20k a week? Of course not, but what i'm trying to point out is that it isn't unusual and it isn't detrimental to the clubs financial health, yet. All players get overpaid in the premier league. Some people have said that Spurs are doing the right thing. Well they pay £42 million in wages, have only 300 employees and make less money than us. Now who overpays? I don't know why people think that players wander into a board room and demand £60k a week and get it. The figures don't bear that out. But not so good with words? Wait a minute daft lad. Are you dividing our total wage bill by 28 or the players' wage bill by 28. You see because when you said "That's excluding wages to the board, management, coaches, stewards, shop workers, cleaners and everyone else employed by the club" I foolishly assumed that you meant what you said. Now you're telling me that you just divided the entire wage bill by 28. Which was a little bit silly, wasn't it? Not as silly as me for assuming that the word "excluding" meant "not including" though, it seems. Tell me again who's not very good with words. If you divide are entire wage bill by the 28 or so full time squad players it comes out at about £35k each a week. It wasn't so unclear was it? I divided the entire wage bill by the 28 players, commented that it was £35k per week and then added that I hadn't included all the other wage earners in that calculation. If I meant the players wage bill why would I mention the board, management team and shop workers? And the players wage bill? Where can I access that then? Unless you work in the finance department of the club there is no way you could have access to it, if it even exists. So why would I use it in an argument? Maybe you should read more carefully or ask for an explantion rather than calling people daft. And why was it silly, I tried to keep the calculations simple. Sadly, not simple enough it seems Employee figures: Ticker: NCU Exchanges: LON 2006 Sales: 90,639,348 Currency: Pounds Sterling Fiscal Year Ends: June Share Type: Ordinary Country: United Kingdom Major Industry: Recreation Sub Industry: Miscellaneous Recreation Employees: 789 Market Capitalization: 83,857,410 Total Shares Outstanding: 133,107,000 Closely Held Shares: 87,302,383 But you did include those people's wages in your calculation. And then said that you had excluded them, when what you meant was you'd not included them in your divisor. You explained yourself appallingly and your argument remains poor. The more you explain your logic, the less it makes sense. By the way, I reckon the 800 figure actually does include matchday catering etc - i.e. people that are beyond part-time. The football club is the playing staff, the coaching staff, the board, and the administrative staff. Probably a few hundred employees. You can stick your fingers in your ears and claim that we aren't overpaying players all you like btw, but it is common knowledge in football that we offer big money wages to players, paying over the top to secure signings. It needs to stop. No-one else seemed to have a problem with it. I reckon the 800 does include match day catering as well, but then so does Spurs' figures so what's your point? I wasn't suggesting that if I included the stewards and managers pay it would bring the average wage of a player down to £3k a week. But there is no way I can find out what other employees earn so I couldn't work it out any futher. I'm sure you can see this. All I could do is show how much each player would earn if they were the only employees at the club. Then explain that in doing so I hadn't taken into account all the other employees which would reduce the average further. I apologise if it wasn't clear; I'll be sure to simplify more in the future. Is Harry Kewell better than Totti? He gets paid more than him according to the Independent. You don't think the fact that over half of the highest paid players in the world play in England means anything? Or that nearly half of the richest clubs in the world are English? Players get paid more in England. And once again, I haven't said Dyer isn't overpaid, just that the entire wage bill isn't anything to be worried about. The fact that Totti loves the club probably means he gets paid under market value anyway. I expected people to know that our stewards don't get £30k a week. The point was that if you add up all other wage costs, including the manager, financial advisors, coaches, etc, etc, it will reduce that £35k further. As will taking off Owen's, Dyers (the well paid) wages that skew the average. All i'm saying is the average player isn't overpaid when compared with other, similar clubs, and will be paid less than £30k. I can't possibly know for certain. And I know you didn't argue it but that point also applies to Spurs, if you take their minimum wage earners from their employee wage bill then their average wage will be high. Apologies about the personal stuff. I take your point PL players are overpaid in comparison to the Eurropean leagues. I'm also releived you admit Dyer and Newcastle are generally overpaid/overpaying even by PL standards. Good.

Dyer is on 70k and Totti argualbly the best player Italy has produced in recent history is on €115,000 about £78k. Beleive what you like this is what these two players currently earn. FACT. FOI Totti did take a wage cut as Roma have been in financial trouble and he does actually LOVE THE CLUB. Bourne out by the fact he has turned down many lucrative transfers over the last few years with 50% wage increases attached.

I think he might be including match day stewards and the gurning mongs that work in the pie shop for 2 hours on a Saturday. They're sure to be putting a serious dent in that £50m a year wage bill.

We need to explain the business differeance between fixed costs and manageable variable costs (player wages). How is Dyer earning as much as Totti??? I await your ans should be good.

Ok then. Look at most of the players in that 28 (Here's some just for example - Bramble, Taylor, Huntington, Pattison, Bernard, Harper, Milner, Carr, Babayaro, Ameobi, Sibierski, Edgar). Would you pay them £35k a week? No, and I doubt we do for a lot of that list, which just goes to show how much we ARE overpaying a good chunk of the squad. With your ridiculous argument you've actually provided further evidence that we are paying way over the odds on wages to certain members of the squad. There are maybe 10 or 11 players in the squad that I could reasonably put on £35k+. That the average for the full 28 is £35k tells me something is not right. Anyway, divide the wage bill by whatever number you like. It's still too high as a percentage of turnover. Then use your brain and imagine what the average would be if we stopped paying players over the odds - because whether you like it or not, we ARE paying players over the odds, as you've proven with your little exercise above. Reducing the cost base is key whether the current average wage is £35k or not. Did you decide to stop reading there? lol If you would read just the next line I explained how each player is not on £35k a week average. That was an oversimplification. Those players would be on £35k a week if they were the only people employed at the club. Does Harper work in the club shop when Given plays? We have something like 800 employees not 28. Take off the wages of everyone else and that £35 a week is obviously going to drop. And do I think those players deserve to be on even £20k a week? Of course not, but what i'm trying to point out is that it isn't unusual and it isn't detrimental to the clubs financial health, yet. All players get overpaid in the premier league. Some people have said that Spurs are doing the right thing. Well they pay £42 million in wages, have only 300 employees and make less money than us. Now who overpays? I don't know why people think that players wander into a board room and demand £60k a week and get it. The figures don't bear that out. But not so good with words? Everton's wages were £37.0m according to their accounts....Can you explain how ours are so ridiculously high?

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic. I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential! Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though. Figures from the papers, I got to see the Man U players wages through work, wouldn't be right to disclose details. You tease. I'll accept a PM. Put it this way, they can afford to go large at McDonalds once in a while.

I've heard KD is a changed man.

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic. I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential! Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though. Figures from the papers, I got to see the Man U players wages through work, wouldn't be right to disclose details. You tease. I'll accept a PM.

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic. I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential! Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though. Figures from the papers, I got to see the Man U players wages through work, wouldn't be right to disclose details. You tease.

I can also tell you as a fact that the ManU wages were no where near that high as a basic. I could also tell you how much Giggs etc were on the seaosn they signed Rooney, but that would be confidential! Ballack's on £121,000 a week and Schev is on £130,000....Terry is negotiating for £130,000 which would make him the highest paid English player in the league above Gerrard reported to be on £95,000 and ickle Mickey on £105,000. Fat Lamps is reportedly on £121,000 only recently as he wanted parity with Ballack. Ferdinand was the highest paid def (soon to be Terry) no idea what he's on though.

Chelsea's wage bill in 03/04 was £115m...The highest in world football and double ours. Although with a turnover of £144m for that year. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/4071136.stm In 03/04 ManU paid £77m in wages with a turnover of £178m, the highest turnover in world football in one year.

You're right Martin...Forgot about King (45k). Then Keane 40k. I mean if you compare Huddlestone's wages to say Taylor....YOu can see why our wages are seen as a bit out of control.

I know those numbers look low, but remember we've got used to our crazy numbers as if it were the norm. so basically you want us to win the Premiership using the Spurs wage structure as a model. The same Spurs who just had their record-breaking 5th place finish despite signing 52million players? Not at all I don't give a fuck what we pay.........As long as we're paying for true quality. ^-^

I know those numbers look low, but remember we've got used to our crazy numbers as if it were the norm.

For sure, Spurs wouldn't put up with any crazy wages nonsense. You think Jenas took a pay cut then? Spurs have a very strict wage structure and I believe King is the only player earning over £35k a week. Seems a little low that. Would have thought Keane, Berbatov and Defoe would be on around 50+K. Remember Defoe moaning about his wages a couple of years ago. Berbatov is on 35K? I doubt it. Where MJ when you need him? If I'm not mistaken Spurs got a bonus system, so Berbatov could have a basic wage of 35k, but then he'll receive shit loads of money in different bonuses which makes his actual wage a lot higher. Or am I completely mistaken? Keane is deffo the highest paid and his basic is 40k.

For sure, Spurs wouldn't put up with any crazy wages nonsense. You think Jenas took a pay cut then? Spurs have a very strict wage structure and I believe King is the only player earning over £35k a week. Seems a little low that. Would have thought Keane, Berbatov and Defoe would be on around 50+K. Remember Defoe moaning about his wages a couple of years ago. Berbatov is on 35K? I doubt it. Keane is the highest paid on 40k.....Carrick was offerred 35k when he left....

For sure, Spurs wouldn't put up with any crazy wages nonsense. You think Jenas took a pay cut then? Spurs have a very strict wage structure and I believe King is the only player earning over £35k a week. Seems a little low that. Would have thought Keane, Berbatov and Defoe would be on around 50+K. Remember Defoe moaning about his wages a couple of years ago.

I'm genuinely hurt. You'd better be taking the piss He's picked this behaviour up off GM. got in with a bad crowd tbh Vic, Chez, you've really hurt me. I think that confirms you're still the master at 'this behaviour'. ^-^

For sure, Spurs wouldn't put up with any crazy wages nonsense. You think Jenas took a pay cut then? Absolutely certain.

Wenger doesn't find them, most were found by Damien Comolli who was his chief European scout. I don't think there are many of us who seriously pictured Wenger popping off to Belgium to take in an under 18 match on his days off, like. The way some talk on here I wouldn't be so sure. Well at least the Chariman isn't the main talent spotter.