brummie

No, as i said above, that is not what he is saying at all. Of course opinion gets involved. It almost always does in legal cases. It is an opinion formed after seeing all the evidence, listening to questioning, and applying the law as exists. That's how juries work, too. That is how the legal system works. There is a massive difference between a few people discussing a legal case on a football forum, and a court of law with a judge and jury. A high court judge, a jury, having sat through the trial, having seen all the evidence, decided that Evans was guilty "beyond all reasonable doubt". As did the second judge who rejected the appeal. His comments also don't suggest it has "all come down to his personal opinion", either. He was found guilty by a jury. The judge expressing his opinion - that he agrees with the jury - and mentioning the CCTV do not in anyway suggest that he was the one to decide (he wasn't) or that it was on the basis of just the cctv coverage (it wasn't).

Personally I think this is mental, especially in cases where we know there's a massive grey area. There isn't a massive grey area, though, that is the point. Any lack of clarity in this is caused mostly by Evans's actions and those of his bankrollers since he came out of prison. That's precisely what I meant when I referred to the way he has acted. Evans was found guilty of rape by a jury. By law, a conviction has to be "beyond all reasonable doubt". Any grey area added to that exists purely because of Evans and his team. It is a grey area though as rape, in this way, isn't exactly a single identifiable action. It's not like being caught on CCTV walking into ASDA and walking out with a TV. There's a lot more to it than that. I'm not saying he's innocent, I'm just uneasy about saying he's 100% guilty because that's the verdict that was given. The important point is that - by the definition of rape enshrined in the law - what Evans committed was rape. If people want to suspect he might not be guilty - and one assumes these people have read all the court proceedings and know all the details about the case in order to be able to make that decision - then that is up to him, but to suggest there is some sort of grey area around his conviction is blatantly not true. Thinking that something (ie what Evans did) isn't as bad as the law sees it is one thing, but to suggest there's any legal lack of clarity is fundamentally untrue. Really? What on earth do you mean by that? He's a judge sitting in a court of law, expressing how he saw Evans' actions in the frame of what the law is. That's his job. The jury were expressing their interpretation of how what Evans did should be interpreted. That's why Evans was found guilty. if you are going to cast doubt on the outcome of a trial because it involves a judge's "interpretation" of the law, then you're going to find yourself at odds with the entire legal framework which lies at the root of modern democracy. he's not interpreting the law there, he's interpreting CCTV footage and deciding that someone stumbling cannot legally consent to sex when i believe expert testimony said otherwise He is saying he believes she was too intoxicated, and that the cctv footage shows how intoxicated she was. That's not the same as saying "I think she was intoxicated because she looks pissed on the cctv footage". He is an experienced judge making his comments in the closing of the trial having heard all the evidence and cross examinations. The second judge who considered the request for an appeal agreed with him. The jury, having been guided as to the law, agreed with him. You're suggestion that you "believe" an expert suggested otherwise and that it is just the judge's opinion. And that is exactly what I mean by pointing out that the grey area people talk about here doesn't exist legally, it is just people throwing suggestions around, rather than anything based on actual fact. And therein lies the problem with some of the reaction to this case. While all this is going on, his victim is finding herself persecuted, forced to keep changing address, and having her identity revealed online. How fucking depressing. You'd think she was the one in the wrong.

Personally I think this is mental, especially in cases where we know there's a massive grey area. There isn't a massive grey area, though, that is the point. Any lack of clarity in this is caused mostly by Evans's actions and those of his bankrollers since he came out of prison. That's precisely what I meant when I referred to the way he has acted. Evans was found guilty of rape by a jury. By law, a conviction has to be "beyond all reasonable doubt". Any grey area added to that exists purely because of Evans and his team. It is a grey area though as rape, in this way, isn't exactly a single identifiable action. It's not like being caught on CCTV walking into ASDA and walking out with a TV. There's a lot more to it than that. I'm not saying he's innocent, I'm just uneasy about saying he's 100% guilty because that's the verdict that was given. The important point is that - by the definition of rape enshrined in the law - what Evans committed was rape. If people want to suspect he might not be guilty - and one assumes these people have read all the court proceedings and know all the details about the case in order to be able to make that decision - then that is up to him, but to suggest there is some sort of grey area around his conviction is blatantly not true. Thinking that something (ie what Evans did) isn't as bad as the law sees it is one thing, but to suggest there's any legal lack of clarity is fundamentally untrue. Really? What on earth do you mean by that? He's a judge sitting in a court of law, expressing how he saw Evans' actions in the frame of what the law is. That's his job. The jury were expressing their interpretation of how what Evans did should be interpreted. That's why Evans was found guilty. if you are going to cast doubt on the outcome of a trial because it involves a judge's "interpretation" of the law, then you're going to find yourself at odds with the entire legal framework which lies at the root of modern democracy.

I think there are two arguments here. Of course some rapes are "worse" than others, but it wasn't that that caused the ruckus when whoever it was (I can't remember) (remembered - Judy Finnigan). It was the implication that that meant that there was some forms of rape which "aren't really too bad". That's the dodgy ground. Rape is a hideous crime, whichever format it takes. In that sense, rape is rape, the media are correct on that.

Personally I think this is mental, especially in cases where we know there's a massive grey area. There isn't a massive grey area, though, that is the point. Any lack of clarity in this is caused mostly by Evans's actions and those of his bankrollers since he came out of prison. That's precisely what I meant when I referred to the way he has acted. Evans was found guilty of rape by a jury. By law, a conviction has to be "beyond all reasonable doubt". Any grey area added to that exists purely because of Evans and his team. It is a grey area though as rape, in this way, isn't exactly a single identifiable action. It's not like being caught on CCTV walking into ASDA and walking out with a TV. There's a lot more to it than that. I'm not saying he's innocent, I'm just uneasy about saying he's 100% guilty because that's the verdict that was given. The important point is that - by the definition of rape enshrined in the law - what Evans committed was rape. If people want to suspect he might not be guilty - and one assumes these people have read all the court proceedings and know all the details about the case in order to be able to make that decision - then that is up to him, but to suggest there is some sort of grey area around his conviction is blatantly not true. Thinking that something (ie what Evans did) isn't as bad as the law sees it is one thing, but to suggest there's any legal lack of clarity is fundamentally untrue.

He's not even toilet. He's a rusting shit bolt at the bottom of a toilet pan.

Personally I think this is mental, especially in cases where we know there's a massive grey area. There isn't a massive grey area, though, that is the point. Any lack of clarity in this is caused mostly by Evans's actions and those of his bankrollers since he came out of prison. That's precisely what I meant when I referred to the way he has acted. Evans was found guilty of rape by a jury. By law, a conviction has to be "beyond all reasonable doubt". Any grey area added to that exists purely because of Evans and his team.

It hasn't finished yet, no. Although I'm not really sure what difference it makes, given that we don't know what it'll say.

But that's the important point. He's a convicted rapist. End of. Until evidence surfaces to change that, he is going to remain one. It is retinue's refusal to stop acting like this is not true which has made the situation worse. That is why he is struggling to get back into football, because people don't really want to be associating with the likes of Ched Evans. How can a football club do things like community activism, do good work outside the actual football (and a lot of them do) if people can point at them and say "look at the sort of person you employ"?

I find it hard to see it as persecution - the only reason he's getting any coverage in the media, old or new, is that he's either trying to get back into football, or his retinue are spending money on stating his case. He's a convicted rapist. Pointing this out isn't persecution, it is a statement of fact. I agree he should have been unequivocal, but he hasn't, he's been the exact opposite, and that is a large part of the problem.

As manager.

Kinda see what you mean brummie. However if It was me and I was convinced and beleived I was innocent then I sure as hell wouldn't be showing remorse, just to appease the masses either. The whole thing from both sides seems distasteful in the extreme and I agree the 'aggressive' camapign and retinue around him harm his case imo. I would however be stating that rape is abhorent and that I don't just view women as sex objects etc. I think he's been badly advised on this aspect. Looking at the original case it does seem an odd one, and not a cut and dried solid case at all..imo. Lad shoud try and clear his name legally and if that happens then re start. The rape threat against Oldham staff etc can't be real. that is some sick shit. How is it distasteful from both sides, though? I mean, what is the other side you're referring to?

Yeah, agree with you 100%. I wouldn't be so against him returning to football had he shown some signs of reformation. As it is though he doesn't appear to have learnt anything from his experience. He maintains his innocence so any apology or show of remorse would only be superficial. He can think he is innocent as much as he likes, and an apology would be hollow, but the way he has acted, with the support of his girfriend's rich family, smacks of arrogance, and the suggestion that if you've got enough cash, you can just buy yourself out of trouble. Look at any football forum you like where people are discussing this and you'll see people suggesting he's actually not guilty, or what he did wasn't too bad, that it happens all the time where young people go out to get pissed, all these things, but the fact remains, Ched Evans has been tried according to the laws of the land and found guilty. He launched an appeal against his conviction, which was refused. The law says he's a convicted rapist, the law has said it twice. The "yeah but" shit which goes on amongst football fans (and clubs, it seems) makes me want to puke.

they are allowed, but they're clearly massively open to abuse and keeping evans out of football has become a thing in itself now imho - if it was a poll of genuine supporters who were always knocking him back then aye fine but it's clearly not assuming those 4k/20k oldham petition numbers are correct it's just nonsense I see your point here but I think you need to look at the repercussions of him getting back into football. Parents, regardless of whether they like football or not, will want to sign the petition if they have kids who like football. so it's think of the children now? i'll not agree he should be blocked from playing if clubs want him to play for them, which they obviously do He isn't blocked from returning to football, though. That's a pretty important point. Clubs are not signing him because the fans or sponsors - or both - do not want to see their club associated with someone like him. That's entirely understandable, but it is not the same thing as being "blocked" from playing, which implies some form of legal restriction.

Yes. When he spends more than peanuts on a player, he can spot a good one. Vlaar was good for 4m, Benteke, obviously, a superb signing. Even Kozak, before he got injured weighed in with a decent goal ratio, and Carlos Sanchez is looking more and more like a very good signing. That's all good. What isn't all good is the coaching side of things, where he's just all over the place.

Absolutely zero. The owner has set the bar at not getting relegated. So long as that doesn't happen, he doesn't care. Lambert got a new four year contract in September. Incredible. Would you take going down to try and enforce change? No. Partly because he won't get sacked even if he gets us relegated. Seriously, he's bullet proof.

What do you expect? Be careful what you wish for. I have no idea what you mean.

Absolutely zero. The owner has set the bar at not getting relegated. So long as that doesn't happen, he doesn't care. Lambert got a new four year contract in September. Incredible.

The fact he's a convicted rapist is only part of the problem with Evans. it is also his behaviour since (the references to "my infidelity", the girlfriend's rich family bankrolling him, and offering to cover any losses as a result of employing him, the people hanging around him in his retinue), he really has created a situation where it is harder for him to get back into the game, not easier.

Rumours Cleverley won't join us as he wants to go to Everton. Further rumours this is because he thinks we're directionless in terms of management. On the second sentence, he's right, and it is a disgrace. On the first, thank FUCK for that, I'd be mortified if we spent 7m on him. Total waste of space.

hmm, "they tried to fuck me when i was having a low time" You were in prison, Joey, how many people in normal walks of life do you think would still be employed whilst in prison? I take the point about the likes of Wise, Ashley and Lambias being cunts, but fuck me, Barton is exactly the sort of "me, me me" footballer that makes me want to start watching rugby instead. What a massive arsehole.

If that's the case, then when the law changes to reflect that, Ched's in the clear.

Down to dickheads on twitter and that though, not Evans fault really is it? Not like he's doing a Michael Myers and pursuing her or owt. His website and family haven't helped like. Yeah I'll concede the point there. Hardly been the classiest of advocates for "justice" it must be said. That is exactly the problem. I have seen him interviewed and he still refers to the rape as "my infidelity" Now, the whole , "maybe he was innocent" thing is an understandable argument, at least from him, but as things stand, right now, Ched Evans is a convicted rapist. He's also a convicted rapist who not only hasn't expressed any remorse, he continues to act as if what he did is comparable with getting a bit pissed one night and cheating on your girlfriend. All the "yeah but what if he's not guilty" stuff is totally irrelevant - if we are going to look for mitigating factors here, then they are not going to come from arguments along the line of "maybe he's not guilty". The most depressing thing about this whole situation now is seeing football clubs who are just looking for any little opportunity to find a way they can employ someone like Evans and get away with it. Sheffield United shat themselves because Jessica Ennis threatened to take her name off the stand, Charlie Webster threatened to resign, those sort of things, but Oldham are clearly thinking they can find a way to make it happen without taking too much flack. I'd be absolutely fucking mortified if my club acted like that.

Unbelievably, someone in the press cottoning on to the weirdness of Lambert. From the Graun

Bony to Man City. How fucking depressing to see that happening.