Vinny Green Balls

I can't fucking believe that you don't have Jason Lee in your top 10.

I am literally talking about how the ball sticks to Messi's feet while running at full speed, and how he seems to go through 3 defenders like they are not there. Zidane was incredible, but I don't think he quite had Messi's abilities there. A lot of it goes back to Messi's balance at full speed.

Sometimes it looks likes it's impossible for anything but an IDF bulldozer to remove the ball from Messi's feet. That's why he is rightly compared to Maradona. Zidane sure as hell did not have his ability with the ball, nor his unbelievable balance.

Zidane was a joy to watch tbf. But I'd still have Messi above him. the more I think about it, the more I agree tbh. I suppose it's a matter of whose style I prefer watching that would even give me pause, which is obviously not a good way to measure who is the better player. Otherwise, I would have Michael Laudrup in the same breath, because of how much I looked forward to watching him play. But he was obviously no Messi.

And Messi's miss was shocking last night, but only because we are used to seeing him bury it 8 out of 10 times. Many tend to forget his past misses.

For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side. In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil. Exactly, the World Cup is too narrow a field to judge it by imo. By the way this is no defence of Messi, just a point i'm making in general. I respect that, but for me and many others the World Cup is the biggest stage of them all, the stage where the greatest of all times all played above their levels and won no matter who the opposition were. I see Messi as the best of his generation, but like I said how can he be considered the best of all times if he won't even be considered the best to play for his country? I for one thought he was resting for the World Cup, but it's quite clear something isn't right, while HTT is a bit harsh I agree with a lot having watched every Barcelona game this season. But it also depends on the opposition. That '86 German team was not great to be frank, and did just enough to get into the final. That early goal, and France's exhausting and immense quarterfinal with Brazil gave Germany just enough to shock France. I wonder what Argentina-Brazil or Argentina-France would have been like?

I don't think Zidane is better than Messi. Adding all things up, I would have to pause to decide who is better tbh, probably I would give the nod to Messi. But Zidane's 3 World Player of the Year awards is nothing to shake a stick at. Both played with their generations best players, although I think Messi's supporting cast shades it. Both have fucked up when their team needed them the most (Zidane's head butt in '06), which happens to nearly anyone. But both have also stepped up when their teams have needed them the most. Messi just hasn't really done it so much on the international stage. But one thing Messi has that sets him apart from almost any player I have ever seen is his supernatural balance.

For players born there, then yes, but Messi is from Argentina, one of the greatest football nations and who over the last 10 years have had players in abundance and yet failed to win anything except a silly Olympic gold. So yes he has ''failed'' at international level. That's still unfair in some ways, Messi could have been born when other Argentina players were average, yet a Spanish player could have been born in a golden era of Spanish players therefore having the advantage and platform to perform. Just imo like. not to mention Messi was an adult in the era of that brilliant, dominant Spanish side, and now this fantastic German side. In '86, Maradona had a good team, and did carry them at times, but he was also a bit lucky that he didn't have to face the two most talented sides in the tournament (both of whom were very unlucky, and played each other in one of the best games I have ever seen): France and Brazil.

Phill Neville won more than Shearer... who was the best player? Shit argument I know, but for me its about indivdiualsim at the end of the day when debating these things as that's what we are building here, the individual. Not a team, not a match, not a season, but a player. Messi is undoubtedly fucking great, the best player of his generation and one of the best of all-time, but as individuals go, for me Zidane was better. I can't explain how or why, he just was. Its the way he played the game, got himself involved, how he applied himself during games, be them meaningless games or WC Finals. Its about aesthetics and style too, well for me anyway. Not that I know owt Zidane's elegance and vision was second to none. Even more than the '98 final, I'll never forget a supposedly past-it Zidane utterly dominate Brazil in 2006, showing those upstarts how the game is played. Zidane's game was much more than goals and assists anyway. It was often times the first pass in a series that led to a goal. I have a hard time saying that Zidane was the better player, but I sure as hell liked watching him play more. They are definitely in the conversation for me, however. Both brilliant and two of the best I have ever seen. But for those I have actually seen play (and not just highlights, which is the only reason I would exclude Pele) Maradona and then Cruyff still rank as the the top 2, although I was a kid and could well be giving them brownie points for nostalgia.

Exactly! What a horse shit decision. I don't know anyone who thought he was deserving of the Golden Ball. Most of the German team had a better tournament. And I would say that two other players on Argentina had a better tournament.

Baggio did carry Italy on his shoulders. Was sad how much he was vilified, considering that they wouldn't have gotten nearly as far without him.

Cruyff didn't need to win a World Cup to generally be considered the 3rd greatest player of all time. And neither does Messi to be listed with them. They both came up against a fantastic German side, and couldn't quite get it over the line in the King's parlance (although the Netherlands really should have won it in 74). In basketball, Charles Barkley never won an NBA championship, but he was without doubt one of the greatest players of all time. Some people get so stuck on this silverware thing. It takes more conditions to win, not the least of which is the team you go up against in the final. FFS, Inzaghi won the World Cup with Italy. That's great in all for a forward who can barely walk four steps without falling down, but nobody on this side of sanity would put him in the same league with Messi. Messi did not look himself throughout the World Cup. Only glimpses. I won't say he's the greatest ever, but I won't use winning a World Cup as my metric. Messi, the dour little hunchback that he is, is still one of the greatest players I have ever seen.

TBH Holland didn't exploit anything. It was an early set back which set the game tempo, with a good ref neither of the last two goals would've stood. They deserved the win for the tournament they've done, and for the way they defended. It's a good thing you're not blaming the ref.. The ref was s**** for both teams. You should have had a pen, but we should have had another, Silva should have been off, and Robben should be one on one after that Silva slip that was called a foul by Van Persie. Where did I blame the ref though? I'm just saying you're team didn't exploit anything and yet you deserved to win. Like I said, the ref missed on Silva, should've been a red and a free-kick, but I think he gave a penalty so he didn't have to send Silva off. Also, you should never have had a 2nd penalty, was quite clear a handball by Robben when Fernandinho went onto him. Anyways, not blaming the ref, just saying that the scoreline doesn't really reflect the game in general, still think Netherlands are a much more deserving team to get that bronze than us. We aren't even a top 8 side in this World Cup. Really? I didn't see a hand ball and I don't think anybody else on here mentioned it. I'd have to see it again, but I have my doubts. It looked like it hit off his arm when he tried to chest it down right before the foul.

I suppose one of the player strengths of Xisco would be that this wouldn't even be an issue.

It was the stint in the WHam reserves that made him the man he is today, Pardew played a blinder there! Just shows the poor quality on display in Brazil and the imperiousness of the EPL if a West Ham reject could boss a semifinal match.

Has he just stuck his thumb up that blonde lads arsehole? ;D The kid's body language is all Bishop Brennan...

They were completely outwitted and outplayed by a well-organized Argentinian team that didn't even need to rely on Messi. Argentina's approach to the second half was dead on, and their high pressing totally unsettled the Belgian players. Well deserved victory.

I just can't see them beating Germany without Neymar and Silva. Would it be viewed as a massive failure in Brazil if they got knocked out in the semis? The expectation for them to win it on home turf can't be played down but it will be a massive ask for them to get the final without both of their talismans. The likes of Oscar, Paulinho, Willian and Fred really have to step up in a big way. Expectations are down, we're underdogs now and throughout the last two games whoever we play. I think pressure will be off and that with this injury the team will actually get better. It's Oscars time to shine just like he did in the U20s when Coutinho disappointed and he took over and scored a hattrick in the final. He has the talent to be the star of this team, and it's time he steps up in the absence of Neymar. As for Thiago Silva, it's never good to lose your captain and leader on the pitch who also happens to be the best central defender in the world. But if I could pick anyone to step up in his place it's Dante, he knows the German side and he knows how to handle pressure. And if they do step up, then good on them. They will have deserved it, because losing these two is a crushing blow. Not to sound cliche but it really is a loss to the neutral that Neymar is out in such a way. Gutted for him

Comparisons to past teams, particularly those that have branded a certain style, are natural in any sport.

I just can't see them beating Germany without Neymar and Silva. Would it be viewed as a massive failure in Brazil if they got knocked out in the semis? yes. Host nation and all.

I think they have a huge amount of talent individually, but the sum is not nearly as great as the parts. They have look panicked and clueless half the time, when I expect a bit more from them, because I have seen what they can do at club level. I know it doesn't always translate, and the level of expectation may well be an albatross around their neck, but something just seems off with their play. Not to mention the cynicism of this team. Makes it impossible to like them. In fact, the only team in the knockout stages that I have liked less is Greece (Euro 2004 being one of the worst things to happen to football).

That 80's team was intelligent enough. People can accuse them of that shit all they want, and they'd be wrong. They were just extremely unlucky, having Italy win by the ref's officiating in '82, and particularly having to play against France in the game of the tournament in 86. Without Thiago Silva, I just have the feeling that the defense is going to self destruct. He has been brilliant, but the fullbacks are playing like Shaggy from Scooby Doo.

The ref just made abysmal decisions on both sides. It slanted in Brazil's favor until the end of the game though. But that non-yellow for that foul on Neymar was fucking awful

I think therein lies my contempt for this Brazilian side, and some its preceding sides, Felipao. Those sides of the 80's taught me some of the greatest football lessons, particularly getting my hopes up only to be dashed on the rocks by poor luck or shitty officiating. I still remember Zico getting his shirt ripped off in the Italy game in '82, and not even a fucking foul was called.

it really was. The ref allowed that shit to continue. James coolness under pressure, even while being fouled continually, impressed the shit out of me.