mrmojorisin75

totally agree with this 100% - the fact the club are letting nothing go to the press is creating the contradictory and negative agenda IMO, there's more than enough time to make signings, preferably before august at the latest so they at least get some time to bed in i also agree with what billtray says above, that for me we should and could have done something before the euros that might have got us a player we'll otherwise now not be able to get, perhaps more of a turan than an arshavin though as he was perhaps always looking above a club of our current stature

implies that the Rooney bid was a complete fabrication in order to appease the fans. Other posts have quite rightly pointed out that there were genuine intentions behind our bid. To move the goalposts to hide behind a valid argument that he wasn't going to sign for Newcastle because he eventually signed for Manchester United makes you look foolish as it is completely irrelevant to your original point. Just admit that you were wrong for once. bang to rights i suppose, too busy throwing in posts between work to remember what i've been on about, wish i had more time be more coherent but yes what i wrote there was wrong ultimately anyhow the rooney bid was obviously real, i'm not an idiot, but TO ME was never realistic due to the man u factor - other people disagree, that's life

Does this include people who genuinely just can't afford to go any more? Should they fuck off too? think benwell lads been pretty clear there personally, he's saying fuck all about people who can't afford it he's talking about people who don't feel it like or fancy going to the match 'cause of a few years of mediocrity

That is a huge statement to make considering 1) there has been no (to my knowledge) confirmation from the club we ARE ACTUALLY after these players 2) even if we had bid before Euro 08, there is guarantee that the clubs would agree to the sale or that the players would have come here anyway - all the players in the tournament (that were thinking of moving) would be silly to move before a competition they can market themselves in. Now the competition is over and the window open, we can now start to be more critical of the club. If come the end of July, early August we have nothing, then "all is not right at the club" might be appropriate. As others have said MA has done alot already - to the tune of about £250m. I am sure he knows more than most we need players (and good ones at that) - no person is going to make that kind of investment and then let it go to pot (by lacl of further investment). I am glad we are keeping our business to ourselves - all this negative press about our budget could just be one clever smoke screen to keep the player costs down. quite funny, i've been very pessimistic about our signings (primarily 'cause i just think the owners should have made an early statement of intent and signed someone up before the euros) but then i was emailing a mate today and was thinking "fuck it, pre-season doesn't start til the middle of july, plenty of time" just realised it's july tomorrow!!! ha ha ha not so pessimistic anymore for some reason, we've been making late signings and having shite starts to the season for years now, why should this year be any different?

have a think about it this way; newcastle put in a 17m bid for michael owen who is desperate to leave real madrid making them front runners for his signing as they're his only way to play regular football then liverpool decide they want him and will match the fee is it ever going to happen?...you can spout all the facts you like about that too but we both know what the answer would have been, only difference between the two is fergie wanted rooney enough exactly...they didn't and it did happen. all you are saying is if man utd hadn't come in for him we'd have got him.....it's the same with every player (ie if real madrid had been in first for ronaldo he wouldn't have gone to man utd) you are saying if we go in for players of that calibre then we will never get them as the man utd's and liverpools will nip in and get them. you've gave yourself an example of at least one occasion when it didn't happen. good of you though as most on here will conveniently leave out evidence that doesn't support their ideas but you on the other hand are prepared to damage your own argument in the name of finding the truth. aye alright mulder wasn't going to happen, NEVER mate...not sure what you're trying to say really...i've been fairly clear about the whole thing - in my opinion there was never a time when man u wouldn't have made the move to sign him once we started the ball rolling, that's it really what the f*** are you arguing about? that we put in a bid? never denied it that IF (and we eveidently disgree fundamentally about how big this IF is) manu didn't bid we might have got him? never denied it carry on though, you're doing well a big enough "if" that if we hadn't bid man utd wouldn't have. owen and liverpool was a great example as was ferdinand to arsenal or spurs before we signed him, and beardsley was off to leeds before we bid. you are saying rooney was "never" gpoing to happen,i'm saying it was a distinct possibility. what a pointless discussion we've just had man, he plays for man u, what's it matter? all conjecture anyways...stand by my point mind whole thing started from me questioning the motive behind the modric bid anyhow, and until we spend the 18m or so we offered to him then i'll continue to do so

he he he....this by the way, he hasn't signed a contract extension yet has he? so his release clause would still be 13m right? good to see we're gonna sell him for 15m that being the case

have a think about it this way; newcastle put in a 17m bid for michael owen who is desperate to leave real madrid making them front runners for his signing as they're his only way to play regular football then liverpool decide they want him and will match the fee is it ever going to happen?...you can spout all the facts you like about that too but we both know what the answer would have been, only difference between the two is fergie wanted rooney enough exactly...they didn't and it did happen. all you are saying is if man utd hadn't come in for him we'd have got him.....it's the same with every player (ie if real madrid had been in first for ronaldo he wouldn't have gone to man utd) you are saying if we go in for players of that calibre then we will never get them as the man utd's and liverpools will nip in and get them. you've gave yourself an example of at least one occasion when it didn't happen. good of you though as most on here will conveniently leave out evidence that doesn't support their ideas but you on the other hand are prepared to damage your own argument in the name of finding the truth. aye alright mulder wasn't going to happen, NEVER mate...not sure what you're trying to say really...i've been fairly clear about the whole thing - in my opinion there was never a time when man u wouldn't have made the move to sign him once we started the ball rolling, that's it really what the fuck are you arguing about? that we put in a bid? never denied it that IF (and we eveidently disgree fundamentally about how big this IF is) manu didn't bid we might have got him? never denied it carry on though, you're doing well

have a think about it this way; newcastle put in a 17m bid for michael owen who is desperate to leave real madrid making them front runners for his signing as they're his only way to play regular football then liverpool decide they want him and will match the fee is it ever going to happen?...you can spout all the facts you like about that too but we both know what the answer would have been, only difference between the two is fergie wanted rooney enough

not like someone on here to pick out the least pertinent part of a discussion to make a worthless point is it?

usual people in not listening mode - i've already said we could have signed him in the near-impossible scenario where manu WOULDN'T (note, not couldn't) find the cash it simply would never have happened 'cause manu were NEVER not gonna sign him, you can read this sentence right?...they were waiting til january or the following window due to cash if i recall but had their hand forced by our bid, that's the start and end of it, once we made the move they were always getting him simple as that post all the "facts" you want, i'm right 'cause he's wearing a red shirt oh and is that an intentional mis-spelling of my name? if so what's the implication?

If ManU had not rejigged their finances just to sign Rooney (i.e. Ferguson knew he couldnt miss out on him), we would have landed Rooney. At the time, Everton were your bog standard lower mid table team with no money and no indication of moving forwards. IMO they had nothing but a dirty side that kicked lumps out of the opposition team, although thats easy to forget now that them and e.g. Blackburn have moved on and play decent football. Right now we'd look back and think Rooney wouldnt move because it would be a sideways step, but at that time we were still a club that had recently been in the CL, we were still in Europe having just finished 5th, and we still had some star players in the squad - i.e. it looked like we merely had a blip as all sides do. Hence, we'd have been a sizeable step forward over Everton at the time. On top of all that, you have the fact that we'd have offered ludicrous wages that even now Everton wouldnt be able to or want to match, just as we did with Owen. Hence, if ManU werent in the picture (as they had led everyone to believe) and the choice was between moving to us on big wages and playing alongside Shearer et al, or staying with Everton for another year, I think he'd have moved, and therefore I dont see how it never would have happened. never would have happened 'cause manu would NEVER have not signed the lad, they were always gonna do what it took to get him, our bid just forced their hand (i take it you've heard the kenwright/shepherd rumour) - BUT in the other universe where ferguson misses out on the third english footballer who is the best of his generation then yeah, perhaps we might have got him but if you think it was possible for even a second you're mental - i'm sure i even remember rooney saying he'd never have joined the club anyways after the event get a grip man No Rooney has said he would have joined. He would have gone anywhere to leave Everton (once a Blue and all that.....) at that point. FWIW the Rooney deal was genuine and it was a close call that he went to ManU (I was auditing at Old Trafford at the time of the signing). aye, all well and good, never would have happened though!!

What event? you're kidding right? him signing for manu/leaving everton/us bidding is the event

If ManU had not rejigged their finances just to sign Rooney (i.e. Ferguson knew he couldnt miss out on him), we would have landed Rooney. At the time, Everton were your bog standard lower mid table team with no money and no indication of moving forwards. IMO they had nothing but a dirty side that kicked lumps out of the opposition team, although thats easy to forget now that them and e.g. Blackburn have moved on and play decent football. Right now we'd look back and think Rooney wouldnt move because it would be a sideways step, but at that time we were still a club that had recently been in the CL, we were still in Europe having just finished 5th, and we still had some star players in the squad - i.e. it looked like we merely had a blip as all sides do. Hence, we'd have been a sizeable step forward over Everton at the time. On top of all that, you have the fact that we'd have offered ludicrous wages that even now Everton wouldnt be able to or want to match, just as we did with Owen. Hence, if ManU werent in the picture (as they had led everyone to believe) and the choice was between moving to us on big wages and playing alongside Shearer et al, or staying with Everton for another year, I think he'd have moved, and therefore I dont see how it never would have happened. never would have happened 'cause manu would NEVER have not signed the lad, they were always gonna do what it took to get him, our bid just forced their hand (i take it you've heard the kenwright/shepherd rumour) - BUT in the other universe where ferguson misses out on the third english footballer who is the best of his generation then yeah, perhaps we might have got him but if you think it was possible for even a second you're mental - i'm sure i even remember rooney saying he'd never have joined the club anyways after the event get a grip man

I'd sign up to that tbf! Someone else in ahead of Alan Smith, yes. Piling all the expectation on a 16 year old, no. what if he's a total rooney-esque genius when he turns up? Then we won the lottery, but otherwise, I wouldn't expect to see him in the first team for another four~five years at least. agreed, just saying like...if he's shit hot throw the little tinker in from time to time, couldn't be worse than smith or duff The trouble is though that we wouldn't know whether he is shit hot or not, and that is where the problem lies. I've seen it before on here, people clamouring for an untried youngster against the manager's judgement as an alternative to dross currently being served up on to the pitch. Hasn't signed yet and people are already talking about him making the team in one year. Fact is that with all this clamour, should he come on as a 19 year old sub and merely show a few good touches, people will write him off. I wouldn't want to be trying to develop as a player in this pressure cooker. age old question though isn't it in football? do you throw them in and risk destroying their confidence or do you keep them out of the firing line and risk stunting their development?

I'd sign up to that tbf! Someone else in ahead of Alan Smith, yes. Piling all the expectation on a 16 year old, no. what if he's a total rooney-esque genius when he turns up? Then we won the lottery, but otherwise, I wouldn't expect to see him in the first team for another four~five years at least. agreed, just saying like...if he's shit hot throw the little tinker in from time to time, couldn't be worse than smith or duff

I'd sign up to that tbf! Someone else in ahead of Alan Smith, yes. Piling all the expectation on a 16 year old, no. what if he's a total rooney-esque genius when he turns up?

to tmonkey - that's all fine and dandy, and i agree we'd have found the money (added to the debt in other words) and in shepherds mind it could have happened - still doesn't change the fact it would NEVER have happened in the real world 'cause of who he was at the time...same for the ronaldinho "bid" or "interest" that was rumoured when he went to barca from psg to bealios - the key point you're missing i think is that under the old regime we made what you refer to as trophy signings when they weren't required, but now we're in need of a boost man, we're in the doldrums it's a fact...i'm not saying we should piss the whole budget away on an ageing henry or something as shepherd might have done, but bringing in a signing that would generate some excitement in the fans for what is to come should be seen as nothing less than a necessity right now IMO

It's a fair concern. I don't know why I'm particularly any more optimistic than you - I've paid for three years too so they'd better make it worth the commitment - but I still think we should be able to wait a couple of weeks more before getting too worked up. Everything the club has done so far (debt payments, managerial switch, the off-field changes, the youth signings) has been done with the long-term stability of the club done at heart IMO, even if they've not handled it all particularly skillfully. That gives me hope, along with the fact Keegan surely wouldn't have returned without promises of backing. I think we'll make a mixture of signings this summer in the end, but with an emphasis on younger players hungry to prove themselves (hence the Modric thing). I accept this might not be enough for some though. I'm waffling here, so I'll stop now. ever considered the modric move was nothing more than an attempt to "convince" fans we're gonna spend big when we're not dave? bit like the rooney move that was simply never going to happen in a 100 years but was designed to make us look like we were still competing/able to compete not saying it was, just saying it's worth considering...the optimists like yourself are basically hanging onto that modric shred at the moment for everything it's worth 'cause if you took that away then on the field wise things look pretty grim really don't they? said it ages ago, if we'd identified our targets as that move suggested we might have done then where was the move for the next player when that deal went south? he can't have been the ONLY person we intended to sign could he? a pessimist is never disappointed!!! what would be the point in that...3 days before the window shuts and after the season tickets had been renewed. in the modric case it would only have been worth it had NUFC leaked it but we'd been in talks for a few days and had kept shtum. as in the rooney case if the selling club had kept quiet no-one would have known and thus defeats the exercise you have as a conspiracy. OK then we WERE in with a shout of getting rooney then, fine AAAAAND NUFC never expected at any time in the modric deal that details of our bid would become public knowledge, a viewpoint i find laughable assuming all that is true, where is/was the move for the next guy after modric then? why was the move for modric so important/pressing? because spurs moved first? because he was our primary target? where's the secondary target? is there one, if so why is he not important/pressing for us to sign? EDIT: i'm just trying to point out things don't seem to quite add up with the new ownership right now, this is a thread about falling ST renewals after all, not about my apparent panic regarding our ability to field a team next season

It's a fair concern. I don't know why I'm particularly any more optimistic than you - I've paid for three years too so they'd better make it worth the commitment - but I still think we should be able to wait a couple of weeks more before getting too worked up. Everything the club has done so far (debt payments, managerial switch, the off-field changes, the youth signings) has been done with the long-term stability of the club done at heart IMO, even if they've not handled it all particularly skillfully. That gives me hope, along with the fact Keegan surely wouldn't have returned without promises of backing. I think we'll make a mixture of signings this summer in the end, but with an emphasis on younger players hungry to prove themselves (hence the Modric thing). I accept this might not be enough for some though. I'm waffling here, so I'll stop now. ever considered the modric move was nothing more than an attempt to "convince" fans we're gonna spend big when we're not dave? bit like the rooney move that was simply never going to happen in a 100 years but was designed to make us look like we were still competing/able to compete not saying it was, just saying it's worth considering...the optimists like yourself are basically hanging onto that modric shred at the moment for everything it's worth 'cause if you took that away then on the field wise things look pretty grim really don't they? said it ages ago, if we'd identified our targets as that move suggested we might have done then where was the move for the next player when that deal went south? he can't have been the ONLY person we intended to sign could he? a pessimist is never disappointed!!!

Keita is a holding midfielder mate. Suppose swapping him and Arshavin around could work. don't think toure set the world on fire last season did he? keita, iniesta, xavi as the three? first choice i mean

They're not going to drop Iniesta after the season he just had. is keita an winger/striker? thought he was DM/B2B midfielder?

Senna is class like, but Arshavin has never played against a holding midfielder in this tournament or one of any real class. All CL teams have a holding midfielder, and some are even better than Senna so i think put him in at Barca where he will be meeting these types of opponents week in week out then i think he'll be shown up big style. Yes but in the champions league playing for Barcelona teams are not just going to stop Arshavin there is Messi Iniesta Xavi and whoever else they bring in He was singled out yesterday because of how good he is put him in a team with other world class players and he will be brilliant OK, lets talk hypothetical Barcelona teams, where can Arshavin play? Assuming a flat back four is played, which six out of the following do you pick? (and yes I do know that some might be off) Xavi Iniesta Deco (probably be gone) Toure Keita Gudjohnsen (probably be gone) Eto'o (probably be gone) Ronaldinho (probably be gone) Henry Ezquerro (probably be gone) Messi Bojan Arshavin makes it a bit easier over the course of a season no? obviously any combination could leave, we'll see which ones but there's no way they'd keep that lot

no-one giving spain any credit for a tactical masterclass in how to shut down players then? arshavin's good but he's not a magician, within an actual second of touching the ball a spain defender had hit him and/or the ball...it was basically italian style defending same goes for zhirkov, he had ramos +1 more or less the whole game ronaldo (best player in the world TM) has had much less marking and failed on a much grander scale much more frequently

fair comment, didnt i see that french lad has gone on loan from ac milan to bourdeaux? gourcuff right? very highly rated for a few years but not getting a look in and still young identifying and trying to sign players like that makes sense, more sense than offering the likes of damien duff 70k a week

makes sense....so er, shit, maybe ashley does understand football!!!??!?!! fuck i'm lost, without a concrete standpoint to argue pointlessly i can't continue, goodbye cruel world...