magpie418

the comments are worthless, one man spouts an untruth and gets shot down exactly. proliferating lies leads too what?

Being serious and back on topic, I would suggest that people have a read of the times article posted by nsl above, including the comments.

What happens to people who get a face full of tear gas? That comment above doesn't say people were killed by the collapsing wall, they were killed in the panic. I'm sure if the police were shooting tear gas into the crowd, there would be plenty to panic about (if you could see where you were going for a start). I don't know about anyone else but i'm keeping an open mind on this, looks to me like the bloody polis could be responsible again!

I used to love it as a kid getting into football grounds back in the eighties, the mass of fellow fans heading in the same direction. I always enjoyed the moving as one moments, feet occasionally lifting up from the ground, carried along in a sea of black and white, 'hey man, how man, hey man, how man', the smell of beer in the air, the scent of an old leather jacket pressed against my nose, always a tab burning my ear, the jokes and laughter, the slow steady movement until the light got brighter and you finally emerged with the crowd noise ringing in your ears, that sound, the sound of the match about to kick off, nothing else like it, nothing in the world.

Everyone there contributed to being there, blame is a completely separate issue!

Yes, I've read what you have posted, and yes we agree they made the wrong decision. We will always disagree on this point, so there is no point carrying it any further. No more butts my friend.

Well put, summed it all up perfectly to me.

Well I wasn't there, but I would imagine that those fans who knew things were taking a turn for the worst were not able to send word back, via the mouths of other fans, to those who would of still of been coming through the gate. Funny that, no one has shown me anything, not even close, to suggest that some fans were accountable. Fans will always have an effect on events, they just have to turn up. But yes, we are going round in circles. Final post from me.

OK, taking your point to the extreme, we have thousands of ticketless fans attempting (one way or another) to gain access to the ground, who in their right mind would just open the gates? Question: I couldn't get a ticket in Marseille, I instead made my way to the nearest boozer. What would I of done if the police decided to just open the gates? Clue: The answer doesn't involve going to the pub. i'm not arguing anything at all about opening the gates dude, never have, patently an insane decision doesn't change anything i've said one iota however Doesn't change what? that you'll get some fans turning up at games without tickets? Nothing out of the ordinary, it happens all the time. If you are saying that if these ticketless fans had all decided to stay at home this would never have happened, then I disagree. The volume of late arrivals (those having that quick last pint), coupled with all those fans who were arriving late due to the large scale traffic problems, and the confusion caused by fans sent to that end of the ground from all over the rest of stadium, would of provided all that was needed to cause the disaster. Remember the area all these fans were allowed into was already filled to capacity, and there was no way to pass word back from those who knew what was happening inside to those still arriving and heading to the open gates.

OK, taking your point to the extreme, we have thousands of ticketless fans attempting (one way or another) to gain access to the ground, who in their right mind would just open the gates? Question: I couldn't get a ticket in Marseille, I instead made my way to the nearest boozer. What would I of done if the police decided to just open the gates? Clue: The answer doesn't involve going to the pub.

So minutes before kick off you open the gates to let thousands of fans into an area already filled to capacity. Madness.

So we have people on here believing that the police opened the gate due to the actions of people without tickets trying to get in, what happens when you open the gates? Now along with this minority of fans who may never have gained entry you also end up with a free for all of late arrivals, people just arriving from being delayed by traffic, the numerous fans sent from other parts of the ground, and anyone else who fancied it... absolute chaos. Anyone who has been in a supermarket checkout cue knows what happens when a new till opens, times that by thousands. The resulting chaos was the result of a decision made by the police/authorities. madras, you say that this decision was made to stop people being crushed outside the ground? so you open the gate and let everyone swarm into an already filled area? next time you have a pint try dropping a brick into it at seeing what happens. A child could tell you that was the wrong decision to make.

You have to factor in the fans sent to that end with tickets for other parts of the ground, plus the huge amount of fans with tickets still to arrive (of which it appears the vast majority arrived at roughly the same time). This in itself should of been policed properly, It would of been quite clear to the authorities that there were many fans who were arriving late due to traffic problems. And I ask those that consider the ticketless fans responsible for the causing the opening of the gate - Why did the police give in to the actions of a small section of fans? You don't have to be a maths teacher to work out that adding extra people to a sold out section would be somewhat of a problem. Why did they not do their job which is to provide safety to the public, and instead make a decision which they should of known would of had huge potential safety problems? Why did they not delay the kick off to alleviate any sense of loosing control of the amount of fans trying to get in? would delaying the game of been seen as a sign of weakness by the police authorities in charge, an inability to 'keep things in order'? (i'm referring here to a comment made above that delay's were uncommon then, the officer in charge was wet around the ears according to the report, and may of not wanted to appear unable to deal with the situation, so just decided to 'let them all in').

I raise you one: link

Outrageous! (I'll be writing to my MP!) I have never said that either your good self, or anyone else on this thread, have said that the fans were solely to blame. (I would find those with such a view inhuman). As for your 'but..', we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

Why not contain this 'pushing and shoving' outside the ground where there was plenty of room for the police to do their job? Why open the gates in full knowledge that the 'pushing and shoving' mass would move inside the ground with potential safety issues? Why when the decision to open the gate was made was there not any communication with officers/stewards inside the ground to filter this 'pushing and shoving' crowd into the emptier areas? Why not delay kick off to alleviate any 'pushing and shoving' and make the fans outside not feel rushed to get inside the ground? If your opinion is correct, then why did the police give in to the actions of a minority of fans? why did they make a decision to do something that could not be reversed and obviously had huge potential safety issues? Why when the easiest and safest decision to make was to delay the kick off, did they choose the most dangerous option? That is another thread mate, I'm not getting into that here. (but the segregation was crap).

Good question, who knows? a decision was made to open a gate letting in a large body of fans, if that decision was made before either radio/face contact with officers/stewards outside the ground/inside the stand then of course it will have an impact on the confusion. The decision was made to open the gate, this decision seems to of been made before adequate instructions had been passed to those on foot. You have to ask why they were rushed, and this seems to be where opinions on here is divided. My belief is simple, they didn't want to delay kick off. (maybe ITV are to blame).

What are these words I'm supposed to be putting into other peoples mouths? What were the 'mindless minority' adding too? (honest question) What were theses actions by some, exactly? and why would the police give in to them?

Well there are some that think it was all those marauding ticketless thugs baying at the gates. I think the answer is a little more straight forward, the authorities did not want to delay kick off.

I figured you were down with the Lizard King (judging by your username). So stuck 10p in the jukebox (I'm thoughtful like that). It hurts to set you free But you'll never follow me The end of laughter and soft lies The end of nights we tried to die.. (that's 20p gone)

Drivin' down your freeways Midnite alleys roam Cops in cars, the topless bars Never saw a woman So alone, so alone.. As i've said, in my mind the mistake was to open the gate instead of delaying the kick off, if that makes me deluded so be it.

Their training is all about keeping order (by any means necessary), they failed, and with that failure came an inability to understand a situation involving people that needed help, not discipline. Deliberate mistake or poor judgement? I like to think that beneath that cold hard exterior there is warm human flesh, and a heart. History tends to tell a different story though. In answer to your question I would say the latter.

No. You will always get ticketless fans turning up at games, wether its getting tickets for other parts of the ground, tickets off touts or pole vaulting over the wall, it happens, especially an important game just down the road (in relation to Europe). The amount of ticketless fans would not of made a difference to the amount of fans already with tickets (judging by the empty sections in that end) that were allowed to swarm into an already full section once the doors were opened, and there would of still of been plenty of fans outside the ground unable to get in (with or without tickets). waffle, did the ticketless fans contribute to the problem? if they did they deserve a share of the blame divorce yourself from the emotion man, otherwise you'll never be able to analyse anything objectively the weight of the blame lies with the police, that is for sure, but they don't bear 100% of it and anyone who says they do should have a think Ok, the main stand is already full, there are other sections with less fans (maybe some of these left the already full section because it was already full), the police decided to open a large gate and let those not already into the ground swarm into the already full area. Do I think the amount of ticketless fans would have any bearing on the outcome in relation to the total number of fans with tickets (including those sent there from other parts of the ground) that were waiting to get in, then no I don't. The decision should of been made to delay kick off.

Their training is all about keeping order (by any means necessary), they failed, and with that failure came an inability to understand a situation involving people that needed help, not discipline.

No. You will always get ticketless fans turning up at games, wether its getting tickets for other parts of the ground, tickets off touts or pole vaulting over the wall, it happens, especially an important game just down the road (in relation to Europe). The amount of ticketless fans would not of made a difference to the amount of fans already with tickets (judging by the empty sections in that end) that were allowed to swarm into an already full section once the doors were opened, and there would of still of been plenty of fans outside the ground unable to get in (with or without tickets).