magpie418

It was the police's decision to open the gates and let in a large amount of liverpool fans, the police would of known that amongst these fans were fans without tickets, but opened the gate regardless. If they had delayed kick off and policed the turnstiles properly this tragedy would not have happened. You cannot blame ticketless fans who are given the chance to watch their team when they themselves are let into the ground by the police.

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right? Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been). Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area). And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most.

But (damn.. it's catching), the problem started when police opened the central gate to let in a much larger amount of fans, are you saying these fans were all ticketless?, there is a good chance that the majority of these had tickets, and remember at this point there were sections of that end of the ground that were not full and had plenty of space, the problem was that the police did not filter this mass of fans into those areas, they instead let these fans surge through into the area already full.

Well it's all about how much effect these ticketless fans actually had on an already badly organised & mismanaged event, isn't it? The actions/inactions of the police/footballing authorities both before, during and after the event, along with the vile *reporting* of various media outlets, eclipse's any finger pointing at a small section of fans who may/may-not of contributed to the disaster, in my book. But each to their own.

Then we agree. Nor should we blame the rest of the traffic for that one car, as some on this thread appear to be doing. Agreed, the footballing authorities that saw fit to erect fences around football grounds should take some of the blame too. Like most football matches in those days there was always going to be a potential problem at this game, if all that was was some ticketless fans trying to gain entry, how did it escalate into the tragedy that it did? There are so many other factors that escalated what was at first something that should of been prepared for, and dealt with. (if indeed it was an inability to deal with ticketless fans that set the events in motion).

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft Jesus man, read it again. He said ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted. I've been both at times going to watch Newcastle (either UK or Europe), i'm sure i'm not the only one. bit confused as to why you've highlighted the word 'or' like it makes a difference. You cannot put all of the blame on the authorities when the a minority of fans have acted irrepsonsiblity Is 'black and white' different to 'black or white'? it makes a difference to me. As for your second point, what is the point then of the authorities if they can't act on the irresponsibility of a minority of fans? what exactly is the job of the authorities?

Can't say anything more than that really, spot on.

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft Jesus man, read it again. He said ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted. I've been both at times going to watch Newcastle (either UK or Europe), i'm sure i'm not the only one.

Ooh, a nice authoritarian blue colour... I feel like i'm talkin' to a copper. Despite your gift with typography, you appear to be somewhat of a paranoid/deluded fool, read what I said again, I said that 'anyone with half a brain' (ie, meaning pretty much anyone) 'and experience of policing'... (Translated the sentence pretty much means 'everyone' who has been to a football match can read the evidence and make up their own minds). simple? A ridiculous over-reaction by the footballing authorities, treating the average football fan like an animal, and finally resulting in many deaths? yeah I've thought about it. An easy get out following that almost worn out path of liverpool fans failing to take responsibility for their actions and desperately looking for anything or anyone else to blame. The fences contributed to the situation in so far as they were there, but again it's cause and effect. If hordes of liverpool fans hadn't been attempting to illegally force their way into the stadium there wouldn't have been a problem at all. An easy get out? something the police failed to provide to the dying fans trapped behind those fences, does it ever cross your mind that the police are paid to provide a service? that once things started to go wrong they failed in their job? in fact their actions/inactions made the whole thing worse? you keep returning to the 'spark' that set everything in motion (as mentioned this 'spark' can be discussed ad nauseum and is probably the effect of more than one isolated thing). To suggest it was a few is rubbish. There were many, many more than a few. In any case, nobody has said the Police didn't make mistakes so there's no point in you harping on about it, nobody has to be convinced of that so your point is irrelevant. can you give me the exact percentage of ticketless fans that got into the ground? So you admit that the police made mistakes... there's hope for humanity yet. I didn't say that, but if you feel misrepresentation is your best way forward then that's up to you. misrepresentation? I'm sure you would like that if it was indeed the case. what is a 'ridiculous' line in your (black) book then? is it 'ridiculous' to say that the police failed to do their job that day? that they failed to deal with an incident taking place before their very eyes? and does critique of the police's role make me 'some nob'?

Fyp & agree with you.

Big fucking difference pal. Heysel was a tragedy caused by the actions of a few hoolies (on both sides). The ground was a crumbling mess. what's that parasite got to do with it?

Wonderful, mate, but I don't see where I questioned your service to football. A ridiculous over-reaction by the footballing authorities, treating the average football fan like an animal, and finally resulting in many deaths? yeah I've thought about it. So what were the police doing to prevent the few ticket-less fans trying to gain entry? surely they should of been prepared if indeed this was the case? instead they herded fans into sections that were already full, and the police inside the ground did f*** all when people we're asking for help through the fences. So to question the police means you're a nob? nice. Whatever started the incident will be contested ad nauseum, but *afaic* the actions of the police made the whole thing 100% worse.

The thing is Dave it's not just about Hillsborough, it's about the way *all* fans are treat/were treated by the police/authorities. edited to add: Of course this is just my opinion on it all, so I won't continue with the blame thing further, anyone with half a brain and experience of policing at football games can go and read first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hillsborough, and make up their own minds.

A few hundred ticketless fans* -v- thousands of fans being treat like fucking animals by both the police and fence erecting football authorities. *And according to some reports it appears that the authorities were herding fans into sections of the ground that were already full (no doubt these eye witnesses are all part of the scouse propaganda machine...).

everything about the police there is true. they f***ed up big style that day. but anyone with experience of liverpool fans of the time and previous will tell you the same. how would i feel ? i'd feel as mad as hell towards anyone trying to gain entry to the ground without a ticket and the tactics they used to try to get in. You're a police apologist. Of course you are going to get some fans trying to get into the game by any means necessary, many fans of various teams, including us, were doing that kind of thing in those days (and for many years before). The police would of known this and are guilty of f***ing up big style, when they should of been there to help they did f*** all apart from make things worse.

We'll beat these.

Starting next season each player should have their wage printed across the front of their shirt.

As my old gran used to say "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger".

Maybe Ashley can but everyone a glass of champagne before the game.

they're both some ugly mammas

fyp.

Tighter than a nuns hoop mate.

Keegan spotted on the south coast.

Jesus Harold Christ