magpie418

 

i have nothing but loathing for those that contributed to it and won't accept it. (some fans, police,groundstaff etc)

It was the police's decision to open the gates and let in a large amount of liverpool fans, the police would of known that amongst these fans were fans without tickets, but opened the gate regardless.

If they had delayed kick off and policed the turnstiles properly this tragedy would not have happened.

You cannot blame ticketless fans who are given the chance to watch their team when they themselves are let into the ground by the police.

 

do you think the situation would have been the same if the numbers at the gate were smaller ?

 

do you think none of those ticketless fans were in that crowd attempting to gain access to the ground illegally ?

The Leppings Lane end was sold out correct? the whole of that end was yet to be filled with Liverpool fans, there were sections that were only partly filled, and the centre section were everyone went first was already full, right?

Now outside the ground you have all the other fans with tickets for the Liverpool end (including all those delayed), all the Liverpool fans who had been sent to that end of the ground from the other ends (there were probably already some of these fans in the Leppings Lane end). And the ticketless fans (however many this may of been).

Instead of delaying the kick-off to filter these fans into the ground, the decision is made to not only open the gates to let everyone in (who are all going to obviously rush in so as not to miss kick off, itself a H&S issue, the police's second mistake is to not filter these fans into the sections that had less fans, instead letting all these fans into an already full area).

And if that wasn't bad enough, they then failed to do anything about the carnage that ensued, when they were needed most.

it does eclipse it. no-one is saying any diffefrent,everyone is saying that, but (you just knew that "but" was coming didncha ?) after having witnessed with my own peepers the tactics of liverpool fans to gain illegal access to grounds i have little alternative but to add this into the blame.

 

note....not all liverpool fans but enough to start in motion, or add to, the chain of events.

But (damn.. it's catching), the problem started when police opened the central gate to let in a much larger amount of fans, are you saying these fans were all ticketless?, there is a good chance that the majority of these had tickets, and remember at this point there were sections of that end of the ground that were not full and had plenty of space, the problem was that the police did not filter this mass of fans into those areas, they instead let these fans surge through into the area already full.

A minority of Liverpool fans should take SOME of the blame for Hillsbrough and it's extremely hypocritical for the entire LFC support to point the finger at the police and only the police.

 

the victims can never be part of the cause, it's always the case. The police and footballing authorities should take the bulk of the blame, that i'm not disputing for a second, but are they aren't the only causes here, absolutely not in a million years.

Well it's all about how much effect these ticketless fans actually had on an already badly organised & mismanaged event, isn't it?

The actions/inactions of the police/footballing authorities both before, during and after the event, along with the vile *reporting* of various media outlets, eclipse's any finger pointing at a small section of fans who may/may-not of contributed to the disaster, in my book.

But each to their own.

 

the authorities didn't do their job properly, nobody is disuputing that.

Then we agree.

But that doesn't mean we run a red light then blame the traffic system.

Nor should we blame the rest of the traffic for that one car, as some on this thread appear to be doing.

The police we're mostly but not soely to blame here

Agreed, the footballing authorities that saw fit to erect fences around football grounds should take some of the blame too.

Like most football matches in those days there was always going to be a potential problem at this game, if all that was was some ticketless fans trying to gain entry, how did it escalate into the tragedy that it did? There are so many other factors that escalated what was at first something that should of been prepared for, and dealt with. (if indeed it was an inability to deal with ticketless fans that set the events in motion).

Whether ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted, the death of innocent people due to total negligence of safety and indeed missing human decency. The authorities were responsible for the safety of all those fans inside that pen and they failed and massively so. They are to blame, no-one else.

 

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft

 

Jesus man, read it again.

 

He said ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted.

 

I've been both at times going to watch Newcastle (either UK or Europe), i'm sure i'm not the only one.

 

bit confused as to why you've highlighted the word 'or' like it makes a difference.

 

You cannot put all of the blame on the authorities when the a minority of fans have acted irrepsonsiblity

Is 'black and white' different to 'black or white'? it makes a difference to me.

As for your second point, what is the point then of the authorities if they can't act on the irresponsibility of a minority of fans? what exactly is the job of the authorities?

The evidence is there for you to read, it's the best evidence available.  If you don't believe it nothing I or anyone else could say would make you change your mind.  Nothing that day was any different to any other semi final as far as hooliganism, riots or inter fan fighting goes. There wasn't any of that, so it's obvious that something else caused it.  Police have a duty of care and for many reasons, the main one being that the chief constable of the day had no experience of handling a match of that magnitude and had only been in the job for three weeks, they failed in their duty.  The police heirarchy then did  all they could, including lies and changing written evidence, to put the blame on fans.  It was easy wasn't it, after Heysel?

 

Lord Justice Taylor was a Geordie and a match going Newcastle fan in his youth.  I believe this gave him the insight to cut through all the police bullshit and produce an accurate report.

Can't say anything more than that really, spot on.

Whether ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted, the death of innocent people due to total negligence of safety and indeed missing human decency. The authorities were responsible for the safety of all those fans inside that pen and they failed and massively so. They are to blame, no-one else.

 

you acknowledge the ticketless and drunk yet you say NO-ONE else is to blame but the authorities. Very, very daft

Jesus man, read it again.

He said ticketless or drunk does not excuse what resulted.

I've been both at times going to watch Newcastle (either UK or Europe), i'm sure i'm not the only one.

You said..."Of course this is just my opinion on it all, so I won't continue with the blame thing further, anyone with half a brain and experience of policing at football games can go and read first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hillsborough, and make up their own minds." The implication is obvious, you think anyone disagreeing with you can't possibly have much experience of seeing how football matches are policed, ie, they don't have much experience of attending football matches. I was putting you right, that's all. Perhaps you don't understand your own comment.

Ooh, a nice authoritarian blue colour... I feel like i'm talkin' to a copper.

Despite your gift with typography, you appear to be somewhat of a paranoid/deluded fool, read what I said again, I said that 'anyone with half a brain' (ie, meaning pretty much anyone) 'and experience of policing'...

(Translated the sentence pretty much means 'everyone' who has been to a football match can read the evidence and make up their own minds). simple?

I didn't like the fences but they weren't put there to stop the players or the Police from entering the crowd. Think about it.

 

A ridiculous over-reaction by the footballing authorities, treating the average football fan like an animal, and finally resulting in many deaths? yeah I've thought about it.

An easy get out following that almost worn out path of liverpool fans failing to take responsibility for their actions and desperately looking for anything or anyone else to blame. The fences contributed to the situation in so far as they were there, but again it's cause and effect. If hordes of liverpool fans hadn't been attempting to illegally force their way into the stadium there wouldn't have been a problem at all.

An easy get out? something the police failed to provide to the dying fans trapped behind those fences, does it ever cross your mind that the police are paid to provide a service? that once things started to go wrong they failed in their job? in fact their actions/inactions made the whole thing worse? you keep returning to the 'spark' that set everything in motion (as mentioned this 'spark' can be discussed ad nauseum and is probably the effect of more than one isolated thing).

Can I take it that by believing first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hilsborough you're talking about liverpool fans and nobody else? What about the first hand accounts of the Police? What can be seen on video of people trying to break into the ground because they'd arrived there without tickets with that very intention? Does that not count or contribute toward this incident?

So what were the police doing to prevent the few ticket-less fans trying to gain entry? surely they should of been prepared if indeed this was the case? instead they herded fans into sections that were already full, and the police inside the ground did f*** all when people we're asking for help through the fences.

 

To suggest it was a few is rubbish. There were many, many more than a few. In any case, nobody has said the Police didn't make mistakes so there's no point in you harping on about it, nobody has to be convinced of that so your point is irrelevant.

can you give me the exact percentage of ticketless fans that got into the ground?

So you admit that the police made mistakes... there's hope for humanity yet.

Dave is right. It always descends into blame but that's usually because some nob throws in a ridiculous line about the Police, as though they were 100% the cause of the incident, then the discussion kicks off again because they weren't 100% the cause. Anyone with half a brain would know that, but the public wants a scapegoat for these things.

So to question the police means you're a nob? nice.

 

I didn't say that, but if you feel misrepresentation is your best way forward then that's up to you.

misrepresentation? I'm sure you would like that if it was indeed the case.

what is a 'ridiculous' line in your (black) book then? is it 'ridiculous' to say that the police failed to do their job that day? that they failed to deal with an incident taking place before their very eyes?

and does critique of the police's role make me 'some nob'?

In the 70s and 80s,

the stadiums were s*** and in a state of disrepair,

police crowd control was reactionary, provocative, and amateurish,

Some fans were rowdy and violent,

ticketing policy was inconsistent,

Tv coverage was minimal,

 

The blame,.. or reason for sensible people , is a combination of these factors, in almost all the cases mentioned.

Fyp & agree with you.

amazed no-one's brought heysel into this yet, so i will

 

who's to "blame" there then?  juve fans?  liverpool fans?  the fence?  the wall?  the police?

Big fucking difference pal.

Heysel was a tragedy caused by the actions of a few hoolies (on both sides). The ground was a crumbling mess.

i imagine this will sound incredibly heartless to the princess diana tears and tiaras brigade

what's that parasite got to do with it?

 

 

Been going to football matches since 1968, mate. Thought I'd mention it given your comment above.

Wonderful, mate, but I don't see where I questioned your service to football.

I didn't like the fences but they weren't put there to stop the players or the Police from entering the crowd. Think about it.

A ridiculous over-reaction by the footballing authorities, treating the average football fan like an animal, and finally resulting in many deaths? yeah I've thought about it.

Can I take it that by believing first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hilsborough you're talking about liverpool fans and nobody else? What about the first hand accounts of the Police? What can be seen on video of people trying to break into the ground because they'd arrived there without tickets with that very intention? Does that not count or contribute toward this incident?

So what were the police doing to prevent the few ticket-less fans trying to gain entry? surely they should of been prepared if indeed this was the case? instead they herded fans into sections that were already full, and the police inside the ground did f*** all when people we're asking for help through the fences.

Dave is right. It always descends into blame but that's usually because some nob throws in a ridiculous line about the Police, as though they were 100% the cause of the incident, then the discussion kicks off again because they weren't 100% the cause. Anyone with half a brain would know that, but the public wants a scapegoat for these things.

So to question the police means you're a nob? nice.

Whatever started the incident will be contested ad nauseum, but *afaic* the actions of the police made the whole thing 100% worse.

I find it sad that anything that mentions Hillsborough quickly descends into arguments about who was to blame.

The thing is Dave it's not just about Hillsborough, it's about the way *all* fans are treat/were treated by the police/authorities.

edited to add: Of course this is just my opinion on it all, so I won't continue with the blame thing further, anyone with half a brain and experience of policing at football games can go and read first hand accounts of witnesses who were at Hillsborough, and make up their own minds.

And you've been taken in by the Scouse "blame everybody else" propaganda machine. I expect it to get worse as time goes on.

 

Fact is, if hundreds of them hadn't been there without tickets, drunk and trying to force their way into the stadium the Police wouldn't have had any decisions to get wrong. Yes, the Police made mistakes, but that was a reaction to events that didn't need to happen in the first place. To ignore it is ridiculous.

 

A few hundred ticketless fans* -v- thousands of fans being treat like fucking animals by both the police and fence erecting football authorities.

*And according to some reports it appears that the authorities were herding fans into sections of the ground that were already full (no doubt these eye witnesses are all part of the scouse propaganda machine...).

No-one ever says it but I can remember the police at Hillsborough that day forming a cordon across the park because they thought the Liverpool fans were going to start a pitch invasion (this was on the telly - I wasn't there). They were either on horseback or had dogs, can't remember. So they stood there whilst people died, they were also shoving people back in because they were trying to stop this mythical pitch invasion. But that's never said either.

 

And wasn't the reason the fans kept coming in that they were directed that way? They just kept being told to go into the centre and they just kept piling in. I think to blame them is extremely insensitive, not to say clueless when you don't even know what happened. Try to think what it would be like if it was one of your family? Would you like oiks on the Liverpool board discussing how it was your fault?

 

The police were always obsessed with pitch invasions, everyone forgets that before Stewards we had Police in their place. Didn't everyone say it was a cheap way for them to watch the match?

everything about the police there is true. they f***ed up big style that day. but anyone with experience of liverpool fans of the time and previous will tell you  the same.

 

how would i feel ? i'd feel as mad as hell towards anyone trying to gain entry to the ground without a ticket and the tactics they used to try to get in.

You're a police apologist.

Of course you are going to get some fans trying to get into the game by any means necessary, many fans of various teams, including us, were doing that kind of thing in those days (and for many years before).

The police would of known this and are guilty of f***ing up big style, when they should of been there to help they did f*** all apart from make things worse.

We'll beat these.

 

Be interesting to see how many clubs fail to find new shirt sponsors in the immediate future.

Starting next season each player should have their wage printed across the front of their shirt.

As my old gran used to say "What doesn't kill us makes us stronger".

If we do go down, we'll be the richest club ever to play in the second tier of English football.

Maybe Ashley can but everyone a glass of champagne before the game.

It must have been Rooney man, cos CRonaldo is well fit.

they're both some ugly mammas

i wonder what jfk would have made of it? lol

 

jfk - 'which one of you is ronaldo?'

ronaldo - 'me'

jfk - 'you're an ugly c***'

fyp.

 

gonna be tight huh?

Tighter than a nuns hoop mate.

Keegan spotted on the south coast.

Jesus Harold Christ