fredbob

How would people of felt if Keegan did go out and sign these players ignoring the clubs emphasis on youth? Persoanlly, as crazy as it sounds, id hate it if he signed those players. I cant help but feel that this leek is legitimate becasue i feel the names mentioned were too specific, sort of a deny it if you dare sort of statement.... It leads me to pose the question, would keegan be the best appointment if he did have a pot full of money?

Interesting - so far, apart from Poyet im happy with who shown reasonable interest. Would be a bit of a traversty if they appointed Poyet over Terim, Zico or Deschamps....

This appointment would kill me to be honest - obviously he'd appear to fit seamlessly into the new set and at the end of the day, that is the most important thing. However, i personally long for a 'manager' who will excite and i'll say it, appease the fans, it's twice as imporotant now as it was in January to appease us and with that they need to bring in a manager who has already shown at least a modicum of talent and good footballing philosiphy. I dont doubt Poyets ability - as an assitant, but as a manager i've got nothing to see that could appease me, im not even sure what type of personalityhe has. No thanks.

yes.

Plenty of British managers have managed top clubs, alot more than Brazilians have. managed as oppose to manage.

The only time in premiership history we've looked abroad for a manager was SBR. Theres a reason not many top clubs have british managers - becasue they're usually shit. Kets try something different for once. I could happily get behind a team coached by Zico.

Based on? Never managed in the PL for a start. This isn't the time for an exotic coach, the rest of this season will become backs to the wall stuff very quickly. He won;t know what to do. IMO the time to expriment with a coach like Zico is when everything else is in place and that certainly isn't the case with us. Werent you willing Klinsmann to come here after SA got sacked? Whats change guv'nor?

You forget that we have no transfer budget, and that our most valuable player will be leaving for free next summer. True, although to be fair, im just pointing out that this inevitable interference from the DoF is a bit of a red herring. Its like a lot of logic on this board at times, one things happened before so it WILL happen again. I can see a good manager being our next appointment - hopefull keegan.

Could he do both? I seem to remember Hiddink managing a club while being the boss of Australia. If Walt Disney was still alive, he could be DOF and his No 1 Protege, Mickey Mouse would be the bus - I mean, Coach....Oh Wait - we HAVE a small, garrulous person on the staff already...! People like Hiddink , despite being foreign, wouldn't even look at the NUFC set-up ; Sven would if he was stuffed for a job, but only because the money would be handy, so where does that leave your DOF theory? NOBODY of any stature will want this job if they don't have absolute power over who comes in & who goes out... This DoF and lack of say on transfers is a massive red herring if you ask me, IN MY OPINION if keegans list was suitable and fitted in with the clubs policy we wouldnt be having the problems we face now. I think it's perfectly viable that a high profile manager would come into this job and have full say on transfers providing they fitted in with the clubs policy, and i can imagine that a current manager would be able to provide a selection of players who would fit in with the policy having been in the game without break.

Name me one, just one Newcastle fan who would take either Curbishley or O'Leary over Terim. I have no particular reason to want Terim myself, but at least he is not on my 'not in a million years' list. Sniffer? He wouldnt want a brown one.

To be honest - my view of the new set is starting to change a little bit - not because i believe its x's fault of y's fault but i think they have done the cardinal sin and forced a manager out who was doing well for this club in particular. Having being witness to so many poor appointments and therefore many shitty seasons with no hope, i can honestly say that from the outset this set up looked excellent - and to a degree i still do, however, the club cant be excused from a basic lack of communication and a bit of foresight, i dont believe the main issue here is x undermining y or y falling out with z or whatever, i feel that the suitabliltiy of the targets lead the club to have to undrmine Keegan, i think they may of thought it could of been a PR disaster if it was leaked that they had to tell him to change his list having spoken openily about him having free reign. They put themselves in between a rock and hard place. By creating 2 seperate lists the club put a definitive fracture in one of the most volatile and sensitive areas of football club management, it was pointed out at the time that this was a very dangerous policy and and it appears that it became too dangerous - and for this lack of (in my opinioon) lackof foresight the club should really be lambasted for this. I can see 2 or 3 ways in which this could of been sorted or at least helped: The club could of communicated the issue better with Keegan and told him the lists werent suitable, risked the short term aggro for the long term gain. The club could of made Keegan create his list more closely with Wise etc. The club could of given the 2 people 2 seperate budgets, Keegan witha larger one obviously. (However still doent guratuee that Keegans targets would be suitable) EDIT: yep ya right,

Isnt Terim the manager that Wenger said he rated the most highly in Europe? Sounds like a good endorsement to me.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/newcastle/article4692140.ece Interesting article in the Times, backs up my theory of the unsuitable targets list - however the alledged transfer budget is truly astounding. Would be absolutley disagreaceful if that is true. EDIT: sorry if posted somewhere else.

Macca, serious question, are you aware that nearly every club, and certainly every top 4 club has debts of hundreds of millions? It is partly why they are where they are in the league table. Anybody who thinks a club can seriously challenge for the title without debts or huge external investment is living is cloud cuckook land? I believe you have said elsewhere you would rather support a mediocre NUFC that balances the books well than a NUFC that spends more than its incomings in order to put a realistic challenge in to challenge the top clubs? Whilst I accept that position, I don't think many people will agree with you, and I also believe that you are missing a point: with all the billionaires looking to get in on the action the value of Premiership clubs is now less related to its incomings than ever; it's all about the profile of the club and whether it is perceived as being big and successful. When Ashley took over the general consensus was that in order to make money in this sort of venture you need to invest first (accrueing debts if you will). If Ashley hasn't grasped this concept he is well at risk of being in for a shock, especially if this running the club like a business lark will result in us relegated a few years down the line as the likes of QPR will invest heavily to take over the Premiership places left by clubs that will have failed to react to the changes quickly enough. It's a rat race now, and you need to race along to be in with a chance of winning, whether you like it or not.. As this is the crux of your argument ill address this point. Would i be mistaken to think that these clubs were pretty stable and successful before they acquired thse massive debts? Chelsea are "in debt" to Roman, Man U have been left with Glaziers debt, Liverpool with H+G and Arsenal have the stadium debt having all been reasonably successful for many years now. Nufc on the other hand have a fair bit of debt topped off with huge wages without the same level of success OR stability, its hardly a fair comparison in my eyes. Its as though that if Ashley hadnt paid off the debt and in fact added to it, as well as the "roll royce" wages you'd be happier and appeased irrespective of the future of the club. To me what spurs and arsenal have done is what we should be doing, improving the quality of the squad whilst splashing out on big signings but still keeping financially stable, as well as bloodeing younger hungrier players. You don't seem to be aware of the extent of the situation at all. Here's some reading material for you: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/columnists/davidbond/2294763/Credit-crunch-could-hurt-Premier-League-clubs.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2301797/Deloitte-football-finance-review-Club-by-club-Premier-League-analysis.html As I expect there is every chance you will not be arsed to do some investigation into this issue as it doesn't tie in with what you want to believe allow me to make it easier to digest from you by putting a few quotes here: => does that make a 70m debt for Newcastle United in 2007 so extraordinary? Regarding Aston Villa: Regarding Man City: Regarding Fulham: I'm sure after seeing those figures you will agree that Newcastle United was not exactly in a unique debt situation here when compared to their (business) competitors? All in all it's all well saying it will all end up dramatically for those clubs involved and billionaires are cheating when they "buy" their way to titles, but ironically you could just as well claim the top clubs have so far "borrowed" their way to titles and trophies; care to explain to me how that is any less cheating than depending on external investment flat out? That does seem pretty emphatic so i'd struggle to argue that too muc BUT for one point, the top4 clubs were acruing debt not in the same way that nufc had (having debt plied onto them AFTER being successful), and there revenue stream will be much higher than ours is, secondly does our turnover/expenditure ratio match the other clubs you mention - basically what im saying is that without a benefactor - were we in a financial position to be able to sustain and even add to those debts with our turnover/expenditure ration being so high (80%) without sponsporship money whiich had already been spent? If not, then there only seems to be 2/3 options available for the club 1) reduce wages to a more sustainable level, 2)change the transfer policy to the benefit of the club, (i.e bring them in younger and cheaper, with lower wages and but the quality to become stars and also be a financial asset should they want to be sold and finally 3) clear the debts in one go. Thats exactly what this board looked to do -are you telling me that Ashley should HAVE to foot the bill or do you think that the club should maybe of bloated its debts even more to appease short term thinkers like you?

I think Deschamps would be fine here, wlaked out due to board interference but i think if he supplied and up to date decent list which fit into the clubs policy then he'd be fine. Would be a progressive appointment if you ask me, however the majority of the fans wont take to him. Then again i could be wrong.

Macca, serious question, are you aware that nearly every club, and certainly every top 4 club has debts of hundreds of millions? It is partly why they are where they are in the league table. Anybody who thinks a club can seriously challenge for the title without debts or huge external investment is living is cloud cuckook land? I believe you have said elsewhere you would rather support a mediocre NUFC that balances the books well than a NUFC that spends more than its incomings in order to put a realistic challenge in to challenge the top clubs? Whilst I accept that position, I don't think many people will agree with you, and I also believe that you are missing a point: with all the billionaires looking to get in on the action the value of Premiership clubs is now less related to its incomings than ever; it's all about the profile of the club and whether it is perceived as being big and successful. When Ashley took over the general consensus was that in order to make money in this sort of venture you need to invest first (accrueing debts if you will). If Ashley hasn't grasped this concept he is well at risk of being in for a shock, especially if this running the club like a business lark will result in us relegated a few years down the line as the likes of QPR will invest heavily to take over the Premiership places left by clubs that will have failed to react to the changes quickly enough. It's a rat race now, and you need to race along to be in with a chance of winning, whether you like it or not.. As this is the crux of your argument ill address this point. Would i be mistaken to think that these clubs were pretty stable and successful before they acquired thse massive debts? Chelsea are "in debt" to Roman, Man U have been left with Glaziers debt, Liverpool with H+G and Arsenal have the stadium debt having all been reasonably successful for many years now. Nufc on the other hand have a fair bit of debt topped off with huge wages without the same level of success OR stability, its hardly a fair comparison in my eyes. Its as though that if Ashley hadnt paid off the debt and in fact added to it, as well as the "roll royce" wages you'd be happier and appeased irrespective of the future of the club. To me what spurs and arsenal have done is what we should be doing, improving the quality of the squad whilst splashing out on big signings but still keeping financially stable, as well as bloodeing younger hungrier players.

the only direction the club should be going is the tried, tested and proven method of the last 100 years Which is quite simply that the highest placed clubs are that because they buy the best players. So less of the "system" bollocks and attempting to defend a bunch of amateurs. The manager runs the club. He picks his staff and scouting systems. He picks who to sell and who to buy. And his board back him as much as possible, which in the case of NUFC is a damn sight more than poxy little clubs that have to incorporate "business plans" and financial limits simply because they are poxy little clubs that need to do it because they are poxly little clubs. Whatever people who say they supported the club when they tried to adopt such a policy.........as knackerjacks and idiots like mick says to the contrary............ mackems.gif End of story your idea of "the best players" seems to be those that cost the most money, at least from what i've seen so far. I think ashley may have regretted keegans appointment quite quickly. its clear now that both parties had different visions of how to take newcastle forward, and it must have become apparent very quickly that keegan didn not share ashley's vision. the best thing he could have done may have been to sack him in the summer, although we've seenwhat areaction that will have brought out from the fans. however, if you have a manager, he must have full control over everything, ashley hired him, and if he couldn't fire him then his only other option should have been to back him. instead he tried to get his way without sacking keegan and ended up with this joke of a system that was unfair on keegan and the club. this was inevitable. thats what i think anyway. what i will say is that if you have a manager that is unsackable, like keegan then there is always a risk something like this could happen, although ashley should have thought much more carefully about keegans appointemnt and not assumed he would come around to his way of thinking. i dont think we could have attracted any better players than jonas, and colo, i think we've done brilliantly to get both of them, and i hope to god we dont lose them. This is a pretty good post - but for me the final say has to be with the owner and if he wants to implement a different system - surely thats his perogative. the sticking point for me are the respective lists and i think that was the sticking point for the board and keegan too.

the only direction the club should be going is the tried, tested and proven method of the last 100 years Which is quite simply that the highest placed clubs are that because they buy the best players. So less of the "system" bollocks and attempting to defend a bunch of amateurs. The manager runs the club. He picks his staff and scouting systems. He picks who to sell and who to buy. And his board back him as much as possible, which in the case of NUFC is a damn sight more than poxy little clubs that have to incorporate "business plans" and financial limits simply because they are poxy little clubs that need to do it because they are poxly little clubs. Whatever people who say they supported the club when they tried to adopt such a policy.........as knackerjacks and idiots like mick says to the contrary............ mackems.gif End of story Again, you're missing the point though, the point being that Ashley wanted to change the system and structure of the club, the rest about proven method is a moot point really. In an ideal world, id of liked to of seen Keegan get a fat wedge and free reign to do whatever he wanted - but having exhausted that system in the past i can understand why Ashley wanted to change the system, im not defending him whatsoever, nor am i attacking Keegan, but from my perspective i see the transfer targets as being the main issue here which undermined the whole system. I believe that Keegan (having been out of the game for 3 years) created a list which was a little out of date and categorically didnt fit in with the sysytem (bare in mind that this is the system the club wanted to implement from the outset and keegan agreed to it), with so may unsuitable targets it put the club under a little pressure. If Keegan had thought up of a more current and suitable list do you think the club would of undermined him so much? Do you think keegans knowledge of players round england and europe was damaged a little from the absence of the game?

What reasons were there for not hiring them at that point? To me, reading 'between the lines', i see 3 major issues - the pre determined direction of the club - Spurs/Arsenal model which look for future gems and the continental set up, i see keegans list and i see wise's list. Now the set up and direction has been discussed and agreed with, we're all fine there, now we get to the lists, again, reading between the lines i see names like Dunne and Riise being bandied around on keegans list - older, no sell on value, no long term value, high wages, keegan doesnt have the knowledge of good young up and comers becasue he;s been out the game for so long - no one will of been rinign him up in those 3 years saying "keep an eye out for this lad etc etc" , i doubt he had a decent grasp of the wuropean games either. Wise et al DO, and they stuck to the clubs direction signing young players as well as players who arent on high wages and do have a decent sell on value (whihc is indicative of their value to the club), now here we hit the fork road - do we look to go after all keegans unsuitable targets or go after the ones that do fit in with the proviso? I know, and i think you know that the club should be going the direction that the owner wanted it to.

To the point and a fair appraisal. Ashley Out. If Alex is right, its got f*** all to do with Ashley, its all about Wise. This is just more of the same mindless tripe that has been flying around for the last few days. This evil system which has supposedly caused all the trouble is the same one that Keegan bought into when he agreed to join the club, and the same one that seems to have done a good job of strengthening the team over the summer. Now because Keegan throws a hissy fit, everyone decides that things were no good all along. I don't think it's occurred to many that it might well be Ashley who's the one that's acted with integrity here. Keegan was trying to use his standing with the fans to force him to sack Wise. In many ways that would have been the easy option for Ashley - that would have kept the peace. But he decided that Wise was doing the job that he'd been asked to do, and there was no justification for sacking him. Regardless of whether you think the DOF system is the right one, at least Ashley was prepared to stick to his beliefs and not make Wise a sacrificial lamb, no matter what the outside pressure was. Good post - i just dont see the logic that people are forming there opinions from. The way i see it is that Keegans targets didnt fit in with the direction the club wanted to go - what were they supposed to do? Break that fundamental pricipal of the club in order to appease the messiah or stick to there guns? The picture i see in my mind is Ashley sitting lonely in his mansion whilst Keegan has his credit card like a spoilt wife. Why hire him then? Is that a genuine question?

To the point and a fair appraisal. Ashley Out. If Alex is right, its got f*** all to do with Ashley, its all about Wise. This is just more of the same mindless tripe that has been flying around for the last few days. This evil system which has supposedly caused all the trouble is the same one that Keegan bought into when he agreed to join the club, and the same one that seems to have done a good job of strengthening the team over the summer. Now because Keegan throws a hissy fit, everyone decides that things were no good all along. I don't think it's occurred to many that it might well be Ashley who's the one that's acted with integrity here. Keegan was trying to use his standing with the fans to force him to sack Wise. In many ways that would have been the easy option for Ashley - that would have kept the peace. But he decided that Wise was doing the job that he'd been asked to do, and there was no justification for sacking him. Regardless of whether you think the DOF system is the right one, at least Ashley was prepared to stick to his beliefs and not make Wise a sacrificial lamb, no matter what the outside pressure was. Good post - i just dont see the logic that people are forming there opinions from. The way i see it is that Keegans targets didnt fit in with the direction the club wanted to go - what were they supposed to do? Break that fundamental pricipal of the club in order to appease the messiah or stick to there guns? The picture i see in my mind is Ashley sitting lonely in his mansion whilst Keegan has his credit card like a spoilt wife.

Great post again. Was about to write a similar thing my self - to me the likes of Riise and Dunne (supposed keegan targets) represented a high risk strategy which didnt seem to fit in with the clubs percieved direction. I remember in January, Mort reiterating the point about hidden gems and looking at the arsenal model. It comes down to what people think is the most important thing for the club and who should have the most say on the direction of the club - should it be the owner who has the most say on the direction of the club or should it be the manager? Those of you who are pro keegan anti Ashley will belive that the manager should have most say - even if that compromises the direction that the owner of the clubs wants the club to go, which shouldnt be the case. My personal opinion is that the owner should have the impetus on direction and it seems clear to me that this was the directio that the club wanted to go - it also seems clear to me that Keegans list may have been out of date, what should the club do?

I think people may be overplaying the whole idea that Wise et al are in charge of comings and goings, i personally believe that Keegans targets werent of the required standard possibly due to hium being away from the game for too long hence the reason that Wise's targets got persued more. Maybe a current manager who has been in the game for a while who has a good idea of who he'd like to bring in which would fit in with the requirements of the club would allow this set up to work better? I personally havent been sold on Rijkaard, despite winning the CL im STILL not convinced of his pedigree - it seemed to fall apart after Hnk Ten Cate left. A young up and coming manager would be ideal having not seen one here ever - however as was the case last time round the fans wont be appeased by an up and coming manager but will only want a huge manager or a sentimental one.

Fair bit fundamentally wrong with the bit in bold, Wenger and Fergie werent employed with a particular structure bandied in front of them, at pompey Redknapp had a DoF appointed over his head and he quit accordingly. The same definitely cant be said of keegan, he knew the direction, he knew the new structure and when the going got tough he backed out at the worst possible time, this whole thing in my opinion has come withihn the last few days starting with Milner, that to me suggests that he was tolerable of alot of what was happening previously, he was happy to admit that he didnt know about Guttirez but was pleased but when a few things didnt go his way in an extremely short period of time things quickly turned sour for him. I just dont see the action that he's taken to be equaliative to the issues which have literally arisen within the last few days, starting with Milner. Happy, with Colo and Guttirez and Guthrie and Bassong - recruitement apparently out of his hands at this point. Unhappy with Milner going for extortionate price and us signing Xisco and Nacho - time to resign? Just doesnt add up - HOWEVER id like to say that despite all this i DO believe theres a big elelemnt of repsoiblity whihc needs to be attributed to Ashley and Co - together all 4/5 of them have f***ed this club royally for the forseeable future. No, sorry, but you're wrong. The club have told us time and time again that KK has final say on any transfers. It is clearly obvious that was a lie and there's every chance KK was under exactly the same impression until this late stage of the window when things started getting tight. The fact that the signings have looked good (so far) is irrelevant. There is a reason why the manager gets paid more than the chief scout. Spotting a good player from an Argentinian international (not that Jonas wasnt a good find) is much much easier than managing a Premier League club successfully. Hold ya horses there...thats something that Keegan has reiterated himself. Not just the club as your implying. In fact, Keegan must of known it was a lie the second Jonas was signed - whats the deal then? He seemed happy to me then - even admitting that it wasnt him who signed him, he didnt need to say Milner was sold by him but he did....why? if your fundamental priciples are being undermined by the superiors? Why is it that he's happy to have Jonas sign, no quitting even though he's been apprently lied to, but when Xisco and Nacho are signed, all of a sudden he';s having "players forced upon him" Not quite adding up there, Wullie.

bit of a straw man argument as you seem to think people assume keegan has no flaws. but that's wrong - the keegan that nufc fans love is the one that made the "i'd Love it if we beat them, love it" statement, the one we know is emotional and wears his heart on his sleeve. it is this passion and the desire to challenge things head on that has partly caused this situation. people arent denying that - they're just looking at it a bit more deeply than you are and looking at what caused keegan to go head to head with llambias, rather than just focusing on the act of confrontation itself as if it existed in a vacuum - without very real problems and underlying issues that, i presume, still exist at the club and will be probably be causing the new man the exact same problems 8 months down the line. similar problems have caused Curbishley to walk out at west ham, or Mourinho to leave Chelsea, or Redknapp to leave Southampton. Exactly. I don't think KK doesn't have any flaws, he has many and some of them are what make him great but when I see him on the touchline, even when N'Zogbia is at left back or when Damien Duff is allowed to be alive, I support him because no matter what, I always, always believe that he is doing what he feels is best for NUFC. He doesn't let personal stuff get in the way of what he feels is the best thing for the club, he doesn't pick certain players to prove a point and he doesn't let his headstrong attitude ever get in the way of the football club. I can't say that about any other manager I've seen at NUFC (even Sir Bobby, bless him). He also happens to be a f***ing good manager who plays football the way it should be played. If Arsenal forced Wenger out tomorrow, or Man Utd Fergie, their fans would be just as livid as we are. It's not a case of supporting KK, it's a case of wanting the best man for the job and for me that was KK. If he'd been doing a s*** job and had to go, fair enough, but to see him leave for non-footballing reasons, forced out by people who couldn't give a f*** about the club, leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth. Ironic that we spoke to Redknapp in January too, as you say Johnny. He also left Pompey because of that Croatian bloke in the background, now he's come back, gets to buy his own players and he's doing a far superior job to first time round. Funny that isn't it? Fair bit fundamentally wrong with the bit in bold, Wenger and Fergie werent employed with a particular structure bandied in front of them, at pompey Redknapp had a DoF appointed over his head and he quit accordingly. The same definitely cant be said of keegan, he knew the direction, he knew the new structure and when the going got tough he backed out at the worst possible time, this whole thing in my opinion has come withihn the last few days starting with Milner, that to me suggests that he was tolerable of alot of what was happening previously, he was happy to admit that he didnt know about Guttirez but was pleased but when a few things didnt go his way in an extremely short period of time things quickly turned sour for him. I just dont see the action that he's taken to be equaliative to the issues which have literally arisen within the last few days, starting with Milner. Happy, with Colo and Guttirez and Guthrie and Bassong - recruitement apparently out of his hands at this point. Unhappy with Milner going for extortionate price and us signing Xisco and Nacho - time to resign? Just doesnt add up - HOWEVER id like to say that despite all this i DO believe theres a big elelemnt of repsoiblity whihc needs to be attributed to Ashley and Co - together all 4/5 of them have fucked this club royally for the forseeable future.