Is Sam the Man?

[Guest Sniffer]

Ever thought that people are concerned about what they are seeing in these 12 games.........?

[NE5]

 

Allardyce better hope something clicks into place pretty soon because if it does it will be more down to luck than judgment.

The standard of football this season has been dire. I'm looking beyond the results and the opposition and looking at the performances of the team. Even when we have won it's been pretty uninspiring, turgid fare. You can get the run of the green and win a few games playing shite football but long term you will be found out. I would be prepared to give Allardyce time if I could see even the tiniest glimpse of improvement over the last two chumps or something that perhaps we could build on. I've seen absolutely nothing yet and this is with a team often comprising of 6/7 of "his" players.

 

To me this a case of the emperor's new clothes, he is getting cut a lot of slack because he is supposedly a progressive manager who employs innovative training methods and fitness techniques. I'll give him to Christmas and if there is no improvement I seriously doubt he has what it takes to take this club forward. If that is the case why bother wasting millions on him constructing a functional, one dimensional team in the image of his Bolton teams. At the moment I can't see much difference between Souness, Roeder and Allardyce. If you disagree consider the last game before Souness took over when we played Blackburn and turned them over at St James' 3-0. Look how far we have fallen since then, look at our recent shots ratio and our failure to even string together half a dozen passes.

 

All this talk - from last season in particular - about needing new defenders was bollocks. You are right, look back at that blackburn game. Have we ever dominated and forced a game like that ever since ? Maybe one or two of Roeders first games ie Pompey, but thats all.

This is how good teams play, they play controlled possession football. When you do that, you aren't giving the ball away and are forcing the pace of the game. It's amazing how people can't see this, when they have been shown it. When you give the ball away and spend the entire game forced backwards, you will NEVER look secure at the back. You need talented players, able to show their talent by passing and moving, with a positive attitude and belief that they will win, playing to win. Playing like this you beat the teams with lesser players and slug it out cat and mouse with the other top teams.

 

I thought Allardyce would have had it in him to adapt his previous methods and play like other top teams have shown the way, but I'm now having big doubts. I don't support getting rid of him just yet, but thats because I'm still hoping that he is capable of it.

 

 

[ohmelads]

It's worrying that 27% of our fans already deem him to be not 'the man'. And all this after only 12 games. Have some faith!

 

How many of that 27% already thought he wasn't 'the man' before any games were played? You make it sound like they all changed their mind after 12 games, but I reckon most of them didn't want him in the first place, or were at least sceptical over his ability to take on a totally different challenge.

 

Suggesting people are fickle or lack faith is common in football but it ignores the point that most people who call for a manager to be sacked usually didn't want him there in the first place. When people called for Souness to be sacked they were labelled fickle, but they were only saying the same stuff they had said from day one, which is totally the opposite to 'fickle', as any dictionary will confirm. It was the same thing when Roeder went. If people thought Sam wasn't the right appointment back in the summer and they still stand by their opinions then there's nothing wrong with that, these people only want what's best for the club and they want to see it left in the best hands possible.

 

I've never liked Allardyce, in fact I couldn't stand him when he was at Bolton, but I tried to be philosophical when he came here. He's a big step up on Roeder and maybe he can adapt to the different challenges that will face him here. Maybe not. I'll certainly give him time, it'd be a disgrace to sack him before next summer unless we are staring at relegation, but I won't back him to the hilt based on some misguided loyalty to a manager. My loyalty lies with the club, always has and always will. People talk about the manager having the reigns as if it's a right, but it's a privilege. You take the job and you earn the respect and even the loyalty of the fans. That's what every top manager has had to do, I don't see why Allardyce should be any different.

[Taylor Swift]

Touche oml, this thread (link below) shows that you've made a good point.

 

http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=39644.0;viewResults

 

Still, we must give him time. He deserves it, and the new owners have a right to expect that we show some patience. A lot of things have changed in about 6 months, yet somehow I get the feeling that some people are still as unhappy as they were during the last couple of seasons. Mort deserves the chance to show that him and Ashley will back Sam, and Sam deserves at least this season and the next to show that he can a) bring in the right players, and b) change his attitude regarding away games. A season is really not enough time imo, so unless we're staring at relegation, a top 10 finish this season will hopefully mean SA will get the next season to truly show that he's changed the club.

 

PS. This thread (link below) shows that there have been a certain group of fans who have already changed their minds about BS.

 

http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=39373.0;viewResults

[Keefaz]

FWIW, I don't think there's any point in trying to judge Allardyce until the end of the season. In fact, preferably the end of the 2008-09 season, really. I know we all enjoy a good whinge, but seriously, when it comes to the crunch, I think we've got to stick to the plan for a change. Let's give him a decent crack at the job.

[Dr Venkman]

what the fuck are you lot on about man? 12 games for fucks sake! 12. fucking. games. get a grip.

[ChezGiven]

 

Allardyce better hope something clicks into place pretty soon because if it does it will be more down to luck than judgment.

The standard of football this season has been dire. I'm looking beyond the results and the opposition and looking at the performances of the team. Even when we have won it's been pretty uninspiring, turgid fare. You can get the run of the green and win a few games playing shite football but long term you will be found out. I would be prepared to give Allardyce time if I could see even the tiniest glimpse of improvement over the last two chumps or something that perhaps we could build on. I've seen absolutely nothing yet and this is with a team often comprising of 6/7 of "his" players.

 

To me this a case of the emperor's new clothes, he is getting cut a lot of slack because he is supposedly a progressive manager who employs innovative training methods and fitness techniques. I'll give him to Christmas and if there is no improvement I seriously doubt he has what it takes to take this club forward. If that is the case why bother wasting millions on him constructing a functional, one dimensional team in the image of his Bolton teams. At the moment I can't see much difference between Souness, Roeder and Allardyce. If you disagree consider the last game before Souness took over when we played Blackburn and turned them over at St James' 3-0. Look how far we have fallen since then, look at our recent shots ratio and our failure to even string together half a dozen passes.

 

All this talk - from last season in particular - about needing new defenders was bollocks. You are right, look back at that blackburn game. Have we ever dominated and forced a game like that ever since ? Maybe one or two of Roeders first games ie Pompey, but thats all.

This is how good teams play, they play controlled possession football. When you do that, you aren't giving the ball away and are forcing the pace of the game. It's amazing how people can't see this, when they have been shown it. When you give the ball away and spend the entire game forced backwards, you will NEVER look secure at the back. You need talented players, able to show their talent by passing and moving, with a positive attitude and belief that they will win, playing to win. Playing like this you beat the teams with lesser players and slug it out cat and mouse with the other top teams.

 

I thought Allardyce would have had it in him to adapt his previous methods and play like other top teams have shown the way, but I'm now having big doubts. I don't support getting rid of him just yet, but thats because I'm still hoping that he is capable of it.

 

 

Maybe Allardyce doesnt play like that as he realises the players he has arent good enough to play that way. Hence the approach he is taking.

 

If you over-estimate the quality of the players on the park you are bound to under-estimate the ability of the manager too.

[Guest Sniffer]

Allardyce bought them.

[ChezGiven]

Inspector Geremi strkes again.

[Guest Sniffer]

You never make much sense to me.

[ChezGiven]

Not following closely enough obviously.

[johnnypd]

 

Allardyce better hope something clicks into place pretty soon because if it does it will be more down to luck than judgment.

The standard of football this season has been dire. I'm looking beyond the results and the opposition and looking at the performances of the team. Even when we have won it's been pretty uninspiring, turgid fare. You can get the run of the green and win a few games playing shite football but long term you will be found out. I would be prepared to give Allardyce time if I could see even the tiniest glimpse of improvement over the last two chumps or something that perhaps we could build on. I've seen absolutely nothing yet and this is with a team often comprising of 6/7 of "his" players.

 

To me this a case of the emperor's new clothes, he is getting cut a lot of slack because he is supposedly a progressive manager who employs innovative training methods and fitness techniques. I'll give him to Christmas and if there is no improvement I seriously doubt he has what it takes to take this club forward. If that is the case why bother wasting millions on him constructing a functional, one dimensional team in the image of his Bolton teams. At the moment I can't see much difference between Souness, Roeder and Allardyce. If you disagree consider the last game before Souness took over when we played Blackburn and turned them over at St James' 3-0. Look how far we have fallen since then, look at our recent shots ratio and our failure to even string together half a dozen passes.

 

All this talk - from last season in particular - about needing new defenders was bollocks. You are right, look back at that blackburn game. Have we ever dominated and forced a game like that ever since ? Maybe one or two of Roeders first games ie Pompey, but thats all.

This is how good teams play, they play controlled possession football. When you do that, you aren't giving the ball away and are forcing the pace of the game. It's amazing how people can't see this, when they have been shown it. When you give the ball away and spend the entire game forced backwards, you will NEVER look secure at the back. You need talented players, able to show their talent by passing and moving, with a positive attitude and belief that they will win, playing to win. Playing like this you beat the teams with lesser players and slug it out cat and mouse with the other top teams.

 

I thought Allardyce would have had it in him to adapt his previous methods and play like other top teams have shown the way, but I'm now having big doubts. I don't support getting rid of him just yet, but thats because I'm still hoping that he is capable of it.

 

 

 

while i agree that any team needs quality upfield to control a game, the fact is we did need defenders and did need to pad out a very thin squad, which for various reasons was the legacy of Roeder and Souness. we only had one senior centre-half at the club in Taylor so it is an undeniable fact that we needed to bring in 2 or 3, and only had Carr and Babayaro as full-backs so we needed to bring in two or more. In midfield we only had Butt and Emre so had to strengthen there too. the quality in all the positions might not be top-class but they're all, with the possible exception of Smith as a midfielder, decent players and will do the job. Sam's next step is to buy some genuine talent for the creative positions. Perhaps he should've done this in the summer and like Sven gone for someone like Elano, while losing Dyer and Solano has left us temporarily short, but i can accept that for a few months if in the long-term we get in the calibre of player we need. if we're in February and still having this discussion then it is time to be worried.

[Mick]

It's worrying that 27% of our fans already deem him to be not 'the man'. And all this after only 12 games. Have some faith!

 

How many of that 27% already thought he wasn't 'the man' before any games were played? You make it sound like they all changed their mind after 12 games, but I reckon most of them didn't want him in the first place, or were at least sceptical over his ability to take on a totally different challenge.

 

Suggesting people are fickle or lack faith is common in football but it ignores the point that most people who call for a manager to be sacked usually didn't want him there in the first place. When people called for Souness to be sacked they were labelled fickle, but they were only saying the same stuff they had said from day one, which is totally the opposite to 'fickle', as any dictionary will confirm. It was the same thing when Roeder went. If people thought Sam wasn't the right appointment back in the summer and they still stand by their opinions then there's nothing wrong with that, these people only want what's best for the club and they want to see it left in the best hands possible.

 

I've never liked Allardyce, in fact I couldn't stand him when he was at Bolton, but I tried to be philosophical when he came here. He's a big step up on Roeder and maybe he can adapt to the different challenges that will face him here. Maybe not. I'll certainly give him time, it'd be a disgrace to sack him before next summer unless we are staring at relegation, but I won't back him to the hilt based on some misguided loyalty to a manager. My loyalty lies with the club, always has and always will. People talk about the manager having the reigns as if it's a right, but it's a privilege. You take the job and you earn the respect and even the loyalty of the fans. That's what every top manager has had to do, I don't see why Allardyce should be any different.

 

Good post ohmelads, I agree with it all.

 

I'll not back anybody just to get brownie points, if I think something is wrong I'll say so regardless of who agrees or not.  I care more for the club than I do for any individual and that goes for the lot of them, from the man at the top to the bog cleaner, if anybody doesn’t like it, tough shit.

 

[Mick]

FWIW, I don't think there's any point in trying to judge Allardyce until the end of the season. In fact, preferably the end of the 2008-09 season, really. I know we all enjoy a good whinge, but seriously, when it comes to the crunch, I think we've got to stick to the plan for a change. Let's give him a decent crack at the job.

 

I agree that the time to judge him is the end of the season, unless things go really bad.  I don't think he should get another year if he's still coming up with his strange tactics and team selections without getting results, for me he's got to show that he's worth sticking with.  I don't think he should be given a second season just for the sake of it.

[Guest Dev]

I would trust him to spend the money, no-one could accuse him of being a mug in the transfer market or of not being able to attract quality players. I think Ashley should let him spend what he wants in January. Tactically we will see by the end of the season whether he is the man or not.

[merlin]

 

Allardyce better hope something clicks into place pretty soon because if it does it will be more down to luck than judgment.

The standard of football this season has been dire. I'm looking beyond the results and the opposition and looking at the performances of the team. Even when we have won it's been pretty uninspiring, turgid fare. You can get the run of the green and win a few games playing s**** football but long term you will be found out. I would be prepared to give Allardyce time if I could see even the tiniest glimpse of improvement over the last two chumps or something that perhaps we could build on. I've seen absolutely nothing yet and this is with a team often comprising of 6/7 of "his" players.

 

To me this a case of the emperor's new clothes, he is getting cut a lot of slack because he is supposedly a progressive manager who employs innovative training methods and fitness techniques. I'll give him to Christmas and if there is no improvement I seriously doubt he has what it takes to take this club forward. If that is the case why bother wasting millions on him constructing a functional, one dimensional team in the image of his Bolton teams. At the moment I can't see much difference between Souness, Roeder and Allardyce. If you disagree consider the last game before Souness took over when we played Blackburn and turned them over at St James' 3-0. Look how far we have fallen since then, look at our recent shots ratio and our failure to even string together half a dozen passes.

 

All this talk - from last season in particular - about needing new defenders was bollocks. You are right, look back at that blackburn game. Have we ever dominated and forced a game like that ever since ? Maybe one or two of Roeders first games ie Pompey, but thats all.

This is how good teams play, they play controlled possession football. When you do that, you aren't giving the ball away and are forcing the pace of the game. It's amazing how people can't see this, when they have been shown it. When you give the ball away and spend the entire game forced backwards, you will NEVER look secure at the back. You need talented players, able to show their talent by passing and moving, with a positive attitude and belief that they will win, playing to win. Playing like this you beat the teams with lesser players and slug it out cat and mouse with the other top teams.

 

I thought Allardyce would have had it in him to adapt his previous methods and play like other top teams have shown the way, but I'm now having big doubts. I don't support getting rid of him just yet, but thats because I'm still hoping that he is capable of it.

 

 

 

I don't always agree with you NE5, but on this occasion, we are(almost) as one..!

Whilst I disagree that we didn't need new defenders - Bramble for one was clearly not good enough consistently - I agree totally with your analysis of the style of play.

People may remember that one of the things I have constantly been complaining about over the season is the number of times we give the ball away, inviting pressure back on our defence as you say, and the lack of movement from players off the ball ; there have been at least 2 occasions where this has been disastrous, once at Man City where Taylor was hurried into an error by being given the ball in an unnecessarily-tight situation, and again at SJP against Pompey where we lost possession in midfield after a bad pass and Cacapa was placed in a one-against-one which resulted in the second goal against..

There was also a similar incident caused by a hurried pass from Faye which led to the Mackems' goal.

 

The point is that the players are not confident with passing/possession football - either that, or they are not practicing this in training because the coaching staff either don't promote it or are told NOT to promote it.....

Keeping possession is not easy  - it requires effort, skill on the ball, good movement off it(players have to be fit in order to be able to keep it going for 90 mins) - and most of all - PRACTICE.

Long-Ball football IS lazy in comparison ; it means abdicating responsibility by just whacking the ball upfield

even if there is time to find a colleague in space ; it is also 'percentage' football in that you have in most cases, no better than a 50% chance of your team-mate receiving the pass, and in the case of our current side(Owen & Martins being prime examples)the forwards have LESS than a 50% chance of controlling such a ball.

Long-ball football is also bad to watch, which is why so many fans are complaining about what they see...

 

I am not saying that there is not a place in the game for whacking the ball away - clearly, in very tight situations in defence, there is - but to play it all the time will not result in success over a long period.

 

Nobody on this board can tell us of a side who have consistently won trophies playing this way - Wimbledon managed it against Liverpool in the FA Cup, and then vanished into obscurity ; Greece did something similar in the Euro Champs in 2004, then failed to qualify for the WC in 06.

 

Most tellingly, Bolton have won NOWT playing that way and only qualified for the UEFA Cup twice...

 

We are NOT Bolton - we are also not yet Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool - but who should we be attempting to emulate with the resources available to the Manager of Newcastle United, and what is more, which way should we be trying to play..

You need VARIETY of style to compete with whatever strengths the opposition have, and sometimes you have to compromise - but in the main, surrendering possession is NOT going to bring success.

 

As for relying on January to bring relief - forget it.

Unless we are very fortunate, the type of players we need are unlikely to be available until the summer.

As I have said before, I think it unlikely that there will be any managerial change until then, but a flirtation with the bottom 4 by Christmas could change things - time will tell.The Jury is still out, but the time for the verdict is getting closer....

[Northern Monkey]

No, clearly he is not the man. Look at his signings, they've not been great by any stretch of the imagination.

 

But there will still be the fans who cling to the belief that because he is employed by Newcastle United (as with a number of our first team players) that he is somehow good enough, and that glory is only a bit of luck away.

 

Its all very well saying "have some faith", and yes, he's better than Roeder (liek being stabbed is better than being shot), but there is little point in having faith in something that is not going to work - showing blind faith does not make you a better fan, it just makes you less realistic.

 

Are the players he had or has brought in top class ? No. One or two have top class attributes but none of our players are complete players, they either lack pace, brains or technique.

 

Could he have attracted better players? Maybe, but its not likely since as you pointed out so much last season, we were utter shite. If the faithful think we're shite, why would a top class professional not think the same thing? There are lots of reasons players targetted by the manager didnt come here, players that would have improved this squad.

 

Does he have a track record of getting average sides to perform? Yes. In which case, given the assessment of the players, how come he isnt the right man?

 

You cant have it both ways, if the players are as shite as you say they are, stop expecting miracles. I agree our players arent good enough and i'm realistic about who we can attract. You do need to follow that to the only logical conclusion that a manager with a good track record in getting the best out of only half-decent / average players needs at least a bit of time to implement what has clearly been successful before.

 

We didnt exactly flex any financial muscles over the summer. If we do spend big and things dont look that different after that, then i will be inclined to agree with you.

 

If he spends "big" on the type of players he's brought in so far, we're wasting money.

 

Who has he signed so far?

 

Viduka - Not great, but ok as a one season stop gap. At least it means Shola isn't playing.

Barton - Would have been worth it for half the cost. Overrated.

Rozenhal - Looks like he could be a good one.

Geremi - Past it. Passing often poor, no pace. Should never have been made captain, shoudl have been a sub at best.

Smith - Not a good midfielder, bad striker. Waste of money.

Cacapa - Teh player to teach Taylor? Tell that to Pompey.

Enrique - Liking him. Stupidly dropped by the manager.

Faye - Seems alright by and large, decent squad player.

Beye - Not done anything to show he's that good, apart from not being Carr.

 

Around £25m spent?

 

My point is that Allardyce was at his level with Bolton, and yes, he's better than Roeder/Souness, but thats a default position for most decent managers. Is he good enough to entrench us in the top 5? Not from what i've seen so far. He's not new to the league, but you wouldn't know that with his tactics and team selections.

[ChezGiven]

We are NOT Bolton - we are also not yet Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool - but who should we be attempting to emulate with the resources available to the Manager of Newcastle United, and what is more, which way should we be trying to play..

 

The current resource available to the manager of Newcastle United are the current squad of players, nothing more nothing less. To answer your question directly, Portsmouth, Blackburn, Man City.

 

As for relying on January to bring relief - forget it.

Unless we are very fortunate, the type of players we need are unlikely to be available until the summer.

As I have said before, I think it unlikely that there will be any managerial change until then, but a flirtation with the bottom 4 by Christmas could change things - time will tell.The Jury is still out, but the time for the verdict is getting closer....

 

Then you'll need to wait until next season before we can judge him properly then, as if he has no chance of improving this squad in January we're not going to get up to too much this season.

[Guest ChickenKiev]

Sam's "tactics" are appalling! We should have gone for Sven when we had the chance.

[ChezGiven]

No, clearly he is not the man. Look at his signings, they've not been great by any stretch of the imagination.

 

But there will still be the fans who cling to the belief that because he is employed by Newcastle United (as with a number of our first team players) that he is somehow good enough, and that glory is only a bit of luck away.

 

Its all very well saying "have some faith", and yes, he's better than Roeder (liek being stabbed is better than being shot), but there is little point in having faith in something that is not going to work - showing blind faith does not make you a better fan, it just makes you less realistic.

 

Are the players he had or has brought in top class ? No. One or two have top class attributes but none of our players are complete players, they either lack pace, brains or technique.

 

Could he have attracted better players? Maybe, but its not likely since as you pointed out so much last season, we were utter shite. If the faithful think we're shite, why would a top class professional not think the same thing? There are lots of reasons players targetted by the manager didnt come here, players that would have improved this squad.

 

Does he have a track record of getting average sides to perform? Yes. In which case, given the assessment of the players, how come he isnt the right man?

 

You cant have it both ways, if the players are as shite as you say they are, stop expecting miracles. I agree our players arent good enough and i'm realistic about who we can attract. You do need to follow that to the only logical conclusion that a manager with a good track record in getting the best out of only half-decent / average players needs at least a bit of time to implement what has clearly been successful before.

 

We didnt exactly flex any financial muscles over the summer. If we do spend big and things dont look that different after that, then i will be inclined to agree with you.

 

If he spends "big" on the type of players he's brought in so far, we're wasting money.

 

My point is that Allardyce was at his level with Bolton, and yes, he's better than Roeder/Souness, but thats a default position for most decent managers. Is he good enough to entrench us in the top 5? Not from what i've seen so far. He's not new to the league, but you wouldn't know that with his tactics and team selections.

 

I think Baggio expressed it better in the other thread, i dont think they are that great signings either.

 

http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=46809.msg1071777#msg1071777

 

How long do you think it will take for him to entrench us in the top 5 if he was good enough? Bit more than 12 games i'm thinking.

[Guest Brewcastle]

When it's 12 games, and none of them have included the big teams we want and shall copare NUFC with, the results are far to weak. But wat worries me most is the way the loss of points have happened.

[merlin]

We are NOT Bolton - we are also not yet Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool - but who should we be attempting to emulate with the resources available to the Manager of Newcastle United, and what is more, which way should we be trying to play..

 

The current resource available to the manager of Newcastle United are the current squad of players, nothing more nothing less. To answer your question directly, Portsmouth, Blackburn, Man City.

 

As for relying on January to bring relief - forget it.

Unless we are very fortunate, the type of players we need are unlikely to be available until the summer.

As I have said before, I think it unlikely that there will be any managerial change until then, but a flirtation with the bottom 4 by Christmas could change things - time will tell.The Jury is still out, but the time for the verdict is getting closer....

 

Then you'll need to wait until next season before we can judge him properly then, as if he has no chance of improving this squad in January we're not going to get up to too much this season.

 

Many of the current squad ARE his choices, so he lives or dies by them.

 

As to your second point, the directors/fans have to decide whether a different manager would have got better performances from the players available - at the end of the day, that is the nub of the whole matter.

The fact that the players to improve the side may not be available in January is one that an experienced manager should take into account - you are actually saying that by stating that Allardyce cannot therefore be judged until the FOLLOWING January, we should write off a whole season, even if there is no progress on last year.

 

Also, some of the teams you have quoted(Blackburn, Man C & Pompey)do NOT have the potential that NUFC has as a 'Big' club -  their fans(with the poss exception of City)do bot have the same expectations which is why I quoted Arsenal etc. I am well aware that Blackburn et al are currently better than us, but they are NOT(and never will be)the benchmark for us to aim for...

[Parky]

 

Allardyce better hope something clicks into place pretty soon because if it does it will be more down to luck than judgment.

The standard of football this season has been dire. I'm looking beyond the results and the opposition and looking at the performances of the team. Even when we have won it's been pretty uninspiring, turgid fare. You can get the run of the green and win a few games playing s**** football but long term you will be found out. I would be prepared to give Allardyce time if I could see even the tiniest glimpse of improvement over the last two chumps or something that perhaps we could build on. I've seen absolutely nothing yet and this is with a team often comprising of 6/7 of "his" players.

 

To me this a case of the emperor's new clothes, he is getting cut a lot of slack because he is supposedly a progressive manager who employs innovative training methods and fitness techniques. I'll give him to Christmas and if there is no improvement I seriously doubt he has what it takes to take this club forward. If that is the case why bother wasting millions on him constructing a functional, one dimensional team in the image of his Bolton teams. At the moment I can't see much difference between Souness, Roeder and Allardyce. If you disagree consider the last game before Souness took over when we played Blackburn and turned them over at St James' 3-0. Look how far we have fallen since then, look at our recent shots ratio and our failure to even string together half a dozen passes.

 

All this talk - from last season in particular - about needing new defenders was bollocks. You are right, look back at that blackburn game. Have we ever dominated and forced a game like that ever since ? Maybe one or two of Roeders first games ie Pompey, but thats all.

This is how good teams play, they play controlled possession football. When you do that, you aren't giving the ball away and are forcing the pace of the game. It's amazing how people can't see this, when they have been shown it. When you give the ball away and spend the entire game forced backwards, you will NEVER look secure at the back. You need talented players, able to show their talent by passing and moving, with a positive attitude and belief that they will win, playing to win. Playing like this you beat the teams with lesser players and slug it out cat and mouse with the other top teams.

 

I thought Allardyce would have had it in him to adapt his previous methods and play like other top teams have shown the way, but I'm now having big doubts. I don't support getting rid of him just yet, but thats because I'm still hoping that he is capable of it.

 

 

 

I don't always agree with you NE5, but on this occasion, we are(almost) as one..!

Whilst I disagree that we didn't need new defenders - Bramble for one was clearly not good enough consistently - I agree totally with your analysis of the style of play.

People may remember that one of the things I have constantly been complaining about over the season is the number of times we give the ball away, inviting pressure back on our defence as you say, and the lack of movement from players off the ball ; there have been at least 2 occasions where this has been disastrous, once at Man City where Taylor was hurried into an error by being given the ball in an unnecessarily-tight situation, and again at SJP against Pompey where we lost possession in midfield after a bad pass and Cacapa was placed in a one-against-one which resulted in the second goal against..

There was also a similar incident caused by a hurried pass from Faye which led to the Mackems' goal.

 

The point is that the players are not confident with passing/possession football - either that, or they are not practicing this in training because the coaching staff either don't promote it or are told NOT to promote it.....

Keeping possession is not easy  - it requires effort, skill on the ball, good movement off it(players have to be fit in order to be able to keep it going for 90 mins) - and most of all - PRACTICE.

Long-Ball football IS lazy in comparison ; it means abdicating responsibility by just whacking the ball upfield

even if there is time to find a colleague in space ; it is also 'percentage' football in that you have in most cases, no better than a 50% chance of your team-mate receiving the pass, and in the case of our current side(Owen & Martins being prime examples)the forwards have LESS than a 50% chance of controlling such a ball.

Long-ball football is also bad to watch, which is why so many fans are complaining about what they see...

 

I am not saying that there is not a place in the game for whacking the ball away - clearly, in very tight situations in defence, there is - but to play it all the time will not result in success over a long period.

 

Nobody on this board can tell us of a side who have consistently won trophies playing this way - Wimbledon managed it against Liverpool in the FA Cup, and then vanished into obscurity ; Greece did something similar in the Euro Champs in 2004, then failed to qualify for the WC in 06.

 

Most tellingly, Bolton have won NOWT playing that way and only qualified for the UEFA Cup twice...

 

We are NOT Bolton - we are also not yet Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool - but who should we be attempting to emulate with the resources available to the Manager of Newcastle United, and what is more, which way should we be trying to play..

You need VARIETY of style to compete with whatever strengths the opposition have, and sometimes you have to compromise - but in the main, surrendering possession is NOT going to bring success.

 

As for relying on January to bring relief - forget it.

Unless we are very fortunate, the type of players we need are unlikely to be available until the summer.

As I have said before, I think it unlikely that there will be any managerial change until then, but a flirtation with the bottom 4 by Christmas could change things - time will tell.The Jury is still out, but the time for the verdict is getting closer....

 

To me it's glaringly obvious. Round, Pearson AND Allardyce are all defensive coaches. There is no balance in the coaching. Two of thme are former CD's ffs!

[ChezGiven]

We are NOT Bolton - we are also not yet Arsenal, Man U, Liverpool - but who should we be attempting to emulate with the resources available to the Manager of Newcastle United, and what is more, which way should we be trying to play..

 

The current resource available to the manager of Newcastle United are the current squad of players, nothing more nothing less. To answer your question directly, Portsmouth, Blackburn, Man City.

 

As for relying on January to bring relief - forget it.

Unless we are very fortunate, the type of players we need are unlikely to be available until the summer.

As I have said before, I think it unlikely that there will be any managerial change until then, but a flirtation with the bottom 4 by Christmas could change things - time will tell.The Jury is still out, but the time for the verdict is getting closer....

 

Then you'll need to wait until next season before we can judge him properly then, as if he has no chance of improving this squad in January we're not going to get up to too much this season.

 

Many of the current squad ARE his choices, so he lives or dies by them.

 

 

Look at the linked post above. Are you seriously saying that as well as providing the strength and depth to the squad that was clearly neccessary (and dont forget him missing out on a number of better players) that he should have also added players of the calibre of Rooney, Tevez, Ronaldo, Drogba, Torres, Fabregas etc. Thats what we need if you want to have the top 4 as a benhcmark.

 

How exactly was he have meant to do that given that players like Ben Haim didnt even fancy it and he was a player of Allardyce's? Walk me through what he should have done...

 

Those purchases were part of a building job. Only Beye, Geremi and Smith are not coming up to people's expectations but they were useful additions to a paper thin squad. 

 

Sorry, given the current resources available to the manager (your words) Blackburn are our benchmark for now. Unless someone else other than our players are going to play for us against Liverpool?

[KaKa]

It really is a sad situation ... I mean why can't we pass the ball? Forget the likes of Blackburn and Portsmouth who are well ahead of us at the moment, even West Ham and Middlesborough pass the ball around better than we do, and generally play better football.  This really is unacceptable.

 

Sam's position for now shouldn't be in danger and we should give him time to adjust and come to terms with the new position he is in. However, if things are still as they are now by the end of the season then his time might be up.

 

I am sincerely hoping that his plans were severely hindered byt he summer of upheaval and so he focused on securing the basic necessities first i.e. squad depth and players who could keep things tight and tide us over till January. Come January I am hoping for a higher class of player who can then allow us to begin to establish a more balanced and better brand of football which should get us better results.

 

I live in hope ...