4-3-3 will improve us

[TRon]

I read a commentary by Sir Les the other day where he was saying that 4-3-3 is the way to go, but that Martins is completely unsuited to it.  His main point was that Martins didn't have the discipline required to maintain the formation as he constantly drifts in to the middle of the field collapsing the formation and interfering with the centre-forward's function.  I think he's right.

 

I think 4-3-3 could work very well, if we stick to it, and if we ditch Martins (no doubt a good talent, but highly inconsistent).  I have been wondering how we'd go with such a formation fronted by:  Smith - Viduka - Owen.  With Viduka acting as a holding guy, he can act as a target man for the mid field and defence, passing forward, Owen and Smith then have time to find positions coming in to their respective goal posts and Viduka can slot a pass through to whichever one is in the better position.  I think this plays to all of their strengths, Viduka being excellent at holding possession in the area, Smith and Owen both being reasonably good at finding spaces and executing reflex shots at goal.

 

If Smith, Viduka and Owen were the front three, the defenders would have time for a cuppa and a quick snooze and still catch up with the play before any real damage was done.

 

 

[Offshore]

Sam has a preference for 4-3-3 but has the players that are more suited (limited?) to 4-4-2. He does try to make them play 4-3-3 but to me they look uncomfortable trying to play that way. So 4-4-2 for me please.

[Guest bobblyrage]

We can't play 4-3-3 with Martins or Owen in the team as neither is suited to it, yet these are the only two players we have capable of scoring in the league regularily. For me Martins or Owen has to play, and play upfront otherwise we just dont have a good enough goalscoring threat.

 

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

[Mick]

We can't play 4-3-3 with Martins or Owen in the team as neither is suited to it, yet these are the only two players we have capable of scoring in the league regularily. For me Martins or Owen has to play, and play upfront otherwise we just dont have a good enough goalscoring threat.

 

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

 

I think Allardyce had an ideal player for this formation in Anelka.

[Yorkie]

I thought what Sir Les said was a load of rubbish personally. "Every time we've seen 4-3-3 it hasn't worked because..." erm, 7 points from 9.

 

Using 4-3-3, we've picked up points in:

 

Bolton (A), 3-1 win

Aston Villa (H), 0-0 draw

Middlesbrough (A), 2-2 draw

Wigan (H), 1-0 win*

Arsenal (H), 1-1 draw

Birmingham (H), 2-1 win

Fulham (A), 1-0 win

 

Whereas with 4-4-2, we've picked up points against West Ham and Everton. I'm not saying 4-4-2 doesn't work, i'm denying the claim that '4-3-3 doesn't', as it clearly has done. And for me, it's providing us with the strength and resilience, and most importantly the consistency, that we need at the moment.

 

 

 

*Started with 4-4-2, reverted to 4-3-3 whilst score at 0-0 and won the game.

[Yorkie]

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

 

Suicide like against Arsenal, Brum and Fulham?

[TRon]

We can't play 4-3-3 with Martins or Owen in the team as neither is suited to it, yet these are the only two players we have capable of scoring in the league regularily. For me Martins or Owen has to play, and play upfront otherwise we just dont have a good enough goalscoring threat.

 

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

 

I think Allardyce had an ideal player for this formation in Anelka.

 

You are right. Except he plays for Bolton. Another ideal player for this formation would be Drogba. But then he plays for  Chelsea.

 

 

[Guest JamesD]

add eto'o...but he's at barca. A player who can play at the point at 4-3-3 effectively happens to be a very rare commodity, and people like smith and viduka aren't capable.  We do, however, have a pool of strikers which could work well in a 4-4-2.

[Mick]

I thought what Sir Les said was a load of rubbish personally. "Every time we've seen 4-3-3 it hasn't worked because..." erm, 7 points from 9.

 

Using 4-3-3, we've picked up points in:

 

Bolton (A), 3-1 win

Aston Villa (H), 0-0 draw

Middlesbrough (A), 2-2 draw

Wigan (H), 1-0 win*

Arsenal (H), 1-1 draw

Birmingham (H), 2-1 win

Fulham (A), 1-0 win

 

Whereas with 4-4-2, we've picked up points against West Ham and Everton. I'm not saying 4-4-2 doesn't work, i'm denying the claim that '4-3-3 doesn't', as it clearly has done. And for me, it's providing us with the strength and resilience, and most importantly the consistency, that we need at the moment.

 

 

 

*Started with 4-4-2, reverted to 4-3-3 whilst score at 0-0 and won the game.

 

Look at where those teams are, we've took 2 points from the top 7, the others mentioned are from the bottom 7.

[Mick]

 

You are right. Except he plays for Bolton. Another ideal player for this formation would be Drogba. But then he plays for  Chelsea.

 

 

 

I didn't mention Drogba because he'd been mentioned in the post that I replied to.

[TRon]

Well we could always play 4-4-2 successfully if we had Man U's players i'd boldly wager...

[tgarve]

in all honesty, tmonkey is right in saying that if 433 is to work, selling martins and owen is right. however, why not play the players we have in a 442 which will save a hell of a lot of time. for me our strongest side:

 

given

beye  cacapa  faye  enrique

milner  barton  emre  zog

viduka    martins

 

viduka martins! ha, easily has to be smith owen or viduka owen! martins is the complete opposite in maturity in his play to owen

[Guest teepee]

We can't play 4-3-3 with Martins or Owen in the team as neither is suited to it, yet these are the only two players we have capable of scoring in the league regularily. For me Martins or Owen has to play, and play upfront otherwise we just dont have a good enough goalscoring threat.

 

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

 

i disagree with the first bit - i think martins could be very effective in a 4-3-3. his pace and occasional trickery would be beneficial, and he would be able to run onto and flick ons and throughballs. he just needs to settle in the system. with owen i agree - he cimply cannot play in the pl as a lone striker, or as a wide player.

 

on the second point i completely agree - smith simply doesn't score enough goals to be the lone striker/target man, and viduka doesn't seem to be fit enough. this position is crucial in that system, and we need another player in jan or the summer if we want to stick to it. being danish i think bendtner might cut it!

[merlin]

I thought what Sir Les said was a load of rubbish personally. "Every time we've seen 4-3-3 it hasn't worked because..." erm, 7 points from 9.

 

Using 4-3-3, we've picked up points in:

 

Bolton (A), 3-1 win

Aston Villa (H), 0-0 draw

Middlesbrough (A), 2-2 draw

Wigan (H), 1-0 win*

Arsenal (H), 1-1 draw

Birmingham (H), 2-1 win

Fulham (A), 1-0 win

 

Whereas with 4-4-2, we've picked up points against West Ham and Everton. I'm not saying 4-4-2 doesn't work, i'm denying the claim that '4-3-3 doesn't', as it clearly has done. And for me, it's providing us with the strength and resilience, and most importantly the consistency, that we need at the moment.

 

 

 

*Started with 4-4-2, reverted to 4-3-3 whilst score at 0-0 and won the game.

 

Sir Les was stating that MARTINS wasn't suited to 4-3-3, not that the system was no good...

[merlin]

We can't play 4-3-3 with Martins or Owen in the team as neither is suited to it, yet these are the only two players we have capable of scoring in the league regularily. For me Martins or Owen has to play, and play upfront otherwise we just dont have a good enough goalscoring threat.

 

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

 

i disagree with the first bit - i think martins could be very effective in a 4-3-3. his pace and occasional trickery would be beneficial, and he would be able to run onto and flick ons and throughballs. he just needs to settle in the system. with owen i agree - he cimply cannot play in the pl as a lone striker, or as a wide player.

 

on the second point i completely agree - smith simply doesn't score enough goals to be the lone striker/target man, and viduka doesn't seem to be fit enough. this position is crucial in that system, and we need another player in jan or the summer if we want to stick to it. being danish i think bendtner might cut it!

 

One of your comments about Martins was correct - 'his OCCASIONAL trickery'...

That's the problem - its TOO occasional, as is his first touch and anticipation.

[TRon]

We can't play 4-3-3 with Martins or Owen in the team as neither is suited to it, yet these are the only two players we have capable of scoring in the league regularily. For me Martins or Owen has to play, and play upfront otherwise we just dont have a good enough goalscoring threat.

 

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

 

i disagree with the first bit - i think martins could be very effective in a 4-3-3. his pace and occasional trickery would be beneficial, and he would be able to run onto and flick ons and throughballs. he just needs to settle in the system. with owen i agree - he cimply cannot play in the pl as a lone striker, or as a wide player.

 

on the second point i completely agree - smith simply doesn't score enough goals to be the lone striker/target man, and viduka doesn't seem to be fit enough. this position is crucial in that system, and we need another player in jan or the summer if we want to stick to it. being danish i think bendtner might cut it!

 

One of your comments about Martins was correct - 'his OCCASIONAL trickery'...

That's the problem - its TOO occasional, as is his first touch and anticipation.

 

the other problem is the alternatives are unfit or too slow.

[Guest teepee]

We can't play 4-3-3 with Martins or Owen in the team as neither is suited to it, yet these are the only two players we have capable of scoring in the league regularily. For me Martins or Owen has to play, and play upfront otherwise we just dont have a good enough goalscoring threat.

 

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

 

i disagree with the first bit - i think martins could be very effective in a 4-3-3. his pace and occasional trickery would be beneficial, and he would be able to run onto and flick ons and throughballs. he just needs to settle in the system. with owen i agree - he cimply cannot play in the pl as a lone striker, or as a wide player.

 

on the second point i completely agree - smith simply doesn't score enough goals to be the lone striker/target man, and viduka doesn't seem to be fit enough. this position is crucial in that system, and we need another player in jan or the summer if we want to stick to it. being danish i think bendtner might cut it!

 

One of your comments about Martins was correct - 'his OCCASIONAL trickery'...

That's the problem - its TOO occasional, as is his first touch and anticipation.

 

i agree - we dont see et enough.

 

but if we manage to utilise his pace a bit better, getting him to run at defenders from the right side, with zoggy doing the same from the left i think we'd be very dangerous.

[buzza]

When we get Duff back it could make a hell of a difference to our left hand side and we could see jimmy on his "right" side of midfield.

I also think duff would be better suited to 4-3-3 as he is quite disciplined and works enough for it to work... Imagine him and zoggy on one side and beye and milner on the other...heaven!

With all players fit we could:

---------Given---------

Beye---Faye---Cacapa---Zoggy

----Barton---Butt----emre

--Milner-----Owen------Duff

 

Might be a bit attack minded so change emre for geremi or smith...

[danswan]

I think we should stop fucking around with these old systems and bite the bullet and create one of our own. Here's one I created, I call it the 1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1-1.

 

It looks like this:

 

 

                                        1

                                        1

                                        1

                                        1

                                        1

                                        1

                                        1

                                        1

                                        1

                                        1

 

A strong spine.

[Guest shaun11177]

I dont think 433 has been proved at all-10th in the league doesnt really prove anything. We cant prove the alternative works of N'Zogbia left wing/Milner right wing and Enrique at left back because we never play it.

A team without balance will not be successfull in the long run.If Sam wants to play 433 then he has to ditch Owen,Martins because they wont want to play in that system and probably Milner because you need goals from the wide players in the front 3.

As for Martins all this crap about it will teach him this and that,it wont, he is what he is with obvious strengths and weaknesses-play to his strengths.

[Guest bobblyrage]

Also a 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Smith as lone striker is suicide IMO as he cant score at all. The formation only works if your lone/through the middle striker can score bucket loads and is physical, like Drogba/Johnson/Adebayor(this season).

 

Suicide like against Arsenal, Brum and Fulham?

 

Yes, as we created nothing against Fulham or Birmnghsm 2nd half, and when crosses or balls were put into the box Smith was alone in the box and didnt get anywhere near to anything. Our goals in these games are 2 penalties, a header from a defender at a corner, and a defender staying up after a freekick to score. Hardly a massive advert for Smith alone through the middle.

 

Currently when playing 4-3-3 Martins is never in the box. As the most capable (fit) striker, he should be played in the position from which he is going to score the most goals, upfront through the middle, not messing about on the right wing.

[Northern Monkey]

so we're saying that the Fulham game vindicates soemthing? What, the triumph of luck over ability??

 

here's a crazy idea - lets play our best players, IN THEIR BEST positions. I can't recall Fat Sam doing that recently, or indeed much at all.

 

If he persists in trying to fit square pegs into round holes, we're never going to be more than a mid table team, and for me, thats simply not good enough.

[Cronky]

At the top level of international and club football, 4-4-2 with two wingers is beginning to look a bit rigid and predictable. That's what's been holding the England team back a bit. 4-3-2-1 is becoming more popular because it introduces a bit of flexibility.

 

Man U have tended to play 4-4-2 this season, but their wide players and Rooney tend to roam all over the place.

 

English football supporters seem to have a lot of faith in the idea of tricky wingers beating their full back and creating chances by crosses, and that's the idea that drives a lot of the desire for 4-4-2. I don't think Milner and Zoggy are good enough or consistent enough for that to be our main plan, and in any case, we'd be too obvious and easy to counter.

[fredbob]

I dont think we have the squad to play 433, and i think SA has realised that, he said in his Zoo column something along those words. I think the problem with us playin 433 lies with our forward line. Simple as that.

 

I think the problem lies specifically with the wide forwards. For the 433 to be completely effective you need the forwards to be able to double up and become part of a 5 man midfield, while being able to be a sufficient threat in the box, I personally think that Smith could fit that role well, he seems like a very similar player to Diouf, but we also have Duff to return on the left, a player who is already comfortable playing on thw wide left of the fron t 3.

 

This leaves us with Owen and Martins, arguably our most dangerous players, who are completely inneffective in a 433 situation. It also poses a problem for Zog, as he isnt the enough of a threat in the box to warrant a place on the left of the 3 forwards. The same can be said of Milner.

 

This leaves us with 442, which seems like the best formation for our squad. One of the problems though that i think is hindering the 442 is the partnerships that the formation depends of to be effective, For the 442 to be completely effective it needs to be perfectly balanced with all the partnerships working well. The same dependence on partnerships isnt so important in the 433 formation.

 

If SA gets all the balance and partnerships working well then i see no reason to try and change the team around too much.

[fredbob]

 

 

Man U have tended to play 4-4-2 this season, but their wide players and Rooney tend to roam all over the place.

 

Defnintely, they effectively play 424 with there wingers.