I can't see things changing much I'm afraid...

[Guest Knightrider]

Ok, you've established Allardyce is near the top of what is widely regarded an average bunch of British managers...

 

Not by some fans, they'd have Hughes, Moyes or O'Neill here in a shot. Mind 8 months ago they would have had Big Sam here in a shot....

[Rob]

i wouldnt give him anymore money to spend on players until he learns to change his tactics to suit the  players at his disposal... alot of who he bought in the first place... if he had done this earlier i'm sure there would have been alot more positive results.

 

to be honest im sick of all the analysis that is being used by him, im only interested in performance now

 

and im still for him

[UV]

I agree with what I believe is the main point of the OP, ie that we should spend what money we have available on quality (aka "trophy" signings) rather than quantity. I'm just curious about a few things:

 

You defend Allardyce's Summer transfers where he did the exact opposite of what you're now saying, by claiming he "strengthened a very small squad into an average squad". Was this quality wise? - remember, the squad he inherited (minus Bowyer & an ageing Shearer but without Martins & Duff) finished 7th under a combination of Souness & Roeder - or quantity wise? - according to this it's 15 out, 9 in.

 

We finished 7th in 05-06. A position where you would think adding a few quality players rather than a bunch of average players would be the correct thing to do. Yet you and most others heavily criticised Roeder for spending most of the transfer budget on 2 "quality" players instead of spreading it around on a whole new defense and 2 cheap strikers.

 

In the Summer Allardyce did exactly what you wanted Roeder to do, and we now have a team which, comparing results against equivalent games in our injury-riven previous season, has the same number of points and has conceded 28 goals compared to 19 last year. Apart from the odd game (seemingly only when the team is motivated by intense criticism) we don't look like we're learning or improving at all as the season goes on, so in all probability the current squad would finish this season in a very similar position to last, ie bottom third. This season though we wont have the excuse of half the squad being injured for most of the season. Why in this position where it seems like we have a poor squad - or rather just one which can't play well in the managers desired formation - would you completely switch your view to one where you think a couple of quality players will fix everything? Even if they make a difference, what happens when those players are injured - we go straight back to the shit we're seeing now.

[EthiGeordie]

  For whatever Big Sam excuse there is this guy Sven who makes instant success. I wonder had we won all our games and sitting comfortably in 4th place right now no one here would argue about Big Sam. I am not a fan of any individual until we get someone perfect and turn us around I am not satisfied.

[Jaehyun]

  For whatever Big Sam excuse there is this guy Sven who makes instant success. I wonder had we won all our games and sitting comfortably in 4th place right now no one here would argue about Big Sam. I am not a fan of any individual until we get someone perfect and turn us around I am not satisfied.

But you could argue that Man City weren't in as big of a dogshit position as us. They needed a spark of quality management and Sven provided that. We needed more than a spark, we needed a revolution, and we got one ( and it is still happening ) so it can only take more time for us than Man City.

[eaststar]

   For whatever Big Sam excuse there is this guy Sven who makes instant success. I wonder had we won all our games and sitting comfortably in 4th place right now no one here would argue about Big Sam. I am not a fan of any individual until we get someone perfect and turn us around I am not satisfied.

But you could argue that Man City weren't in as big of a dogshit position as us. They needed a spark of quality management and Sven provided that. We needed more than a spark, we needed a revolution, and we got one ( and it is still happening ) so it can only take more time for us than Man City.

 

that's it - what sold me was Big Sam's methods of changing the whole club and how it is run.

 

tbh i would be worried if we were winning games but there was no change to the club because that would be merely papering over the cracks.  THe prime example is Glen Roeder who did a great job when he took over as caretake manager but was just one of Sheperd's puppets.  Roeder had no idea what he was doing except try to say the right things and make the fans feel good.

 

I'm not an insider to the club, but my feeling is Sam is taking on problems at the club head on and trying to instil some sort of direction to the club.  In this time of transition there are going to be problems and things are not going to be right from the start.  Things need to improve gradually rather than suddenly (e.g. Man City) for there to be long term stability.  From memory, Wenger's first season at Arsenal wasn't great and neither was Ferguson's.  An exception is MOurinho... but he's the Special One.

 

Despite some bad results/performances I'm willing to give Sam some time to get things right.

[Dave]

  For whatever Big Sam excuse there is this guy Sven who makes instant success. I wonder had we won all our games and sitting comfortably in 4th place right now no one here would argue about Big Sam. I am not a fan of any individual until we get someone perfect and turn us around I am not satisfied.

 

http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=48071.msg1118555#msg1118555

[Rob W]

until we spend some money on a defense we're going nowhere

 

i was asked recently by a Chelsea fan how the hell we'd underachieved for so long and when you come back to it we ship far too many idiot goals

 

the fans want strikers but all great teams are built on a watertight back 4

[UV]

  For whatever Big Sam excuse there is this guy Sven who makes instant success. I wonder had we won all our games and sitting comfortably in 4th place right now no one here would argue about Big Sam. I am not a fan of any individual until we get someone perfect and turn us around I am not satisfied.

But you could argue that Man City weren't in as big of a dogshit position as us. They needed a spark of quality management and Sven provided that. We needed more than a spark, we needed a revolution, and we got one ( and it is still happening ) so it can only take more time for us than Man City.

 

I'd really like to see you try and do that. You might get some help here http://www.newcastle-online.com/nufcforum/index.php?topic=41456.0

[Scottish Mag]

until we spend some money on a defense we're going nowhere

 

i was asked recently by a Chelsea fan how the hell we'd underachieved for so long and when you come back to it we ship far too many idiot goals

 

the fans want strikers but all great teams are built on a watertight back 4

 

The midfield is a far bigger problem than the defence IMO.  The lack of ability to keep possesion or pass a ball 5-10 yards is what is continually putting our defence under pressure.  I think it was the Everton match that they went through a spell for a good half hour where they on top of us and put attack upon attack but not because the defence wasn't good enough, in fact they were doing a decent job at this time but everytime they had won possesion and given it to the forwards/midfield they continually and very poorly gave the ball away.

 

Too many people look at goals conceded and automatically blame the defenders.

 

 

[Guest Knightrider]

until we spend some money on a defense we're going nowhere

 

i was asked recently by a Chelsea fan how the hell we'd underachieved for so long and when you come back to it we ship far too many idiot goals

 

the fans want strikers but all great teams are built on a watertight back 4

 

The midfield is a far bigger problem than the defence IMO.  The lack of ability to keep possesion or pass a ball 5-10 yards is what is continually putting our defence under pressure.  I think it was the Everton match that they went through a spell for a good half hour where they on top of us and put attack upon attack but not because the defence wasn't good enough, in fact they were doing a decent job at this time but everytime they had won possesion and given it to the forwards/midfield they continually and very poorly gave the ball away.

 

Too many people look at goals conceded and automatically blame the defenders.

 

 

 

Agreed. I'd go further though and also say the attack isn't right either.

[Guest Knightrider]

I agree with what I believe is the main point of the OP, ie that we should spend what money we have available on quality (aka "trophy" signings) rather than quantity. I'm just curious about a few things:

 

You defend Allardyce's Summer transfers where he did the exact opposite of what you're now saying, by claiming he "strengthened a very small squad into an average squad". Was this quality wise? - remember, the squad he inherited (minus Bowyer & an ageing Shearer but without Martins & Duff) finished 7th under a combination of Souness & Roeder - or quantity wise? - according to this it's 15 out, 9 in.

 

We finished 7th in 05-06. A position where you would think adding a few quality players rather than a bunch of average players would be the correct thing to do. Yet you and most others heavily criticised Roeder for spending most of the transfer budget on 2 "quality" players instead of spreading it around on a whole new defense and 2 cheap strikers.

 

In the Summer Allardyce did exactly what you wanted Roeder to do, and we now have a team which, comparing results against equivalent games in our injury-riven previous season, has the same number of points and has conceded 28 goals compared to 19 last year. Apart from the odd game (seemingly only when the team is motivated by intense criticism) we don't look like we're learning or improving at all as the season goes on, so in all probability the current squad would finish this season in a very similar position to last, ie bottom third. This season though we wont have the excuse of half the squad being injured for most of the season. Why in this position where it seems like we have a poor squad - or rather just one which can't play well in the managers desired formation - would you completely switch your view to one where you think a couple of quality players will fix everything? Even if they make a difference, what happens when those players are injured - we go straight back to the shit we're seeing now.

 

It doesn't work like that though UV. We finished 7th with a small and average squad yes, which has since been improved to a degree, but we all know that 7th place finish was a false one or rather brought about by a feel good factor that kicked in because of Souness' sacking and with it the lifting of all pressure and expectations. That squad was never good enough nor large enough though and Roeder's subsequent dealings in the transfer market the season after didn't do anything to change that. For years Newcastle have been going from one crisis to another, in free-fall almost, you can't just fix that overnight. I think phase one has been completed or rather taken on which was to clear dead wood and bolster a very thing squad. We now need some quality as all clubs do. Liverpool have a very good squad but they lack the quality of Man Utd and Arsenal in their first-team and therefore won't win the league. Well for me we lack the quality that Blackburn, Everton et al have in their first-team and so we won't overtake them until we address that area. It's that clear. To me anyway.

[ChezGiven]

So we are going forward as a squad but we are also in free fall? Nice to see you've been paying attention to my posts anyway coach

[Guest Knightrider]

So we are going forward as a squad but we are also in free fall? Nice to see you've been paying attention to my posts anyway coach

 

We were in free-fall. We are not at current. It could all change of course, but what we do in the transfer market or not will largely determine that side of things I feel.

[ChezGiven]

Mort needs to back his manager now not later. Quite right.

[Guest Knightrider]

Mort needs to back his manager now not later. Quite right.

 

It could make all the difference and would be a clear sign that they are willing to give the manager some time. We can't go any further with the current players though, that's certain.

[UV]

I agree with what I believe is the main point of the OP, ie that we should spend what money we have available on quality (aka "trophy" signings) rather than quantity. I'm just curious about a few things:

 

You defend Allardyce's Summer transfers where he did the exact opposite of what you're now saying, by claiming he "strengthened a very small squad into an average squad". Was this quality wise? - remember, the squad he inherited (minus Bowyer & an ageing Shearer but without Martins & Duff) finished 7th under a combination of Souness & Roeder - or quantity wise? - according to this it's 15 out, 9 in.

 

We finished 7th in 05-06. A position where you would think adding a few quality players rather than a bunch of average players would be the correct thing to do. Yet you and most others heavily criticised Roeder for spending most of the transfer budget on 2 "quality" players instead of spreading it around on a whole new defense and 2 cheap strikers.

 

In the Summer Allardyce did exactly what you wanted Roeder to do, and we now have a team which, comparing results against equivalent games in our injury-riven previous season, has the same number of points and has conceded 28 goals compared to 19 last year. Apart from the odd game (seemingly only when the team is motivated by intense criticism) we don't look like we're learning or improving at all as the season goes on, so in all probability the current squad would finish this season in a very similar position to last, ie bottom third. This season though we wont have the excuse of half the squad being injured for most of the season. Why in this position where it seems like we have a poor squad - or rather just one which can't play well in the managers desired formation - would you completely switch your view to one where you think a couple of quality players will fix everything? Even if they make a difference, what happens when those players are injured - we go straight back to the s*** we're seeing now.

 

It doesn't work like that though UV. We finished 7th with a small and average squad yes, which has since been improved to a degree, but we all know that 7th place finish was a false one or rather brought about by a feel good factor that kicked in because of Souness' sacking and with it the lifting of all pressure and expectations. That squad was never good enough nor large enough though and Roeder's subsequent dealings in the transfer market the season after didn't do anything to change that. For years Newcastle have been going from one crisis to another, in free-fall almost, you can't just fix that overnight. I think phase one has been completed or rather taken on which was to clear dead wood and bolster a very thing squad. We now need some quality as all clubs do. Liverpool have a very good squad but they lack the quality of Man Utd and Arsenal in their first-team and therefore won't win the league. Well for me we lack the quality that Blackburn, Everton et al have in their first-team and so we won't overtake them until we address that area. It's that clear. To me anyway.

 

How? How has the squad been improved? Please elaborate. I see no evidence of an improved quality on the pitch, in fact it looks a lot worse to me & I repeat, 15 out, 9 in. You do the maths.

 

I find it laughable that you can attribute a 7th place finish with a supposedly poor squad simply to a "feel good factor" because a manager was sacked and not permanently replaced. Souness was sacked because results and performances weren't good enough for the players we had. We had a caretaker manager for half the season, so there was no one there for the players to try and impress; if anything the uncertainty would unsettle the players. When Roeder took over we were in 15th looking like possible relegation candidates, and you incredulously attribute an improved performance to a lack of pressure! 

 

Feel good factor performances do occur, but they don't last half a season. Face it, we either had a decent squad who were well capable of European place finishes with a good manager, or Roeder (or maybe Shearer!) was a miracle worker. The correct thing to do then is to do what you are now saying we should do from a much weaker position where it is less likely to improve us. Yet you mercilessly criticised this approach and advocated the exact opposite.

 

What happened to the feel good factor for this season anyway? With the optimism of a new billionaire owner, our supposedly improved squad, new better manager, easy fixture list. Shouldn't we be much higher than 11th?

[NE5]

I agree with what I believe is the main point of the OP, ie that we should spend what money we have available on quality (aka "trophy" signings) rather than quantity. I'm just curious about a few things:

 

You defend Allardyce's Summer transfers where he did the exact opposite of what you're now saying, by claiming he "strengthened a very small squad into an average squad". Was this quality wise? - remember, the squad he inherited (minus Bowyer & an ageing Shearer but without Martins & Duff) finished 7th under a combination of Souness & Roeder - or quantity wise? - according to this it's 15 out, 9 in.

 

We finished 7th in 05-06. A position where you would think adding a few quality players rather than a bunch of average players would be the correct thing to do. Yet you and most others heavily criticised Roeder for spending most of the transfer budget on 2 "quality" players instead of spreading it around on a whole new defense and 2 cheap strikers.

 

In the Summer Allardyce did exactly what you wanted Roeder to do, and we now have a team which, comparing results against equivalent games in our injury-riven previous season, has the same number of points and has conceded 28 goals compared to 19 last year. Apart from the odd game (seemingly only when the team is motivated by intense criticism) we don't look like we're learning or improving at all as the season goes on, so in all probability the current squad would finish this season in a very similar position to last, ie bottom third. This season though we wont have the excuse of half the squad being injured for most of the season. Why in this position where it seems like we have a poor squad - or rather just one which can't play well in the managers desired formation - would you completely switch your view to one where you think a couple of quality players will fix everything? Even if they make a difference, what happens when those players are injured - we go straight back to the shit we're seeing now.

 

Nailed on.

 

 

[NE5]

until we spend some money on a defense we're going nowhere

 

i was asked recently by a Chelsea fan how the hell we'd underachieved for so long and when you come back to it we ship far too many idiot goals

 

the fans want strikers but all great teams are built on a watertight back 4

 

The midfield is a far bigger problem than the defence IMO.  The lack of ability to keep possesion or pass a ball 5-10 yards is what is continually putting our defence under pressure.  I think it was the Everton match that they went through a spell for a good half hour where they on top of us and put attack upon attack but not because the defence wasn't good enough, in fact they were doing a decent job at this time but everytime they had won possesion and given it to the forwards/midfield they continually and very poorly gave the ball away.

 

Too many people look at goals conceded and automatically blame the defenders.

 

 

this was patiently explained to people on a number of occasions a year ago mate. I don't think a lot of people take any notice of anything, unless its something to misrepresent Shepherd and Hall, then we see all the cliches being spun out.

 

 

[NE5]

Mort needs to back his manager now not later. Quite right.

 

It could make all the difference and would be a clear sign that they are willing to give the manager some time. We can't go any further with the current players though, that's certain.

 

I would see it as a sign that they themselves have some genuine ambition for the club, of they type we are used to seeing, tbh.

[Parky]

Mort needs to back his manager now not later. Quite right.

 

It could make all the difference and would be a clear sign that they are willing to give the manager some time. We can't go any further with the current players though, that's certain.

 

I would see it as a sign that they themselves have some genuine ambition for the club, of they type we are used to seeing, tbh.

 

We need to spend some money in Jan.

[Thespence]

Mort needs to back his manager now not later. Quite right.

 

It could make all the difference and would be a clear sign that they are willing to give the manager some time. We can't go any further with the current players though, that's certain.

 

I would see it as a sign that they themselves have some genuine ambition for the club, of they type we are used to seeing, tbh.

 

We need to spend some money in Jan

 

Do you give it to the Deadman walking though.

[Tsunami]

We are going backwards not forwards at the moment.

 

We played well against Arsenal = 1pt

We scored a last minute winner against Brum = 3pts

We scored a last minute winner against Fulham = 3pts

We scored a goal in the last 2 minutes against Derby = 1pt

We lost today = 0 pts

 

We have taken 8 points from 15; it could have easily have been just 3 points from 15 & in a real crisis.

 

The players & majority of the fans are clearly baffled by BS's tactics. We have to stop this long ball, give it back to the opposition shite. He has until May to turn it around as there are many fans around where I sit who are not willing to fork out £600 a season to watch Championship style football.

 

 

[johnnypd]

we'll only get better when Sam has had the time and money to overhaul both the playing staff and the club behind the scenes. consideing how long we have to wait, how much we'll have to spend, how bad the football will be meanwhile, and how modest the actual return will be in the end (top 8?) you have to ask yourself, is it worth it?

[Tsunami]

I want to give him a fair crack; but our performances & tactics are absolute abysmal. He deserves until the end of the season.