Villa favourites in race to recruit troubled Martins

[Guest Knightrider]

I'd rather have Smith up front than Martins if I'm honest

 

Get help.

 

The only thing Martins has over Smith is goals

 

Oh, so not much then?

 

The point lost on you it seems is goals as infrequent as they come from Martins I might add, are not enough. We need more from Martins than the odd goal.

yeah, we could've done without Martins' odd goal last year..

wonder how Smith's creative genius would've fit next to Sibierski.. or from the right wing.. oh wait, we've seen that this season

 

What Martins did last year doesn't matter in regards to this debate. Lets re-sign Andy Cole because of what he did in 93-94...

 

No.

 

i wrote it, because you keep saying that the odd goal is not good enough

yeah, surely, if we are Real Madrid, it's not good enough.. but we are a team that lacks flair so much it hurts my eyes watching model pros like Smith playing their pointless side passes..

Martins' goals were good enough to save us from certain relegation last year, playing in a team that created even less chances than this season's.. in my eyes, he has proved here that he is a good striker and a danger for every defense.. sure he has his shortcommings, but who f****** doesn't..

if only Allardyce had some common sense to play him more regularly instead the lost cause of Mickey Owen, maybe his form wouldn't have suffered so much..

 

He's an average striker and an average goalscorer too, and he's a poor footballer full stop. This sin't opinion, it's based on clear and present evidence.

 

He's poor in almost every department to ever be a top striker/footballer.

 

As for your other comments, he's featured more this season than Owen so what the hell are you talking about?

He looked a pretty decent footballer last season and he has this season when played in a 4-4-2 (playing upfront). He has featured more than Owen by a few games but alot of the time has been played way out of position. Whenever he has played in a 4-4-2 this season and been played up top he has scored goals. Thats all the facts you need with a striker, goals.

 

Well I disagree, I think he looked and is a pretty poor footballer. I also think he's an average striker and an average goalscorer.

 

Yes goals are important but like stats they can be quite misleading. Goals scored determine how good a goalscorer a player is not how good a striker or a footballer someone is. Otherwise lets go and sign the 3rd division's leading goalscorer...

[Gallowgate Toon]

Oba has scored 24 goals in 55 starts and 62 appearances overall. With some of these starts being on the right wing. So basically your looking at a goal every 2 games with Oba. He is a good striker his goals to games proves it.

How many times has he played on the right wing?  He's played right side of a front 3 but that's hardly the same as a right winger.

Its actually pretty similar, your expected to go out wide and put in crosses, but also come inside and shoot too. did you not see the formation? who was going to stick out wide when you had Barton, Smith and Butt playing in the midfield, they are all very central players so Martins and Milner were expected to do the wingers dirty work.

However he has played on the right wing proper only a couple of times when Smith and Viduka were upfront together.

[junkhead]

Oba has scored 24 goals in 55 starts and 62 appearances overall. With some of these starts being on the right wing. So basically your looking at a goal every 2 games with Oba. He is a good striker his goals to games proves it.

How many times has he played on the right wing?  He's played right side of a front 3 but that's hardly the same as a right winger.

in Allardyce's 4-3-3, it is.

[Guest Pie]

 

Never has a smilie been so appropriate.

 

Why because my points go against your own? Debate the footballing points being raised if you can.

Maybe because you think James Milner has been excellent at times when in fact he has been utter s**** frequently? Think you have lost the plot tbh matey. Too much trying to be clever for the sake of it.

 

 

Lost it because I happen to think Milner has been excellent at times this season?

 

Well it's a blatent untruth. So yes.

[Guest BooBoo]

Wouldn't bother me ....cos he's pap.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

Never has a smilie been so appropriate.

 

Why because my points go against your own? Debate the footballing points being raised if you can.

Maybe because you think James Milner has been excellent at times when in fact he has been utter s**** frequently? Think you have lost the plot tbh matey. Too much trying to be clever for the sake of it.

 

 

Lost it because I happen to think Milner has been excellent at times this season?

 

Well it's a blatent untruth. So yes.

 

Ok then.

 

[Guest Pie]

 

Never has a smilie been so appropriate.

 

Why because my points go against your own? Debate the footballing points being raised if you can.

Maybe because you think James Milner has been excellent at times when in fact he has been utter s**** frequently? Think you have lost the plot tbh matey. Too much trying to be clever for the sake of it.

 

 

Lost it because I happen to think Milner has been excellent at times this season?

 

Well it's a blatent untruth. So yes.

 

Ok then.

 

Glad you agree 

[tmonkey]

Martins is simply doomed under Big Sam.

 

Go back to last year when Dyer was pushed up alongside Martins as opposed to Sibierski partnering Martins. Martins' form sky rocketed imo, his general play was much better and he was involved alot more in build ups than he currently is.

 

And the reason for that improved form is pretty obvious - aside from the team going from "lump it to the big bald guy" to "pass it on the deck, thats where Kieron is", Martins is a forward who likes to play in front of the defence, i.e. hes someone who doesnt need to be through on goal nor go past his man in order to have a chance of scoring, and is more comfortable playing in front of the centrebacks and looking for that half yard in which to get a shot off. We know his linkup play is inconsistent, and that hes not very good at making penetrating, offside-trap-beating runs, but he does have the ability to shoot with both feet as well as turn sharply in order to create that half a yard in which to get his shot off, and hence that makes him a dangerous player if hes allowed to play his game rather than playing a different role.

 

And playing alongside someone like Dyer, who irrespective of his lack of end product is a high calibre footballer (relatively speaking), someone with a good first touch, linkup play, and pacey/penetrative running off the ball, playing alonside that type of withdrawn forward allowed Martins' faults to be compensated because it allowed Martins to concentrate on what he does well rather than requiring him to do what hes not naturally good at (playing wide, dropping off, etc).

 

Hence, that is why Martins is doomed under Big Sam. The partnership that's been described is essentially a slightly different take on the Beardo Cole one, and that partnership only exists in your basic 4-4-2 system with one forward dropping behind the other. We're not going to see such a system under Big Sam. For whatever reasons, and irrespective of whether its good or bad, Big Sam doesnt believe in a standard 4-4-2 system, and as long as that is the case, Martins has no chance, because hes not good enough a footballer to play up front on his own, or out wide, or alongside another out-n-out striker/goalscorer where he'd need to drop deep or go wide. And to be fair to Big Sam, I wouldnt argue that Martins is definately good enough to warrant asking a manager to change his beliefs, buy players and building a team around Martins, but the point does exist imo, point being that Martins could and most likely would be alot better in a different setup than the current one, of which he is of little use.

 

The easiest thing to do is to get rid and replace him with someone who can fit into the manager's plans, although that then delves into the question of whether the manager's plans are something worth backing or something that we want to see on a weekly basis, but thats another topic altogether.

[Guest Knightrider]

 

Never has a smilie been so appropriate.

 

Why because my points go against your own? Debate the footballing points being raised if you can.

Maybe because you think James Milner has been excellent at times when in fact he has been utter s**** frequently? Think you have lost the plot tbh matey. Too much trying to be clever for the sake of it.

 

 

Lost it because I happen to think Milner has been excellent at times this season?

 

Well it's a blatent untruth. So yes.

 

Ok then.

 

Glad you agree 

 

Here, have one of these:

 

http://www.arenaflowers.com/product_image/large/307-congratulations_balloon.jpg

 

 

 

[Guest BooBoo]

Oh, please be quiet.

[Guest Knightrider]

Martins is simply doomed under Big Sam.

 

Go back to last year when Dyer was pushed up alongside Martins as opposed to Sibierski partnering Martins. Martins' form sky rocketed imo, his general play was much better and he was involved alot more in build ups than he currently is.

 

And the reason for that improved form is pretty obvious - aside from the team going from "lump it to the big bald guy" to "pass it on the deck, thats where Kieron is", Martins is a forward who likes to play in front of the defence, i.e. hes someone who doesnt need to be through on goal nor go past his man in order to have a chance of scoring, and is more comfortable playing in front of the centrebacks and looking for that half yard in which to get a shot off. We know his linkup play is inconsistent, and that hes not very good at making penetrating, offside-trap-beating runs, but he does have the ability to shoot with both feet as well as turn sharply in order to create that half a yard in which to get his shot off, and hence that makes him a dangerous player if hes allowed to play his game rather than playing a different role.

 

And playing alongside someone like Dyer, who irrespective of his lack of end product is a high calibre footballer (relatively speaking), someone with a good first touch, linkup play, and pacey/penetrative running off the ball, playing alonside that type of withdrawn forward allowed Martins' faults to be compensated because it allowed Martins to concentrate on what he does well rather than requiring him to do what hes not naturally good at (playing wide, dropping off, etc).

 

Hence, that is why Martins is doomed under Big Sam. The partnership that's been described is essentially a slightly different take on the Beardo Cole one, and that partnership only exists in your basic 4-4-2 system with one forward dropping behind the other. We're not going to see such a system under Big Sam. For whatever reasons, and irrespective of whether its good or bad, Big Sam doesnt believe in a standard 4-4-2 system, and as long as that is the case, Martins has no chance, because hes not good enough a footballer to play up front on his own, or out wide, or alongside another out-n-out striker/goalscorer where he'd need to drop deep or go wide. And to be fair to Big Sam, I wouldnt argue that Martins is definately good enough to warrant asking a manager to change his beliefs, buy players and building a team around Martins, but the point does exist imo, point being that Martins could and most likely would be alot better in a different setup than the current one, of which he is of little use.

 

The easiest thing to do is to get rid and replace him with someone who can fit into the manager's plans, although that then delves into the question of whether the manager's plans are something worth backing or something that we want to see on a weekly basis, but thats another topic altogether.

 

Good post even if I don't agree with all of it. I think you've hit the nail on the head though in that Martins isn't good enough to play the type of football the manager wants us to play or in the kind of system he wants us to play in.

[NUFC06]

I'd rather have Smith up front than Martins if I'm honest

 

Get help.

 

The only thing Martins has over Smith is goals

 

Oh, so not much then?

 

The point lost on you it seems is goals as infrequent as they come from Martins I might add, are not enough. We need more from Martins than the odd goal.

yeah, we could've done without Martins' odd goal last year..

wonder how Smith's creative genius would've fit next to Sibierski.. or from the right wing.. oh wait, we've seen that this season

 

What Martins did last year doesn't matter in regards to this debate. Lets re-sign Andy Cole because of what he did in 93-94...

 

No.

 

i wrote it, because you keep saying that the odd goal is not good enough

yeah, surely, if we are Real Madrid, it's not good enough.. but we are a team that lacks flair so much it hurts my eyes watching model pros like Smith playing their pointless side passes..

Martins' goals were good enough to save us from certain relegation last year, playing in a team that created even less chances than this season's.. in my eyes, he has proved here that he is a good striker and a danger for every defense.. sure he has his shortcommings, but who fucking doesn't..

if only Allardyce had some common sense to play him more regularly instead the lost cause of Mickey Owen, maybe his form wouldn't have suffered so much..

 

He's an average striker and an average goalscorer too, and he's a poor footballer full stop. This sin't opinion, it's based on clear and present evidence.

 

He's poor in almost every department to ever be a top striker/footballer.

 

As for your other comments, he's featured more this season than Owen so what the hell are you talking about?

 

UTTER MONKEY POO POO

[Guest BooBoo]

The Coach is talking sense tbh. Martins is nothing more than bog standard.

[TRon]

Martins is simply doomed under Big Sam.

 

Go back to last year when Dyer was pushed up alongside Martins as opposed to Sibierski partnering Martins. Martins' form sky rocketed imo, his general play was much better and he was involved alot more in build ups than he currently is.

 

And the reason for that improved form is pretty obvious - aside from the team going from "lump it to the big bald guy" to "pass it on the deck, thats where Kieron is", Martins is a forward who likes to play in front of the defence, i.e. hes someone who doesnt need to be through on goal nor go past his man in order to have a chance of scoring, and is more comfortable playing in front of the centrebacks and looking for that half yard in which to get a shot off. We know his linkup play is inconsistent, and that hes not very good at making penetrating, offside-trap-beating runs, but he does have the ability to shoot with both feet as well as turn sharply in order to create that half a yard in which to get his shot off, and hence that makes him a dangerous player if hes allowed to play his game rather than playing a different role.

 

And playing alongside someone like Dyer, who irrespective of his lack of end product is a high calibre footballer (relatively speaking), someone with a good first touch, linkup play, and pacey/penetrative running off the ball, playing alonside that type of withdrawn forward allowed Martins' faults to be compensated because it allowed Martins to concentrate on what he does well rather than requiring him to do what hes not naturally good at (playing wide, dropping off, etc).

 

Hence, that is why Martins is doomed under Big Sam. The partnership that's been described is essentially a slightly different take on the Beardo Cole one, and that partnership only exists in your basic 4-4-2 system with one forward dropping behind the other. We're not going to see such a system under Big Sam. For whatever reasons, and irrespective of whether its good or bad, Big Sam doesnt believe in a standard 4-4-2 system, and as long as that is the case, Martins has no chance, because hes not good enough a footballer to play up front on his own, or out wide, or alongside another out-n-out striker/goalscorer where he'd need to drop deep or go wide. And to be fair to Big Sam, I wouldnt argue that Martins is definately good enough to warrant asking a manager to change his beliefs, buy players and building a team around Martins, but the point does exist imo, point being that Martins could and most likely would be alot better in a different setup than the current one, of which he is of little use.

 

The easiest thing to do is to get rid and replace him with someone who can fit into the manager's plans, although that then delves into the question of whether the manager's plans are something worth backing or something that we want to see on a weekly basis, but thats another topic altogether.

 

Good stuff. Nice to see someone who looks at the bigger picture.

 

 

[brummie]

FWIW my money is on there being absolutely no truth whatsoever in this story in any case.

[Guest NUFC4]

IF we sell him we need to get Defoe here, or someone at least with speed but ALSO technique and ball control!

 

that would be fuckin genious!! oba out for 13 mil and defoe in for hmm i'm guessing 9 mil? would be a nice bit of business then we could use 2 of that to get in ben haim

[junkhead]

ah, sorry to bump this, but did you notice how many times the 'good footballer' Alan Smith did not make a mistake tonight?

6.. he made 6 short passes that were not intercepted.. and that was his whole contribution to the team tonight.. now that's a good footballer!

[Guest Knightrider]

ah, sorry to bump this, but did you notice how many times the 'good footballer' Alan Smith did not make a mistake tonight?

6.. he made 6 short passes that were not intercepted.. and that was his whole contribution to the team tonight.. now that's a good footballer!

 

Which is probably the same as Martins.

[toptoon]

Like Martins alot. Our top scorer last season and this season. Works his arse off, lightning quick and rarely injured. which is more than i can say for the rest of our strikeforce.

 

i'd be disapointed if we sold him however if i were him then i'd probably want to go too. Getting played rarely as a striker would piss me right off.

[junkhead]

ah, sorry to bump this, but did you notice how many times the 'good footballer' Alan Smith did not make a mistake tonight?

6.. he made 6 short passes that were not intercepted.. and that was his whole contribution to the team tonight.. now that's a good footballer!

 

Which is probably the same as Martins.

watch more carefully next time we play, coach..

i'm not saying Martins is some world class poacher, but at least he has a few strong sides to his game, Smith on the other hand is completely average at everything he does on the pitch, except for making stupid fouls and yelling to the ref..

so what's the criteria?

[Guest Knightrider]

ah, sorry to bump this, but did you notice how many times the 'good footballer' Alan Smith did not make a mistake tonight?

6.. he made 6 short passes that were not intercepted.. and that was his whole contribution to the team tonight.. now that's a good footballer!

 

Which is probably the same as Martins.

watch more carefully next time we play, coach..

i'm not saying Martins is some world class poacher, but at least he has a few strong sides to his game, Smith on the other hand is completely average at everything he does on the pitch, except for making stupid fouls and yelling to the ref..

so what's the criteria?

 

Smith in midfield is a waste of a shirt, he plays much better up front in his proper position. If Martins isn't scoring goals, he's a waste of a shirt too. To sum up neither are good enough and we won't move away from being a mid-table team with players like that in the starting 11 every week, regardless of who the manager is.

 

 

[mrmojorisin75]

Martins is simply doomed under Big Sam.

 

Go back to last year when Dyer was pushed up alongside Martins as opposed to Sibierski partnering Martins. Martins' form sky rocketed imo, his general play was much better and he was involved alot more in build ups than he currently is.

 

And the reason for that improved form is pretty obvious - aside from the team going from "lump it to the big bald guy" to "pass it on the deck, thats where Kieron is", Martins is a forward who likes to play in front of the defence, i.e. hes someone who doesnt need to be through on goal nor go past his man in order to have a chance of scoring, and is more comfortable playing in front of the centrebacks and looking for that half yard in which to get a shot off. We know his linkup play is inconsistent, and that hes not very good at making penetrating, offside-trap-beating runs, but he does have the ability to shoot with both feet as well as turn sharply in order to create that half a yard in which to get his shot off, and hence that makes him a dangerous player if hes allowed to play his game rather than playing a different role.

 

And playing alongside someone like Dyer, who irrespective of his lack of end product is a high calibre footballer (relatively speaking), someone with a good first touch, linkup play, and pacey/penetrative running off the ball, playing alonside that type of withdrawn forward allowed Martins' faults to be compensated because it allowed Martins to concentrate on what he does well rather than requiring him to do what hes not naturally good at (playing wide, dropping off, etc).

 

Hence, that is why Martins is doomed under Big Sam. The partnership that's been described is essentially a slightly different take on the Beardo Cole one, and that partnership only exists in your basic 4-4-2 system with one forward dropping behind the other. We're not going to see such a system under Big Sam. For whatever reasons, and irrespective of whether its good or bad, Big Sam doesnt believe in a standard 4-4-2 system, and as long as that is the case, Martins has no chance, because hes not good enough a footballer to play up front on his own, or out wide, or alongside another out-n-out striker/goalscorer where he'd need to drop deep or go wide. And to be fair to Big Sam, I wouldnt argue that Martins is definately good enough to warrant asking a manager to change his beliefs, buy players and building a team around Martins, but the point does exist imo, point being that Martins could and most likely would be alot better in a different setup than the current one, of which he is of little use.

 

The easiest thing to do is to get rid and replace him with someone who can fit into the manager's plans, although that then delves into the question of whether the manager's plans are something worth backing or something that we want to see on a weekly basis, but thats another topic altogether.

 

100% agreed, i posted something similar a few pages ago

 

we've a dilemma with martins (probably with duff/owen too) if we're going to blindly follow the managers plans as none of them really fit into allardyces style, and thus either he changes his style or we change our players

 

martins scores goals, regardless of whatever nonsense is being touted on here about him, put him up front ready to use his pace to run AT CB's or get in behind them and he WILL get goals, it's a fact

 

play him on the wing and we're fucked with martins, he's proving week in week out he can't/won't do it

 

so we've got a good, young, FIT striker who is not being played as one and either we ship him to a rival who'll play him to his strengths or WE play him to his strengths

 

crossroads time - do we all turst allardyce to, for example, sell the likes to martins/owen/duff (it's my opinion that these two won't fit allardyces system either, arguable though) and replace them with good enough players?

 

so far he's not shown me he can do that - we let souness "revamp" the squad and look what that got us for 50m or whatever it was