Kevin Keegan

[Tsunami]

We had 26 points when Allardyce was sacked in early January and finished on 43. There was no precipice, freewheeling or cliff. I totally go along with the contempt for Allardyce and appreciation for Keegan but the notion that the former was dragging us towards relegation before KK showed up, saved us and transformed the team into a really good outfit is bollocks.

 

I have no doubt that Fat Sam was taking us down. It was daylight robbery that we had that many points, there were a good many games where we nicked points late on. I've not looked these up but if someone wants to I think it'll be almost double figures.

[Ronaldo]

Aye, right. Allardyce and his history of taking teams down. No point in this mongish tosh.

[Mattoon]

Who said anything about changing us into a really good team? It took us time to turn it around but the quality of football on display was night and day. He changed the formation and tactics to suit the players, which is what I was alluding to. Allardyce would have either been close to or taken us down, I have no doubt, it was a risk not worth taking, but as the circumstance was never played out it is what it is, a matter of opinion, you're welcome to yours.

 

That does change the salient point I was trying to make, one man with the right philosophy, ideals and skills can make all the difference. We saw it with Keegan the first time and a lesser extent the second, we saw it with Sir Bobby too. My point being, even in Keegan's second spell, which was as already stated a lesser impact than his first spell, this club is able to do so much more under the right stewardship and should serve those with short memories all the evidence needed to quell the myths we play to the best of our "limited" ability.

 

But of course lets get caught up on the semantics and avoid the actual point being made because I'm just talking "mongey tosh".

[Guest]

He changed formation because of injuries to N'Zogbia & Milner coinciding with Owen, Martins & Viduka all being fit at the same time from what I remember.

[TRon]

He changed formation because of injuries to N'Zogbia & Milner coinciding with Owen, Martins & Viduka all being fit at the same time from what I remember.

 

That's probably why he changed to a passing game as well, must have been the injuries which forced him to withdraw Michael Owen into the head of a diamond midfield instead of lumping the ball long to his head as a centre forward.

 

 

[Guest]

The home game before 'that run', he played Smith up front with Owen and Duff on the wing with Martins & N'Zogbia on the bench in a 1-0 home defeat to Blackburn. Injuries to the wingers and Viduka coming back in the next two games sort of forced his hand. Obviously once we got to that system, it looked great for 5-6 games, but to say it was some tactical genius on his part to get to that is revisionism at its best.

[Ronaldo]

The home game before 'that run', he played Smith up front with Owen and Duff on the wing with Martins & N'Zogbia on the bench in a 1-0 home defeat to Blackburn. Injuries to the wingers and Viduka coming back in the next two games sort of forced his hand. Obviously once we got to that system, it looked great for 5-6 games, but to say it was some tactical genius on his part to get to that is revisionism at its best.

 

[Interpolic]

I thought we were going down under Allardyce, I'd have to look at the results again but it felt like our performances and form took a huge nosedive before he left. Thought it was indicative of the mess we were in that it took Keegan so long to sort it out when he arrived.

 

[Guest]

Half time v Birmingham was the first time that season I thought we'd go down. We were 1-0 down and playing poorly, think we were only a couple of points clear at the time too.

[tmonkey]

We had 26 points when Allardyce was sacked in early January and finished on 43. There was no precipice, freewheeling or cliff. I totally go along with the contempt for Allardyce and appreciation for Keegan but the notion that the former was dragging us towards relegation before KK showed up, saved us and transformed the team into a really good outfit is bollocks.

 

We had 23 points early January 2009. Kinnear had never been relegated either. We all know how that ended (relegated with 34 points), and it's testament to what can happen if morale drops under a stubborn/shit/clueless manager and the team falls into a rut from which it never recovers.

 

In terms of Allardyce, I thought we were definitely headed towards a relegation battle under him. Team looked awful by January - no morale, no shape, players looked lost/clueless as though thrown onto the pitch together for the first time, no idea how they meant to go about getting goals - in fact I'd argue at that stage we were even worse than the side that actually did get relegated a year later. Fat Sam persisting with Alan fucking Smith up front, which he did in practically every game he could field him in, would have been enough to wipe out that difference between the 43 points we ended the season with and the 36 points that got teams relegated.

 

On top of this, iirc we had a relatively kind fixture list in the first half of the season (we had nearly all the top teams at the time at home), with the more troublesome fixtures from December onwards, hence why the table looked OK in terms of points alone in January but didn't tell the full picture. Which is why it was always bollocks whenever pundits, professionals, Fat Sam himself, etc, put forward the "it was unfair to sack Sam when he was 11th in the table" - a cursory, retrospective glance at the table doesn't tell you what state the team was in nor what fixtures had taken place/were yet to come.

[Ronaldo]

Aye, a Joke Kinnear - Chris Hughton - Alan Shearer bumbling masterclass suggests Sam Allardyce could've gone 5 months without accumulating the 10 points required for PL safety.

[TRon]

The home game before 'that run', he played Smith up front with Owen and Duff on the wing with Martins & N'Zogbia on the bench in a 1-0 home defeat to Blackburn. Injuries to the wingers and Viduka coming back in the next two games sort of forced his hand. Obviously once we got to that system, it looked great for 5-6 games, but to say it was some tactical genius on his part to get to that is revisionism at its best.

 

You mean that system where Barton was out on the right wing and Owen was scoring goals as a withdrawn striker?  That must have been a fluke all along.

[Ketsbaia]

I remember being gutted when we sacked Allardyce. Then, 18 months later, we really did get relegated.

[Interpolic]

I don't think it's revisionist tbh, he found a formula that worked and stuck to it which sounds simple but seems to be beyond a lot of managers.  Playing 3 out and out centre forwards seemed daft at the time, even for one game and I'd never have had Owen down for that role, but it worked and we saw some great football.

 

Still pisses me off that he left, we wouldn't have won the league or owt daft like that but he won me around after thinking it was a daft appointment to begin with and it was brilliant having a man like Keegan managing our club again.

[tmonkey]

Aye, a Joke Kinnear - Chris Hughton - Alan Shearer bumbling masterclass suggests Sam Allardyce could've gone 5 months without accumulating the 10 points required for PL safety.

 

Keegan got 17 points from 16 games - W4 D5 L7 - and that's with the team slowly starting to play "football" again. What makes you think Sam would have gotten near that with the same group of players he was badly mis-managing and had lost the confidence of? All it would have taken is two less wins and one less draw. As stated, beyond the diminishing morale/performance levels and the increasingly difficult fixture list, simply sticking Big Sam's boy wonder Alan Smith up front for the rest of the season (Keegan stuck with him initially then dropped him) could have been enough to drop more than 7 points, let alone the rest of the team being unable to pass the ball or look like a semi-competent side.

 

A slide towards relegation was a distinct possibility based on what we were witnessing on the pitch. If you disagree, fair enough, but to call is bollocks/mongish is nonsense.

[tmonkey]

Anyway, I'm sure this was when he first took over, but the season after us sacking him, Blackburn appointed Big Sam when they were in the relegation zone. Big Sam's solution to the problem was to just stick Christopher Samba - a centreback - up front for 90 minutes and shamelessly play classic Allardyce all-out hoofball to get out of, and stay out of, the relegation zone. It worked well, Sam won plaudits for turning things around whilst we were relegated (and he was getting on his high horse about us sacking him iirc), but I remember thinking without Samba he'd have been f***ed as that's the only get-out clause he had when the chips were down. Stick a giant battering ram up front and tell the team to "just boot it".

 

We didn't have a Christopher Samba. Hence why we'd have been in big trouble under Sam - there was no easy get-out clause for him here. Hoofing it to Owen/Smith/Martins sounds hilarious now, but that's what actually happened (Viduka was useless in this area too). Thinking back, I just can't see how anyone can suggest there was definitely no risk of relegation under Fat Sam given what we were witnessing at the time.

[Interpolic]

We were definitely hoofing it up to Owen and Martins.  Obviously made zero sense.

[Ronaldo]

Well, actually, the point being disputed is that we looked like going down under Allardyce. Which we didn't. Allardyce's football is awful on the eye but he is far too good at scraping wins to get a side relegated.

[Interpolic]

Having looked at the tables on Statto I'm inclined to agree now, can distinctly recall feeling at the time like we were sinking like a stone before he went though.

[newsted]

Well, actually, the point being disputed is that we looked like going down under Allardyce. Which we didn't. Allardyce's football is awful on the eye but he is far too good at scraping wins to get a side relegated.

 

Oh, mate, can I dispute that first point? He'd somehow lucked into an easier set of fixtures than any of our previous Premier League managers and luckily got the boot before the tough ones hit him. He's a good scraper, I'll give him that, he's been a very, very lucky man. I would never have him back here though. No malo.

[Ronaldo]

Neither would I. I'd have him over Pardew, mind.

[newsted]

Debatable imo.

[Tsunami]

We had 26 points when Allardyce was sacked in early January and finished on 43. There was no precipice, freewheeling or cliff. I totally go along with the contempt for Allardyce and appreciation for Keegan but the notion that the former was dragging us towards relegation before KK showed up, saved us and transformed the team into a really good outfit is bollocks.

 

I have no doubt that Fat Sam was taking us down. It was daylight robbery that we had that many points, there were a good many games where we nicked points late on. I've not looked these up but if someone wants to I think it'll be almost double figures.

 

I've had a quick look, we collected 13 points from goals scored from the 86th minute onward, that includes 2 against a very unlucky Everton, a winner against an equally unlucky Wigan, last minute winners against the giants that are Birmingham and Fulham and an undeserved home draw with Derby where iirc Barnes was the best player on the pitch. Defeats included the embarrassment that was Pompey at home.

 

Performances were awful and we were going down under the useless twat.

[Ronaldo]

It's totally irrelevant, as performances are always pretty awful with Allardyce in the dugout.

 

The results, however, aren't awful. That's his MO.

[Guest]

The home game before 'that run', he played Smith up front with Owen and Duff on the wing with Martins & N'Zogbia on the bench in a 1-0 home defeat to Blackburn. Injuries to the wingers and Viduka coming back in the next two games sort of forced his hand. Obviously once we got to that system, it looked great for 5-6 games, but to say it was some tactical genius on his part to get to that is revisionism at its best.

 

 

 

You mean that system where Barton was out on the right wing and Owen was scoring goals as a withdrawn striker?  That must have been a fluke all along.

 

Barton wasn't a right-winger in that run. Was more a midfield central three of Barton, Geremi & Butt with Owen off the front two. Beye & Enrique had licence to roam and provided the width.

 

Like I said, once we got to that system it worked a treat for half a dozen games. It's the way people are going on as if it was all part of a master plan that I don't agree with.