TRon Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 What you notice if you watch the town and then watch another team (not AGAINST us, as it seems a gioven that we make other teams look good), is that other teams - not just the big clubs, even average clubs like us - pass the ball far, far better than us. PAssing and movement is awful in our side, and has been for ages. I was watching yesterday's matches closely for precisely this reason. I wanted to see if other teams gave up the ball when being pressed and the answer is they don't. Chelsea and Man U in particular either passed the ball before anyone got near them (often one touch) or they shielded the ball until an option became available, which they quckly did as there was so much movement off the ball. Our players, in contrast, pass it then stand still, only too relieved to have got rid of the ball. A more sorry bunch of losers it would be hard to assemble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Monkey Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 What you notice if you watch the town and then watch another team (not AGAINST us, as it seems a gioven that we make other teams look good), is that other teams - not just the big clubs, even average clubs like us - pass the ball far, far better than us. PAssing and movement is awful in our side, and has been for ages. I was watching yesterday's matches closely for precisely this reason. I wanted to see if other teams gave up the ball when being pressed and the answer is they don't. Chelsea and Man U in particular either passed the ball before anyone got near them (often one touch) or they shielded the ball until an option became available, which they quckly did as there was so much movement off the ball. Our players, in contrast, pass it then stand still, only too relieved to have got rid of the ball. A more sorry bunch of losers it would be hard to assemble. Even the teams that some on here would (incorrectly) view as "beneath" us do passing and movement better than us. Its a worry. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorpinho Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I said this weeks ago after the 6-0 man utd game. The defence got slated but it wasnt even remotely their fault, the centre of midfield is simply pathetic and its like the oppo have the entire middle section of the pitch from box to box to just waltz around in. beye taylor faye enrique milner n'zogbia Owen Martins/viduka Thats the sort of formation we play. The big white space in the middle is where we get raped. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Totally agree with your first post - all this criticism our defence gets is unfair. It's not entirely undeserved, considering the antics of one Stephen Carr on Saturday, but it's out defending as a team that is shocking. We can never keep the ball long enough or launch a meaningful attack meaning our defenders have to do 5 times as much defending as most other back lines in the league, which means more exposure which means more space for errors/constant pressure. I've said before that the key to good, modern DM is one that can make a crunching, accurate tackle and then do something useful with the ball - Carrick, Mascherano, Flamini, Makelele, Hamann etc. all fit the bill. Butt can tackle someone but then kicks it to the other team/off the park/loses it immediately. An attacking midfielder is one who can pick up the ball and make something happen - run at players, pick a killer pass, have a go from distance. Barton offers none of these and plenty more problems in abundance. Central midfield is probably the key area on the pitch as they both have to contribute to attack and defence, and ours is hideously inadequate. I've been saying forever that Emre has to be a starter, just because at least he can make something happen. I would then partner him with Faye or Geremi - tackling wise Faye is better, but for the pass afterwards/creative side Geremi could be a better option. Butt is knackered and completely past it, Barton is just a waste of time and doesn't offer anything right now, shadow of the player he was at Man City (where I never thought he was that good to be honest, just a fairly decent player in a woefully average side). I also can't finish a post without reiterating that Alan Smith is shit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 What you notice if you watch the town and then watch another team (not AGAINST us, as it seems a gioven that we make other teams look good), is that other teams - not just the big clubs, even average clubs like us - pass the ball far, far better than us. PAssing and movement is awful in our side, and has been for ages. I was watching yesterday's matches closely for precisely this reason. I wanted to see if other teams gave up the ball when being pressed and the answer is they don't. Chelsea and Man U in particular either passed the ball before anyone got near them (often one touch) or they shielded the ball until an option became available, which they quckly did as there was so much movement off the ball. Our players, in contrast, pass it then stand still, only too relieved to have got rid of the ball. A more sorry bunch of losers it would be hard to assemble. Even the teams that some on here would (incorrectly) view as "beneath" us do passing and movement better than us. Its a worry. Out of those beneath i'd say that the mackems and Boro (now above) are the two that pass and move more consistantly. Apart from the that the others don't. The main reason behind this is to with consistant teams and confidence. Sure we've had some tactical disasters but noone could convince me that any of their squads are close to ours. However, i must admit, it's hardly less worrying. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
STM Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Totally agree with your first post - all this criticism our defence gets is unfair. It's not entirely undeserved, considering the antics of one Stephen Carr on Saturday, but it's out defending as a team that is shocking. We can never keep the ball long enough or launch a meaningful attack meaning our defenders have to do 5 times as much defending as most other back lines in the league, which means more exposure which means more space for errors/constant pressure. I've said before that the key to good, modern DM is one that can make a crunching, accurate tackle and then do something useful with the ball - Carrick, Mascherano, Flamini, Makelele, Hamann etc. all fit the bill. Butt can tackle someone but then kicks it to the other team/off the park/loses it immediately. An attacking midfielder is one who can pick up the ball and make something happen - run at players, pick a killer pass, have a go from distance. Barton offers none of these and plenty more problems in abundance. Central midfield is probably the key area on the pitch as they both have to contribute to attack and defence, and ours is hideously inadequate. I've been saying forever that Emre has to be a starter, just because at least he can make something happen. I would then partner him with Faye or Geremi - tackling wise Faye is better, but for the pass afterwards/creative side Geremi could be a better option. Butt is knackered and completely past it, Barton is just a waste of time and doesn't offer anything right now, shadow of the player he was at Man City (where I never thought he was that good to be honest, just a fairly decent player in a woefully average side). I also can't finish a post without reiterating that Alan Smith is shit. I salute you, absolute nutshell. The only thing i'd pick you up on is Bartons city performances. I know a few people that work at city and i saw him play there a couple of times my self, he was good. However, there he looked like a chief amongst indians, now he looks like and indian among indians. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenige Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Agree, have been saying this all season. Our defending doesn't start and end with the back four, if anything it's more about the midfield. Butt has looked shot for a while, and no-one alongside him has looked that impressive. I can understand why Keegan wants someone committed in there, but if they can't pass it more than five yards, it's just a shambles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buzza Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Why not play Nzogbia next to butt in the middle, would add guile and guts and perhaps we would be able to move the ball around a bit better. Milner---Butt---Zog---Duff ---------Owen---Martins-- Have owen and martins up front 'cos smith is teargas and bring viduka on for ten minutes at the end if he can be arsed... The defence: just play Faye on his own, another three would just complicate things!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davy_fulla Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Probably not directly linked to this thread topis but I haven't got enough posts to start a new topic up. Got a txt off a mate earlier saying he was in tup tup palace last night. He reckons Duff got kicked out and was absolutely hammered and Given got kicked out as well - though wasn't as bad. They must have been celebrating our success at the weekend Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChezGiven Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 ..... and rusty kegs in the newcastle changing rooms. Its a sorry state of affairs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hakka Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 I was watching yesterday's matches closely for precisely this reason. I wanted to see if other teams gave up the ball when being pressed and the answer is they don't. Chelsea and Man U in particular either passed the ball before anyone got near them (often one touch) or they shielded the ball until an option became available, which they quckly did as there was so much movement off the ball. Our players, in contrast, pass it then stand still, only too relieved to have got rid of the ball. A more sorry bunch of losers it would be hard to assemble. Good post. I've too noticed that we are too quick to get rid of the ball when under pressure. Take the recent game against Villa for example, when we went 1 - 0 up we should have kept the ball for as long as possible, really frustrate the Villa side and make them send numbers in to our half to try and get the ball back, then try to counter them with Duff or N'Zogbia. But we didn't. The ball slowley gets played around to someone like Carr or Butt who suddenly believe that the best thing to do is to lob the ball over the full backs (something that isn't easy to do for the best of players) and then of course, they fuck it up, ball goes straight back to the opposition or out for a opposition throw. It's so frustrating to watch. We need to pass around teams, not resort to hit and hope tactics once we've managed to string more than 3 passes together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eires No. 1 Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Dare i say we miss the pace and energy of Dyer or/and Jenas. I hate them both too but at there prime they got beyond the front 2 and got on the end of things. Something where crying out for :-[ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Truth be told, we never replaced Speed. And we've missed Jenas more than people care to admit. But it's all a shambles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Replacing Dyer with Alan Smith was an awful decision, for all his faults he had pace and could stretch teams by getting in behind them, now we're stuck with an idiot like Smith who's main attribute is getting stuck in and giving fouls away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggio Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 Truth be told, we never replaced Speed. And we've missed Jenas more than people care to admit. But it's all a shambles. If only Sir Bobby was allowed to replace Speed with Carrick. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted February 11, 2008 Share Posted February 11, 2008 What makes a side tick in the successful teams - or cough and splutter in clapped out vehicles like ours at present? Watching us fail to move the ball beyond the halfway line all season without resorting to the long ball, the problems aren't the defenders as all the pundits seem to think, but the central midfielders in my view. Barton and Butt were given the honours yesterday, and between them they took it in turns to pass to the opposition, lose the ball under the slightest pressure and fail to move off the ball to create some space for others. Watching their counterparts in proper football teams like Man U, Liverpool or Chelsea it's like watching a different game. This is the area that has to be addressed if we are going to start looking like a football team again. In the short term the answer might be to lose a forward like Smith who has little impact anyway, and play an extra midfielder like Emre. In the long term none of the current central midfielders are good enough and we need heavy investment next season. This is the point, and it's spot on. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Totally agree with your first post - all this criticism our defence gets is unfair. It's not entirely undeserved, considering the antics of one Stephen Carr on Saturday, but it's out defending as a team that is shocking. We can never keep the ball long enough or launch a meaningful attack meaning our defenders have to do 5 times as much defending as most other back lines in the league, which means more exposure which means more space for errors/constant pressure. I've said before that the key to good, modern DM is one that can make a crunching, accurate tackle and then do something useful with the ball - Carrick, Mascherano, Flamini, Makelele, Hamann etc. all fit the bill. Butt can tackle someone but then kicks it to the other team/off the park/loses it immediately. An attacking midfielder is one who can pick up the ball and make something happen - run at players, pick a killer pass, have a go from distance. Barton offers none of these and plenty more problems in abundance. Central midfield is probably the key area on the pitch as they both have to contribute to attack and defence, and ours is hideously inadequate. I've been saying forever that Emre has to be a starter, just because at least he can make something happen. I would then partner him with Faye or Geremi - tackling wise Faye is better, but for the pass afterwards/creative side Geremi could be a better option. Butt is knackered and completely past it, Barton is just a waste of time and doesn't offer anything right now, shadow of the player he was at Man City (where I never thought he was that good to be honest, just a fairly decent player in a woefully average side). I also can't finish a post without reiterating that Alan Smith is shit. And this explains it all very well, too. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Two very good posts, hitting the nail on the head. I have said from the very start of the season, and will continue to say over and over again, we've got good players in this squad. Faye and Caçapa (when they played together in that spell before Claudio collapsed against Pompey) was arguably one of the best centre-back pairings i've seen us have in the Prem - even though it was only really a snippet. I still think they are two very, very good defenders. Faye's a bruiser, no-nonsense, fantastic organisation, good pace and brilliant aerially... Caçapa's a bit nervous and lacks strength, but is good on the ball and can find a teammate. He's intelligent. These two played with each other well. They counter-balanced each other's weaknesses. In Beye and Enrique, i think we have (atleast one) very good wing-back(s). I'm looking back through my post as i'm typing and i honestly don't feel that i'm exaggerating (hmm, maybe with Caçapa...). Both of these started slowly, but considering the respective circumstances, they fitted in very well. Beye is quick and supports the wingers even though he doesn't have a particularly good crossing ability. He gets back quickly too and his slide-tackling is almost always timed to perfection; he absolutely owned Martin Petrov (one of the Prem's best wingers this season behind CRon) when we played them up here. We haven't seen enough of Enrique, but to me he looks pretty quick and very strong. Having to play the likes of Taylor and Carr regularly throws a spanner in the works, they're both pretty limited. Upfront, Michael Owen is still a good player that thrives on service. Aye, i think he's been pretty poor given the chance this season but we have lacked providing service. Martins is a good striker imo. Viduka appears to be losing it, but still, he's got a hell of a lot of quality. Between them, they've mustered 18 goals. Three players of the quality of Owen, Oba and Viduka? Not right. Our centre-midfielders DON'T help the defense... by either not being quick enough to get back, throwing possession away easily, or giving away free-kicks, or not penetrating spacious zones infront of them, etc, generally just being shit. Our centre-midfielders DON'T help the strikers... by either not being quick enough to get forward and add support in the box (a la Dyer/Bowyer when he was good/Jenas when he was good), throwing possession away easily, not having the quality to pick out a good pass, dawdling on the ball, etc, generally just being shit. Emre's the best of the lot but he's inconsistent and can't play away from home. He's an impact sub. Barton is a waste of time, Butt is utterly woeful, Smith is utterly woeful, and Geremi - remains to be seen, i haven't lost all hope. Unfortunately, i think we have to have Faye in midfield. I could go on for hours about the centre-midfield tbh. Carrick and Arteta in the summer please. 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Guest battyleespeed Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I don't think one or two creative midfielders are going to be enough to do the trick for us. The problem is squad-wide. Both Arsenal and ManU first team players have two things in common and those are 1. decision making (when to keep possession, when to release the ball, when to dribble, etc.) and 2. support (starting from the off the ball movement). Always someone who to play the simple ball to. Repeat and rinse until find better option. It seems Wenger and Fergie have purposedly collected players who have good natural decision making, technique (to allow that fraction of second of extra time on the ball and to get them out of tight spots) and stamina (for support play). When you have enough of these kind of players you have little trouble to keep possession. In last several years we have had several players who had these qualities (Alan, Nobby, Woodgate, maybe few others) but they are all gone. Out of current players I see little hope in Duff, maybe Emre as well, but basically we are pretty deep in s*** in this department and it shows. Collectively we have very little, if any, confidence on the ball. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 I have been pointing out, ever since late September , that the passing and movement off the ball has been dreadful ; I was blaming the coaching and if this keeps on being a feature of our play it indicates that it is definitely the players to blame as KK always got the players doing pass & move/5 a side in training during his first stint as manager. The type of midfielders we have tend to be static(Butt, Geremi, Faye when played there - even Barton has been poor in that department) ; only the likes of Zog, Milner and Duff show plenty of movement off the ball and they are basically wide players.Emre CAN do it, but is a bit lightweight and disappears for long periods of the game which is probably why managers tend to use him as a sub. Emre is the only one who attempts a through ball to try to split defences - no-one else has the accuracy... The wide players, with the exception of Duff, are also poor crossers of the ball - only Duff has tried to beat the fullback and pull the ball back into the area ; the others tend to lump it in from behind the 18 yard line. Altogether, as I said previously, we do not have a TEAM - they don't attack as one, or defend as one and once possession is given away(which is very regularly)they are under pressure immediately. It is not hard to see why we are in this position..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 12, 2008 Share Posted February 12, 2008 Truth be told, we never replaced Speed. And we've missed Jenas more than people care to admit. But it's all a shambles. Jenas still has weaknesses to his game, just like he did when he was with us BUT what he brings to a team is exactly what we are now missing. Pace, good close control, great running and movement with and without the ball and a superb engine, not a clapped out motor which starts rattling and creaking when forced above it's limited capacity. Anyway, some good posts here although it's telling that everyone is struggling to come up with a convincing short term solution - a good indicator of how little quality we've got in midfield. We just need to get to the summer intact and hopefully KK will show his mettle in the transfer market to put it right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 [bUMPED] Just bumping this in light of the talk of Butt getting a new contract: I know we were rubbish in the 2nd half against Stoke, but the first half gave us a glimpse of what a midfield engine with newer parts could look like. Zog, Guthrie, Geremi and Jonas were sublime for 45 minutes and we actually looked like a team that could pass, move and create. Put Barton in there in Geremi's place and you might have had a team with the legs to go 90 mins. It's just frustrating that just when we get to see what a future without Butt and Duff in the midfield could look like, Guthrie's injury has put a block on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heneage Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Every manager needs time. But it would be nice to have midfielders who have learnt the concept of pass and move. Its the reason we can't have Butt after this season Butt only works in a 4-5-1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 I agree with T Ron, I think Guthrie was good before he came off and gave an idea of what he could do. Hopefully when Guthrie and Barton are fit again we will be able to see them together. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Don't think it's a huge coincidence that our two best performances of all out attacking, fluid football have come when Butt wasn't on the pitch. (West Brom home, Stoke home). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozy Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Don't think it's a huge coincidence that our two best performances of all out attacking, fluid football have come when Butt wasn't on the pitch. (West Brom home, Stoke home). Maybe its because they are the 2 shittest teams away from home in the league? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted December 9, 2008 Share Posted December 9, 2008 Don't think it's a huge coincidence that our two best performances of all out attacking, fluid football have come when Butt wasn't on the pitch. (West Brom home, Stoke home). Maybe its because they are the 2 shittest teams away from home in the league? Beat me to it. Although I can appreciate that Yorkie might be right, I do get the feeling it was more who we were playing than who was playing for us. Were we even that good against Stoke in the first half? They were truly, truly awful and as far as I remember we stopped playing after 24 minutes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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