Keegan. Yesterday's man ?

[Wullie]

Why would English football revert to the "continental" style when English clubs have totally dominated the Champions League over the past five years?

 

Sounds more to me like the Europeans (and I'm not even sure how widespread this phenomenon really is tbh) should go back to how a football club should be run.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Ian W, where do you live? I've noticed a lot of your posts are very balanced (i.e. not pro board, not anti board).

 

It's just that everyone living in Newcastle, or at least the surrounding area, are united in one thing. They feel betrayed by Ashley and co. The feeling here is incredibly intense.... more so than at any other point in my lifetime. The whole thing has pushed everyone to the edge, and (quite rightly in my opinion) no one can think of a positive slant to put on Ashley and co's handling of this.

 

As much as I admire your posts for trying to see it both ways, there is very little chance that people will forgive and forget here.

 

 

I live in Oxford at the moment, I think it does help being away from the hysteria of the whole place, as much as I love it. From Gateshead originally though, been down south for a couple of years... I get to as many away games as I can and about 5 or 6 home games.

 

I suppose I do feel like I'm looking in on this a bit, but I remember the first Keegan era clearly and I'm as hurt as anyone else.

 

All I ask myself is 'what did I want for the club a year or so ago?', and the answer is something like what Ashley has come and put in place. Therefore I can't bring myself to hate him, or the system.

[Guest Sniffer]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

[Wullie]

Fergie didn't sign Ronaldo. Some Man United players suggested that he should be watched, so Man United sent a team out to watch him. They recommended to Ferguson that they should sign him, so Fergie (without watching him) told them to do it.

 

That's exactly the way a club should be run. If we believe everything we've heard then both parties are to blame here. Keegan for not accepting that this is the way things should be done, and the club for not listening to Keegan when he refused certain players.

 

The biggest mistake was bringing Keegan in in the first place, seeing that the club wanted to go in this direction. Everyone could see it would never work.

 

For the umpteenth time, that appears to be what was happening until the later stages of the deadline when they started going over his head.

[Wullie]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

 

Exactly. Why haven't Wenger and Benitez put this thing into their clubs? And why did it drive Mourinho from Chelsea? There's three of the best "continental" managers on the... continent, and they're having none of it.

[Shearergol]

Fergie didn't sign Ronaldo. Some Man United players suggested that he should be watched, so Man United sent a team out to watch him. They recommended to Ferguson that they should sign him, so Fergie (without watching him) told them to do it.

 

That's exactly the way a club should be run. If we believe everything we've heard then both parties are to blame here. Keegan for not accepting that this is the way things should be done, and the club for not listening to Keegan when he refused certain players.

 

The biggest mistake was bringing Keegan in in the first place, seeing that the club wanted to go in this direction. Everyone could see it would never work.

 

For the umpteenth time, that appears to be what was happening until the later stages of the deadline when they started going over his head.

 

I've not read your previous posts on the subject, so apologies.

 

Are we to believe that Keegan left the club at this stage of the season over one disagreement then?

[Shearergol]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

 

Exactly. Why haven't Wenger and Benitez put this thing into their clubs? And why did it drive Mourinho from Chelsea? There's three of the best "continental" managers on the... continent, and they're having none of it.

 

Maybe because the bigger clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool can have their pick of players, so they don't have to have people scouting the untapped market?

[johnnypd]

Fergie didn't sign Ronaldo. Some Man United players suggested that he should be watched, so Man United sent a team out to watch him. They recommended to Ferguson that they should sign him, so Fergie (without watching him) told them to do it.

 

That's exactly the way a club should be run. If we believe everything we've heard then both parties are to blame here. Keegan for not accepting that this is the way things should be done, and the club for not listening to Keegan when he refused certain players.

 

The biggest mistake was bringing Keegan in in the first place, seeing that the club wanted to go in this direction. Everyone could see it would never work.

 

For the umpteenth time, that appears to be what was happening until the later stages of the deadline when they started going over his head.

 

sounds like Fergie did sign Ronaldo then.

 

from what i remember the man utd players, after a friendly game against sporting lisbon, were raving about him in the dressing room. I'm sure fergie had his own thoughts, having just watched him play for 90 minutes. anyway the source on wikipedia about that incident also says that fergie had been tracking Ronaldo for 4 years before that.

 

like saying Robson didn't sign N'Zogbia because charlie woods initially saw him, and cos Shearer said we should sign him up. the final decision rests with one man.

[Benwell Lad]

Ian W, where do you live? I've noticed a lot of your posts are very balanced (i.e. not pro board, not anti board).

 

It's just that everyone living in Newcastle, or at least the surrounding area, are united in one thing. They feel betrayed by Ashley and co. The feeling here is incredibly intense.... more so than at any other point in my lifetime. The whole thing has pushed everyone to the edge, and (quite rightly in my opinion) no one can think of a positive slant to put on Ashley and co's handling of this.

 

As much as I admire your posts for trying to see it both ways, there is very little chance that people will forgive and forget here.

 

 

 

Think you might be right about the geography thing. I'm not in Newcastle, and I blame both sides. I can still see Ashley making the club huge again.

 

I am from Newcastle and I think both sides must take blame. I also think both sides wanted to move the club forward but had widely differing views on how to go about it.

It's a huge shame that a compromise and common ground couldn't be found.

[Shearergol]

Fergie didn't sign Ronaldo. Some Man United players suggested that he should be watched, so Man United sent a team out to watch him. They recommended to Ferguson that they should sign him, so Fergie (without watching him) told them to do it.

 

That's exactly the way a club should be run. If we believe everything we've heard then both parties are to blame here. Keegan for not accepting that this is the way things should be done, and the club for not listening to Keegan when he refused certain players.

 

The biggest mistake was bringing Keegan in in the first place, seeing that the club wanted to go in this direction. Everyone could see it would never work.

 

For the umpteenth time, that appears to be what was happening until the later stages of the deadline when they started going over his head.

 

sounds like Fergie did sign Ronaldo then.

 

from what i remember the man utd players, after a friendly game against sporting lisbon, were raving about him in the dressing room. I'm sure fergie had his own thoughts, having just watched him play for 90 minutes. anyway the source on wikipedia about that incident also says that fergie had been tracking Ronaldo for 4 years before that.

 

like saying Robson didn't sign N'Zogbia because charlie woods initially saw him, and cos Shearer said we should sign him up. the final decision rests with one man.

 

Do you honestly think that most managers go and watch players for 4 years? I know for a fact that that isn't the case.

[johnnypd]

Fergie didn't sign Ronaldo. Some Man United players suggested that he should be watched, so Man United sent a team out to watch him. They recommended to Ferguson that they should sign him, so Fergie (without watching him) told them to do it.

 

That's exactly the way a club should be run. If we believe everything we've heard then both parties are to blame here. Keegan for not accepting that this is the way things should be done, and the club for not listening to Keegan when he refused certain players.

 

The biggest mistake was bringing Keegan in in the first place, seeing that the club wanted to go in this direction. Everyone could see it would never work.

 

For the umpteenth time, that appears to be what was happening until the later stages of the deadline when they started going over his head.

 

sounds like Fergie did sign Ronaldo then.

 

from what i remember the man utd players, after a friendly game against sporting lisbon, were raving about him in the dressing room. I'm sure fergie had his own thoughts, having just watched him play for 90 minutes. anyway the source on wikipedia about that incident also says that fergie had been tracking Ronaldo for 4 years before that.

 

like saying Robson didn't sign N'Zogbia because charlie woods initially saw him, and cos Shearer said we should sign him up. the final decision rests with one man.

 

Do you honestly think that most managers go and watch players for 4 years? I know for a fact that that isn't the case.

 

not sure why you'd even have to ask that question and so one is saying that. Fergue probably watched him a few times and also had scouts go and monitor his progress.

[Wullie]

Fergie didn't sign Ronaldo. Some Man United players suggested that he should be watched, so Man United sent a team out to watch him. They recommended to Ferguson that they should sign him, so Fergie (without watching him) told them to do it.

 

That's exactly the way a club should be run. If we believe everything we've heard then both parties are to blame here. Keegan for not accepting that this is the way things should be done, and the club for not listening to Keegan when he refused certain players.

 

The biggest mistake was bringing Keegan in in the first place, seeing that the club wanted to go in this direction. Everyone could see it would never work.

 

For the umpteenth time, that appears to be what was happening until the later stages of the deadline when they started going over his head.

 

I've not read your previous posts on the subject, so apologies.

 

Are we to believe that Keegan left the club at this stage of the season over one disagreement then?

 

Fair enough, the place is being swamped.

 

I think he was delighted with Jonas and Colo (his reaction to them suggests that), they scouted them, even if KK doesn't see much of them they can say "Jonas is peanuts, won't affect the budget, Redknapp wanted to pay £8m in January" while Colo's record speaks for itself.

 

When this window shut, not many people were altogether happy with the business that was done. I believe KK was given certain assurances (a LB and re-investment of the Milner money for a start, plus what we should be spending anyway as a very rich Premiership club) and he went with it until the last day when he found he'd been given false promises. I think he trusted them too much to get in the players that he believed he needed - he's the one that has to work with them and he's the one who gets the bullet if they're shit/injuries take hold and we don't have the numbers.

 

If he'd walked on the 1st August, plenty would have said "he should have waited until the end of the window to see what we had, they've got good players so far, maybe at the end we'll have a top six side but he's bottled it again."

 

Damned if he did, damned if he didn't and there is an argument to be made that he could have stuck it out until January, whatever, but at the end of the day, "it's not what it said in the brochure" - that goes for both KK and the fans.

[LooneyToonArmy]

Toshock makes a mention here about the continental approaches to things after his long period coaching abroad. He didn`t know a great deal about the incoming players when he was Real coach

 

----------

 

Wales boss John Toshack feels foreign owners have altered the basics of English football culture.

 

In the wake of Kevin Keegan and Alan Curbishley's resignations from Newcastle and West Ham respectively, Toshack believes the conditions they were forced to work under are a sign of the times.

 

Gone are the days when the manager has the final say in transfer policy, with the ever-increasing power of owners infiltrating into the dressing room.

 

Toshack concedes things were never like this during his 1970s playing days, but admits he has experienced similar circumstances during his days managing on the continent with clubs like Real Madrid and Real Sociedad.

 

"I don't know whether Kevin will be back in the Premier League," he said.

 

"But it seems to me that the only person who signs players is [should be] the manager who has to work with them at 10.30am every morning.

 

"I was brought up on that as a manager. It was generally accepted that managers decided who the players should be, and he signed them.

 

"Then I started working abroad at a Basque club, Real Sociedad, who could not sign players anyway.

 

"But then when I worked with other clubs, unfortunately, players were signed that I knew little about.

 

"At Real Madrid I think I had two choices from every six signed! The president would come to me and ask my opinion, listen, and then tell me that the players had already been signed.

 

"That happened more than once. In Europe that is very much the style, other people sign players and coaches coach."

 

Toshack added: "The British manager is unique now. All over Europe it is different. Now the game is changing in the Premier League, with a lot of foreign people and money coming in.

 

"So in the British game it is happening more and more. The two who have quit this week, Kevin and Alan Curbishley, played at around the time I did and were brought up in a certain way.

 

"Managers now end up with players they didn't sign, and if they don't do well the team fails and the manager gets the sack. While the people who did the signings keep their jobs.

 

"But this has been happening in Europe a long, long time. I know Kevin very well and he is honest and wears his heart on his sleeve.

 

"They used to let the manager do the job. But now we see people with money coming in and you wonder with some of the players signed in recent weeks whether the manager knew anything about them.

 

"Kevin and Curbishley have had enough. I felt this would happen, and I believe

 

it will happen even more now to English managers."

 

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11678_4102096,00.html

 

 

[Wullie]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

 

Exactly. Why haven't Wenger and Benitez put this thing into their clubs? And why did it drive Mourinho from Chelsea? There's three of the best "continental" managers on the... continent, and they're having none of it.

 

Maybe because the bigger clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool can have their pick of players, so they don't have to have people scouting the untapped market?

 

Aye, that sounds like Arsenal alright.

[Guest Sniffer]

No the manager doesn't have to have a say. Not if he is just a glorified coach who takes what's given to him. What I don't understand is why people think it's a better system just because they use it abroad. Seems like the trend is just because it's foreign it has to be better. Result don't substantiate that but why let that get in the way?

[Shearergol]

Fergie didn't sign Ronaldo. Some Man United players suggested that he should be watched, so Man United sent a team out to watch him. They recommended to Ferguson that they should sign him, so Fergie (without watching him) told them to do it.

 

That's exactly the way a club should be run. If we believe everything we've heard then both parties are to blame here. Keegan for not accepting that this is the way things should be done, and the club for not listening to Keegan when he refused certain players.

 

The biggest mistake was bringing Keegan in in the first place, seeing that the club wanted to go in this direction. Everyone could see it would never work.

 

For the umpteenth time, that appears to be what was happening until the later stages of the deadline when they started going over his head.

 

sounds like Fergie did sign Ronaldo then.

 

from what i remember the man utd players, after a friendly game against sporting lisbon, were raving about him in the dressing room. I'm sure fergie had his own thoughts, having just watched him play for 90 minutes. anyway the source on wikipedia about that incident also says that fergie had been tracking Ronaldo for 4 years before that.

 

like saying Robson didn't sign N'Zogbia because charlie woods initially saw him, and cos Shearer said we should sign him up. the final decision rests with one man.

 

Do you honestly think that most managers go and watch players for 4 years? I know for a fact that that isn't the case.

 

not sure why you'd even have to ask that question and so one is saying that. Fergue probably watched him a few times and also had scouts go and monitor his progress.

 

The point is, people go on on here that we shouldn't have the team in place to find talented players. Nobody actually knows the full story other than a statement from the LMA saying that a manager shouldn't have players forced upon them, and an alledged email from Keegan's relative.

 

It worries me that the story coming out is that Keegan refused to sign a player based on that the fact that he hadn't seen him play, despite having a small squad and it being the last day of the transfer window. I really can't believe that Keegan was in discussions with certain players and Wise turned around and told him to sign different ones. If that really is the case, where the fuck are they?

 

Some say that Keegan wanted to keep Barton and the club wanted to sell him. Again, if that's the case, and Keegan always lost out, why is Barton still here?

 

There's a hell of a lot more to this, and I'm convinced that the transfer system is a very small part of it. Nearly every club works the same way, and I think people are making too much of it.

[magpie418]

Ian W, where do you live? I've noticed a lot of your posts are very balanced (i.e. not pro board, not anti board).

 

It's just that everyone living in Newcastle, or at least the surrounding area, are united in one thing. They feel betrayed by Ashley and co. The feeling here is incredibly intense.... more so than at any other point in my lifetime. The whole thing has pushed everyone to the edge, and (quite rightly in my opinion) no one can think of a positive slant to put on Ashley and co's handling of this.

 

As much as I admire your posts for trying to see it both ways, there is very little chance that people will forgive and forget here.

 

 

 

Think you might be right about the geography thing. I'm not in Newcastle, and I blame both sides. I can still see Ashley making the club huge again.

 

I am from Newcastle and I think both sides must take blame. I also think both sides wanted to move the club forward but had widely differing views on how to go about it.

It's a huge shame that a compromise and common ground couldn't be found.

 

I live 2 or 3 miles from the ground and agree with the lad from Benwell.

[Shearergol]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

 

Exactly. Why haven't Wenger and Benitez put this thing into their clubs? And why did it drive Mourinho from Chelsea? There's three of the best "continental" managers on the... continent, and they're having none of it.

 

Maybe because the bigger clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool can have their pick of players, so they don't have to have people scouting the untapped market?

 

Aye, that sounds like Arsenal alright.

 

Glad you mentioned that. Wenger didn't choose Fabregas, in the same way that he didn't want Overmars to leave.

[Wullie]

There's a hell of a lot more to this, and I'm convinced that the transfer system is a very small part of it. Nearly every club works the same way, and I think people are making too much of it.

 

What?

[Shearergol]

There's a hell of a lot more to this, and I'm convinced that the transfer system is a very small part of it. Nearly every club works the same way, and I think people are making too much of it.

 

What?

 

People identify players. Scouts watch them. The manager ok's it. That's how clubs work. As I say, I don't believe Keegan didn't have final say, apart from maybe one decision on deadline day.

[johnnypd]

Fergie didn't sign Ronaldo. Some Man United players suggested that he should be watched, so Man United sent a team out to watch him. They recommended to Ferguson that they should sign him, so Fergie (without watching him) told them to do it.

 

That's exactly the way a club should be run. If we believe everything we've heard then both parties are to blame here. Keegan for not accepting that this is the way things should be done, and the club for not listening to Keegan when he refused certain players.

 

The biggest mistake was bringing Keegan in in the first place, seeing that the club wanted to go in this direction. Everyone could see it would never work.

 

For the umpteenth time, that appears to be what was happening until the later stages of the deadline when they started going over his head.

 

sounds like Fergie did sign Ronaldo then.

 

from what i remember the man utd players, after a friendly game against sporting lisbon, were raving about him in the dressing room. I'm sure fergie had his own thoughts, having just watched him play for 90 minutes. anyway the source on wikipedia about that incident also says that fergie had been tracking Ronaldo for 4 years before that.

 

like saying Robson didn't sign N'Zogbia because charlie woods initially saw him, and cos Shearer said we should sign him up. the final decision rests with one man.

 

Do you honestly think that most managers go and watch players for 4 years? I know for a fact that that isn't the case.

 

not sure why you'd even have to ask that question and so one is saying that. Fergue probably watched him a few times and also had scouts go and monitor his progress.

 

The point is, people go on on here that we shouldn't have the team in place to find talented players. Nobody actually knows the full story other than a statement from the LMA saying that a manager shouldn't have players forced upon them, and an alledged email from Keegan's relative.

 

It worries me that the story coming out is that Keegan refused to sign a player based on that the fact that he hadn't seen him play, despite having a small squad and it being the last day of the transfer window. I really can't believe that Keegan was in discussions with certain players and Wise turned around and told him to sign different ones. If that really is the case, where the fuck are they?

 

Some say that Keegan wanted to keep Barton and the club wanted to sell him. Again, if that's the case, and Keegan always lost out, why is Barton still here?

 

There's a hell of a lot more to this, and I'm convinced that the transfer system is a very small part of it. Nearly every club works the same way, and I think people are making too much of it.

 

who the hell says we shouldnt have a team in place finding talent?

 

it's called a scouting team and keegan has worked with scouts for his whole career. the difference is when the scouts start having final say on who comes and goes which is bonkers.

[Shearergol]

Johnny, I feel I answered that in my previous post.

 

Damn, going away for the weekend, just as this debate was getting good

[Wullie]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

 

Exactly. Why haven't Wenger and Benitez put this thing into their clubs? And why did it drive Mourinho from Chelsea? There's three of the best "continental" managers on the... continent, and they're having none of it.

 

Maybe because the bigger clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool can have their pick of players, so they don't have to have people scouting the untapped market?

 

Aye, that sounds like Arsenal alright.

 

Glad you mentioned that. Wenger didn't choose Fabregas, in the same way that he didn't want Overmars to leave.

 

Wenger got to reinvest the Overmars money on his own players didn't he?

 

And what do you mean he didn't choose Fabregas?

[TRon]

Anyway, systems and job descriptions aside, while I do sympathise with Keegan, I saw the new recruitment team as being a step forward. It's not too far off what Wenger does at Arsenal, the main difference being he obviously exercises more control on the final decision. But he's earned that trust by showing a vast knowledge of the market, which Keegan just hasn't got.

 

 

[Benwell Lad]

No the manager doesn't have to have a say. Not if he is just a glorified coach who takes what's given to him. What I don't understand is why people think it's a better system just because they use it abroad. Seems like the trend is just because it's foreign it has to be better. Result don't substantiate that but why let that get in the way?

 

I don't remember anyone saying it is a BETTER system, but that it's becoming more prevelant in the modern game.

 

New methods are not necessarily better. I'm old enough to know that.