Keegan. Yesterday's man ?

[Wullie]

There's a hell of a lot more to this, and I'm convinced that the transfer system is a very small part of it. Nearly every club works the same way, and I think people are making too much of it.

 

What?

 

People identify players. Scouts watch them. The manager ok's it. That's how clubs work. As I say, I don't believe Keegan didn't have final say, apart from maybe one decision on deadline day.

 

I think it was more than one decision (apparently trying to peddle Owen and Barton for a start) and them being in control of deals basically allowed them to take the piss - "Yeah course we'll spend the Milner money and get a left back, don't you worry about a thing Kev... *snigger*"

[johnnypd]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

 

Exactly. Why haven't Wenger and Benitez put this thing into their clubs? And why did it drive Mourinho from Chelsea? There's three of the best "continental" managers on the... continent, and they're having none of it.

 

Maybe because the bigger clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool can have their pick of players, so they don't have to have people scouting the untapped market?

 

Aye, that sounds like Arsenal alright.

 

Glad you mentioned that. Wenger didn't choose Fabregas, in the same way that he didn't want Overmars to leave.

 

eh?

 

Wenger did sign him. a contact in spain said he was a good player, Wenger got Steve Rowley to scout him a few times, Wenger personally travelled to spain to meet him and his parents, arranged for a trial and then finally gave the final word. very similar story for the other youngsters arsenal bring in.

 

as ive said elsewhere, Wenger is in total control at Arsenal. he's even paid scouts from his own pocket to look for players in Africa, that's how involved he is.

[Wullie]

Anyway, systems and job descriptions aside, while I do sympathise with Keegan, I saw the new recruitment team as being a step forward. It's not too far off what Wenger does at Arsenal, the main difference being he obviously exercises more control on the final decision. But he's earned that trust by showing a vast knowledge of the market, which Keegan just hasn't got.

 

But Dennis Wise has? Righto.

[TRon]

Anyway, systems and job descriptions aside, while I do sympathise with Keegan, I saw the new recruitment team as being a step forward. It's not too far off what Wenger does at Arsenal, the main difference being he obviously exercises more control on the final decision. But he's earned that trust by showing a vast knowledge of the market, which Keegan just hasn't got.

 

But Dennis Wise has? Righto.

 

I don't know, and neither do you, but Dennis Wise is part of the recruitment team and on board with whatever the recruitment strategy is. If KK didn't go along with it obviously there was going to be problems.

[Shearergol]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

 

Exactly. Why haven't Wenger and Benitez put this thing into their clubs? And why did it drive Mourinho from Chelsea? There's three of the best "continental" managers on the... continent, and they're having none of it.

 

Maybe because the bigger clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool can have their pick of players, so they don't have to have people scouting the untapped market?

 

Aye, that sounds like Arsenal alright.

 

Glad you mentioned that. Wenger didn't choose Fabregas, in the same way that he didn't want Overmars to leave.

 

eh?

 

Wenger did sign him. a contact in spain said he was a good player, Wenger got Steve Rowley to scout him a few times, Wenger personally travelled to spain to meet him and his parents, arranged for a trial and then finally gave the final word. very similar story for the other youngsters arsenal bring in.

 

as ive said elsewhere, Wenger is in total control at Arsenal. he's even paid scouts from his own pocket to look for players in Africa, that's how involved he is.

 

An Arsenal scout (Francis Cagigao) watched Fabregas twice. Another scout then went out to watch him in another game. Wenger wanted to sign Messi, but because of the fact that he's Argentinian he couldn't. Cagigao went to Rowley and spoke to him about Fabregas. He then convinced Wenger to watch a video of him, which led to Wenger signing him.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this system, and people calling for the heads of Wise etc need to take a step back and think for a few days. IF (and we still don't know) what Wullie says about Owen/Barton is correct, then Keegan certainly has right to complain. I still don't think he should have resigned following one day's problem's though, especially at this time of the season.

 

Both sides are to blame, not the actual system.

[johnnypd]

And the clubs that dominate here don't have that set up.

 

Wenger and SAF would walk before they were told by some piece of shit like wise what to do.

 

Exactly. Why haven't Wenger and Benitez put this thing into their clubs? And why did it drive Mourinho from Chelsea? There's three of the best "continental" managers on the... continent, and they're having none of it.

 

Maybe because the bigger clubs like Arsenal and Liverpool can have their pick of players, so they don't have to have people scouting the untapped market?

 

Aye, that sounds like Arsenal alright.

 

Glad you mentioned that. Wenger didn't choose Fabregas, in the same way that he didn't want Overmars to leave.

 

eh?

 

Wenger did sign him. a contact in spain said he was a good player, Wenger got Steve Rowley to scout him a few times, Wenger personally travelled to spain to meet him and his parents, arranged for a trial and then finally gave the final word. very similar story for the other youngsters arsenal bring in.

 

as ive said elsewhere, Wenger is in total control at Arsenal. he's even paid scouts from his own pocket to look for players in Africa, that's how involved he is.

 

An Arsenal scout (Francis Cagigao) watched Fabregas twice. Another scout then went out to watch him in another game. Wenger wanted to sign Messi, but because of the fact that he's Argentinian he couldn't. Cagigao went to Rowley and spoke to him about Fabregas. He then convinced Wenger to watch a video of him, which led to Wenger signing him.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this system, and people calling for the heads of Wise etc need to take a step back and think for a few days. IF (and we still don't know) what Wullie says about Owen/Barton is correct, then Keegan certainly has right to complain. I still don't think he should have resigned following one day's problem's though, especially at this time of the season.

 

Both sides are to blame, not the actual system.

 

but that's not the same as what we reportedly have, where the scouts sign the players and the manager doesnt have the final say. that is a systematic problem that will not go away with the departure of kevin keegan and which will continue to be a problem unless we specifically go out and, instead of getting a 'Manager' get a 'Coach' instead.

 

Wenger had the final say on Fabregas, and as i said even went out to spain to talk to him and his family and had him in on trial before giving the go ahead.

[Shearergol]

So you are now claiming Keegan had no say in signing Colo, Jonas, Bassong etc etc?

[johnnypd]

So you are now claiming Keegan had no say in signing Colo, Jonas, Bassong etc etc?

 

i'm saying he's not had the final say, which is a bit different.

 

you don't think arsenal would sign fabregas if wenger turned round and said 'not good enough, wont fit into the team, already have better in his position so i dont want him" do you?

 

having scouts assist your manager is not a new development within football and something Keegan will have relied on for bloody ages. the difference is when the chain of command shifts and the manager does not have final say. the system has worked for decades and if it isnt broke dont fix it.

[Guest gggg]

An Arsenal scout (Francis Cagigao) watched Fabregas twice. Another scout then went out to watch him in another game. Wenger wanted to sign Messi, but because of the fact that he's Argentinian he couldn't. Cagigao went to Rowley and spoke to him about Fabregas. He then convinced Wenger to watch a video of him, which led to Wenger signing him.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this system, and people calling for the heads of Wise etc need to take a step back and think for a few days. IF (and we still don't know) what Wullie says about Owen/Barton is correct, then Keegan certainly has right to complain. I still don't think he should have resigned following one day's problem's though, especially at this time of the season.

 

Both sides are to blame, not the actual system.

 

So you're saying Arsenal have a good scouting system in place. Fair play to them, but what the fuck does that have to do with our situation?

[Shearergol]

So you are now claiming Keegan had no say in signing Colo, Jonas, Bassong etc etc?

 

i'm saying he's not had the final say, which is a bit different.

 

you don't think arsenal would sign fabregas if wenger turned round and said 'not good enough, wont fit into the team, already have better in his position so i dont want him" do you?

 

So if Keegan had said no, we would still have signed them?

[Shearergol]

An Arsenal scout (Francis Cagigao) watched Fabregas twice. Another scout then went out to watch him in another game. Wenger wanted to sign Messi, but because of the fact that he's Argentinian he couldn't. Cagigao went to Rowley and spoke to him about Fabregas. He then convinced Wenger to watch a video of him, which led to Wenger signing him.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this system, and people calling for the heads of Wise etc need to take a step back and think for a few days. IF (and we still don't know) what Wullie says about Owen/Barton is correct, then Keegan certainly has right to complain. I still don't think he should have resigned following one day's problem's though, especially at this time of the season.

 

Both sides are to blame, not the actual system.

 

So you're saying Arsenal have a good scouting system in place. Fair play to them, but what the fuck does that have to do with our situation?

 

Well it looks like we're doing exactly the same thing. Kinda relevant, yeah?

[johnnypd]

So you are now claiming Keegan had no say in signing Colo, Jonas, Bassong etc etc?

 

i'm saying he's not had the final say, which is a bit different.

 

you don't think arsenal would sign fabregas if wenger turned round and said 'not good enough, wont fit into the team, already have better in his position so i dont want him" do you?

 

So if Keegan had said no, we would still have signed them?

 

yes.

 

Curbishley resigned for similar reasons (i bet those two loanees brought in last minute had nowt to do with him). if it weren't the case, none of this wouldve happened.

[Guest gggg]

An Arsenal scout (Francis Cagigao) watched Fabregas twice. Another scout then went out to watch him in another game. Wenger wanted to sign Messi, but because of the fact that he's Argentinian he couldn't. Cagigao went to Rowley and spoke to him about Fabregas. He then convinced Wenger to watch a video of him, which led to Wenger signing him.

 

There is absolutely nothing wrong with this system, and people calling for the heads of Wise etc need to take a step back and think for a few days. IF (and we still don't know) what Wullie says about Owen/Barton is correct, then Keegan certainly has right to complain. I still don't think he should have resigned following one day's problem's though, especially at this time of the season.

 

Both sides are to blame, not the actual system.

 

So you're saying Arsenal have a good scouting system in place. Fair play to them, but what the fuck does that have to do with our situation?

 

Well it looks like we're doing exactly the same thing. Kinda relevant, yeah?

 

How are we doing the same thing? You've just said Arsenals scouts answer to the manager and he signs the players. Ours don't as we know from Keegan.

[TRon]

So you are now claiming Keegan had no say in signing Colo, Jonas, Bassong etc etc?

 

i'm saying he's not had the final say, which is a bit different.

 

you don't think arsenal would sign fabregas if wenger turned round and said 'not good enough, wont fit into the team, already have better in his position so i dont want him" do you?

 

So if Keegan had said no, we would still have signed them?

 

yes.

 

Curbishley resigned for similar reasons (i bet those two loanees brought in last minute had nowt to do with him). if it weren't the case, none of this wouldve happened.

 

Curbishley resigned because he was two games from the sack anyway. I didn't see masses of fans gathering outside Upton Park calling for him to be re-instated.

[Benwell Lad]

The circumstances surrounding Curbishley and Keegans departure are so similar but the outrage is so much greater (and different)here.

Is this because the press and Sky etc were stirring and hyping the Wise/Keegan thing from day one and this has lead to Wise being seen as the villain of the piece.

[Jay Jay Sea]

Anyway, systems and job descriptions aside, while I do sympathise with Keegan, I saw the new recruitment team as being a step forward. It's not too far off what Wenger does at Arsenal, the main difference being he obviously exercises more control on the final decision. But he's earned that trust by showing a vast knowledge of the market, which Keegan just hasn't got.

 

 

There's too much emphasis being placed on Keegan's knowledge (or lack of) regarding foreign players and the market in general (emphasis being on abroad players).  How the fuck can a fella, that 1st time around, brought in foreigners in the shape of GINOLA, ASPRILLA, ALBERT, just 'suddenly' not have a knowledge of the market abroad?  If he was left to recruit his own players I bet he'd have fucking spotted and recruited far, far better players than Wise any day of the week.  It's really simply in that managers manage, recruit, offload and get players to perform.  Why we've got to follow the 'continental' way is fucking beyond me.

[johnnypd]

So you are now claiming Keegan had no say in signing Colo, Jonas, Bassong etc etc?

 

i'm saying he's not had the final say, which is a bit different.

 

you don't think arsenal would sign fabregas if wenger turned round and said 'not good enough, wont fit into the team, already have better in his position so i dont want him" do you?

 

So if Keegan had said no, we would still have signed them?

 

yes.

 

Curbishley resigned for similar reasons (i bet those two loanees brought in last minute had nowt to do with him). if it weren't the case, none of this wouldve happened.

 

Curbishley resigned because he was two games from the sack anyway. I didn't see masses of fans gathering outside Upton Park calling for him to be re-instated.

 

plenty of west ham fans disgusted. very similar threads on KUMB where people saying 'that's me finished with football', 'well done curbishley a true hammer' etc etc

 

the main difference in reaction is because curbishley is an average manager and keegan is a good one who has a world class rapport with the fans. the reasons for both of them resigning are pretty much identical.

[TRon]

Anyway, systems and job descriptions aside, while I do sympathise with Keegan, I saw the new recruitment team as being a step forward. It's not too far off what Wenger does at Arsenal, the main difference being he obviously exercises more control on the final decision. But he's earned that trust by showing a vast knowledge of the market, which Keegan just hasn't got.

 

 

There's too much emphasis being placed on Keegan's knowledge (or lack of) regarding foreign players and the market in general (emphasis being on abroad players).  How the fuck can a fella, that 1st time around, brought in foreigners in the shape of GINOLA, ASPRILLA, ALBERT, just 'suddenly' not have a knowledge of the market abroad?  If he was left to recruit his own players I bet he'd have fucking spotted and recruited far, far better players than Wise any day of the week.  It's really simply in that managers manage, recruit, offload and get players to perform.  Why we've got to follow the 'continental' way is fucking beyond me.

 

GINOLA, ASPRILLA, ALBERT were already well established stars who we paid premium prices for. It's a bit easier than spotting Fabregas when he's 19 then watching his value rocket isn't it?

 

Otherwise I think I'd make a mint manager. I advise the club to buy David Villa, Arshavin, Terry and Bentley, and I can guarantee we will be more successful 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

First of all let me say it, I love Kevin Keegan, a genuine man and a people's person. I loved watching him play in black and white, I loved what he brought to us as a manager. When he returned in January like many I was misty eyed and tried to believe the "Messiah's return" was the best thing for us, but deep down inside me there were serious doubts about whether he would truly be up to the job of modern day football management.

 

It seems that towards the end of his latest tenure as manager at Newcastle he fought a losing battle in trying to resist the modern football trend of a management team running the business and recruitment side of the club and a coach looking after the team, training and matches.

Sadly whether we like it or not English football will gradually adopt the system they already have in Spain,Italy, Germany and France etc and in a few years there will be no managers as such, only head coaches like Scolari at Chelsea. 

 

I'm sorry it ended like it did for Keegan and that he was unable to iron out the differences, after all he was building a good team and he himself was pleased with a lot of the recruitment to date and I really wish that even when he regarded his position as untenable that he couldn't have said "OK I'm being paid millions this isn't working but I'll stay with the players until a successor is found" thereby avoiding the present shambolic state of affairs.

Sorry you went King Kev, but life WILL go on. We will continue supporting Newcastle, although right now it feels hard to do so, I guess the only reason we're so upset is because we truly love the club.

 

I hope whoever succeeds KK will be given a fair chance by us, the fans, and that he will be able to adapt to the way football seems to be evolving.

 

Does this mean that 95% of managers in this country are yesterday's men too? I'm aware there is a shifting change in football where managers are concerned but in England at least anyway, the DOF role will always be in the minority.

 

KK and this system could and would have worked... until it started to undermine him. That is the real reason why he's not our manager and not this so-called system we have in place. KK would have done the same under any circumstances if he was being undermined as he did in 97 where there was no DOF.

[Optimistic Nut]

First of all let me say it, I love Kevin Keegan, a genuine man and a people's person. I loved watching him play in black and white, I loved what he brought to us as a manager. When he returned in January like many I was misty eyed and tried to believe the "Messiah's return" was the best thing for us, but deep down inside me there were serious doubts about whether he would truly be up to the job of modern day football management.

 

It seems that towards the end of his latest tenure as manager at Newcastle he fought a losing battle in trying to resist the modern football trend of a management team running the business and recruitment side of the club and a coach looking after the team, training and matches.

Sadly whether we like it or not English football will gradually adopt the system they already have in Spain,Italy, Germany and France etc and in a few years there will be no managers as such, only head coaches like Scolari at Chelsea. 

 

I'm sorry it ended like it did for Keegan and that he was unable to iron out the differences, after all he was building a good team and he himself was pleased with a lot of the recruitment to date and I really wish that even when he regarded his position as untenable that he couldn't have said "OK I'm being paid millions this isn't working but I'll stay with the players until a successor is found" thereby avoiding the present shambolic state of affairs.

Sorry you went King Kev, but life WILL go on. We will continue supporting Newcastle, although right now it feels hard to do so, I guess the only reason we're so upset is because we truly love the club.

 

I hope whoever succeeds KK will be given a fair chance by us, the fans, and that he will be able to adapt to the way football seems to be evolving.

 

Does this mean that 95% of managers in this country are yesterday's men too? I'm aware there is a shifting change in football where managers are concerned but in England at least anyway, the DOF role will always be in the minority.

 

KK and this system could and would have worked... until it started to undermine him. That is the real reason why he's not our manager and not this so-called system we have in place. KK would have done the same under any circumstances if he was being undermined as he did in 97 where there was no DOF.

 

And just over a year later, Ray Wilkins left Fulham when he felt he was having his team-selections interferred with by somebody higher up than him...

[Guest Howaythetoon]

First of all let me say it, I love Kevin Keegan, a genuine man and a people's person. I loved watching him play in black and white, I loved what he brought to us as a manager. When he returned in January like many I was misty eyed and tried to believe the "Messiah's return" was the best thing for us, but deep down inside me there were serious doubts about whether he would truly be up to the job of modern day football management.

 

It seems that towards the end of his latest tenure as manager at Newcastle he fought a losing battle in trying to resist the modern football trend of a management team running the business and recruitment side of the club and a coach looking after the team, training and matches.

Sadly whether we like it or not English football will gradually adopt the system they already have in Spain,Italy, Germany and France etc and in a few years there will be no managers as such, only head coaches like Scolari at Chelsea. 

 

I'm sorry it ended like it did for Keegan and that he was unable to iron out the differences, after all he was building a good team and he himself was pleased with a lot of the recruitment to date and I really wish that even when he regarded his position as untenable that he couldn't have said "OK I'm being paid millions this isn't working but I'll stay with the players until a successor is found" thereby avoiding the present shambolic state of affairs.

Sorry you went King Kev, but life WILL go on. We will continue supporting Newcastle, although right now it feels hard to do so, I guess the only reason we're so upset is because we truly love the club.

 

I hope whoever succeeds KK will be given a fair chance by us, the fans, and that he will be able to adapt to the way football seems to be evolving.

 

Does this mean that 95% of managers in this country are yesterday's men too? I'm aware there is a shifting change in football where managers are concerned but in England at least anyway, the DOF role will always be in the minority.

 

KK and this system could and would have worked... until it started to undermine him. That is the real reason why he's not our manager and not this so-called system we have in place. KK would have done the same under any circumstances if he was being undermined as he did in 97 where there was no DOF.

 

And just over a year later, Ray Wilkins left Fulham when he felt he was having his team-selections interferred with by somebody higher up than him...

 

Any factual evidence of this?

 

Would that be the same Wilkins who supported KK as manager of England and who has never had a bad word to say about him?

 

Not that your comments have anything to do with this topic like...

[Optimistic Nut]

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5340758.html

 

RAY WILKINS, you would think, is a natural to be a top football club manager.

 

Erudite, personable and always immaculately turned out, he presents exactly the right sort of public persona.

 

With 84 England caps to his credit during a blue-chip playing career, he would also inevitably command the respect of the players within his scope.

 

Unfortunately for Wilkins, however, it didn't quite happen for him as a manager. At Queens Park Rangers, he would probably admit he was too close to players who had become used to being his team-mates.

 

At Fulham, it was going well enough until Kevin Keegan decided to come on down out of the grandstand and take a more hands-on approach.

 

 

 

If you've got $30 I'll read the rest of the article, but we can see what direction it's going...also,

 

In 1997, Wilkins became the manager of Fulham, with former England teammate Kevin Keegan as "Chief Operating Officer" under him. Wilkins managed to take the big-spending side to the Second Division play-offs, but was sacked by chairman Mohamed Al-Fayed before the first game took place after Fulham lost the last three games of the regular season. Kevin Keegan, who replaced Wilkins, failed in his bid to guide the side through the play-offs that season. The two, once close England team-mates, have had frosty relations since.

 

 

 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5340758.html

 

RAY WILKINS, you would think, is a natural to be a top football club manager.

 

Erudite, personable and always immaculately turned out, he presents exactly the right sort of public persona.

 

With 84 England caps to his credit during a blue-chip playing career, he would also inevitably command the respect of the players within his scope.

 

Unfortunately for Wilkins, however, it didn't quite happen for him as a manager. At Queens Park Rangers, he would probably admit he was too close to players who had become used to being his team-mates.

 

At Fulham, it was going well enough until Kevin Keegan decided to come on down out of the grandstand and take a more hands-on approach.

 

 

 

If you've got $30 I'll read the rest of the article, but we can see what direction it's going...also,

 

In 1997, Wilkins became the manager of Fulham, with former England teammate Kevin Keegan as "Chief Operating Officer" under him. Wilkins managed to take the big-spending side to the Second Division play-offs, but was sacked by chairman Mohamed Al-Fayed before the first game took place after Fulham lost the last three games of the regular season. Kevin Keegan, who replaced Wilkins, failed in his bid to guide the side through the play-offs that season. The two, once close England team-mates, have had frosty relations since.

 

 

 

 

No quotes...

[Optimistic Nut]

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-5340758.html

 

RAY WILKINS, you would think, is a natural to be a top football club manager.

 

Erudite, personable and always immaculately turned out, he presents exactly the right sort of public persona.

 

With 84 England caps to his credit during a blue-chip playing career, he would also inevitably command the respect of the players within his scope.

 

Unfortunately for Wilkins, however, it didn't quite happen for him as a manager. At Queens Park Rangers, he would probably admit he was too close to players who had become used to being his team-mates.

 

At Fulham, it was going well enough until Kevin Keegan decided to come on down out of the grandstand and take a more hands-on approach.

 

 

 

If you've got $30 I'll read the rest of the article, but we can see what direction it's going...also,

 

In 1997, Wilkins became the manager of Fulham, with former England teammate Kevin Keegan as "Chief Operating Officer" under him. Wilkins managed to take the big-spending side to the Second Division play-offs, but was sacked by chairman Mohamed Al-Fayed before the first game took place after Fulham lost the last three games of the regular season. Kevin Keegan, who replaced Wilkins, failed in his bid to guide the side through the play-offs that season. The two, once close England team-mates, have had frosty relations since.

 

 

 

 

No quotes...

 

Fine, have your quotes.

 

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-60928739.html

[Optimistic Nut]

SACKED Fulham boss Ray Wilkins was dismissed by his managerial successor Kevin Keegan and not the London club's owner Mohamed Al Fayed, it has emerged.

 

Keegan says differences of opinion between him and his former England team-mate meant a parting of the ways became inevitable.

 

He said: "It was clear that we did not agree on all team affairs. After that conversation, it was obvious that one of us had to go."

 

 

That wasn't Keegan getting in the way of Wilkins managing was it?

 

And given that it was Keegan that sacked him and not Al Fayed, is it totally unbelievable to think Llambias sacked Keegan and Ashley wasn't aware of it?