Is subbing Martins causing these late reversals?

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Well every club relies on fitness to a certain extent, you can't do anything without fit players. Surely the signs for us on that score aren't too bad at the moment.

 

 

[Optimistic Nut]

My issue isn't with Owen though, it is with Viduka. he does not hold the ball up anymore so why is he being brought on exactly? Leave Owen and Martins on. Simple.

 

Because spaKinnear thinks because he's taller he can automatically hold the ball up better.

 

The change from the first half (pass and move) to the second (hoof the ball up-field at every opportunity) was a disgrace.

 

Tbf, a Christmas tree could hold the ball up better than Martins.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Well every club relies on fitness to a certain extent, you can't do anything without fit players. Surely the signs for us on that score aren't too bad at the moment.

 

 

 

Of course they do but with our small squad and the impending Jan window which could well see a number of our better players being sold and replaced by no-bodies, we rely on the fitness of our players more than most.

 

As for your last point, the injury to Butt and Barton just to name 2 players who are both average Premier League players to start with is a big loss to us which just about sums it up really and highlights the folly in Wise and Co's roles at this club. Having a manager who doesn't know how to use others to try and compensate injuries doesn't help either, i.e. the weekend.

 

If we lose Owen through injury or a sale, we'll be screwed that's how bad it is, and that's just the one player.

 

Given our luck with injuries...

[Isegrim]

My issue isn't with Owen though, it is with Viduka. he does not hold the ball up anymore so why is he being brought on exactly? Leave Owen and Martins on. Simple.

 

Because spaKinnear thinks because he's taller he can automatically hold the ball up better.

 

The change from the first half (pass and move) to the second (hoof the ball up-field at every opportunity) was a disgrace.

 

Tbf, a Christmas tree could hold the ball up better than Martins.

 

This.

 

I wouldn't have taken off Martins in recent games, but I can see the logic behind it. Martins gets far too much adoration for a just ordinary player. He is often wasteful in keeping possession, not something I'd like to rely on in the latter stages of a game. There have been loads of occasions in the past where his poor passing and ball control have resulted in goals conceded. Of course, he has the ability to do something very spectacular, which isn't as often as his fans want one to believe though, but that's not really something you would bank on when you are leading. Keeping the opposition on their back feet is all fine and well, Martins isn't the ideal player for this.

[Optimistic Nut]

Totally agree with that, and I'm sure if we had someone on our books with pace and a brain, then he'd be more inclined to bring Owen off.

[Dave]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was fucking anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

[KaKa]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

[Dave]

Owen and Viduka could work if a system was set up to work around their strengths.

 

The problem here is that Kinnear doesn't know his arsehole from his earhole.

[KaKa]

Owen and Viduka could work if a system was set up to work around their strengths.

 

The problem here is that Kinnear doesn't know his arsehole from his earhole.

 

It could work true, but only with better players I feel. Basically I think a much more talented midfield would be needed to make it work, one with ability, athleticism and pace.

 

With the midfield we currently have, I'm not sure any kind of system could make an Owen and Viduka partnership effective.

[Robster]

The problem here is that Kinnear doesn't know his arsehole from his earhole.

 

[madras]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

[TRon]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was fucking anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Couldn't have said it better. What some people don't seem to realise is, that's it not a case of adoration with Martins, we can all see he's thick, just as we can see that Zog runs into blind alleys. But take them away and you are left with slow, rusty players who bring us to a crawl. I can remember Dalglish building a side which had players like Hamman, Lee, Speed and Shearer, but when he got rid of the flair players with pace like Ginola and Asprilla, the players we were left with were relaiable but blunt instruments.

 

It might well be possible to play Viduka and Owen up front, but not IMO if you are defending on the back foot with eight men back.

[Dave]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

And Viduka has the touch and close control neither of the others have.

 

Here's a novel idea, why not try playing all three?! It's far too positive for Kinnear, that's why.

[TRon]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

[madras]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

[KaKa]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

[madras]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him.

 

did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever.

[KaKa]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him.

 

did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever.

 

This is crazy.

[madras]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him.

 

did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever.

 

This is crazy.

but it's all we have

[TRon]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him.

 

did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever.

 

That's because he isn't that clever, he doesn't have the poacher's instinct that Owen has, by the same token, Owen doesn't have the athleticism or explosive speed that Martins has. Unfortunately we only get pure thoroughbreds on their way down, like Butt, Viduka, Owen and probably plenty more through the years. Put them all into the same team and it's Oscar De Lahoya on a football pitch. The class is still there but the legs aren't.

[madras]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him.

 

did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever.

 

That's because he isn't that clever, he doesn't have the poacher's instinct that Owen has, by the same token, Owen doesn't have the athleticism or explosive speed that Martins has. Unfortunately we only get pure thoroughbreds on their way down, like Butt, Viduka, Owen and probably plenty more through the years. Put them all into the same team and it's Oscar De Lahoya on a football pitch. The class is still there but the legs aren't.

i've said for a while that martins is too polite. he knows he has that speed but feels it is impolite to use it.

[KaKa]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him.

 

did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever.

 

That's because he isn't that clever, he doesn't have the poacher's instinct that Owen has, by the same token, Owen doesn't have the athleticism or explosive speed that Martins has. Unfortunately we only get pure thoroughbreds on their way down, like Butt, Viduka, Owen and probably plenty more through the years. Put them all into the same team and it's Oscar De Lahoya on a football pitch. The class is still there but the legs aren't.

 

Well said.

 

Especially frustrating how managers just can't see past these players' name/history. Yes we all know they have achieved a lot and have been very good players but they are clearly not performing on that level any longer.

[madras]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him.

 

did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever.

 

That's because he isn't that clever, he doesn't have the poacher's instinct that Owen has, by the same token, Owen doesn't have the athleticism or explosive speed that Martins has. Unfortunately we only get pure thoroughbreds on their way down, like Butt, Viduka, Owen and probably plenty more through the years. Put them all into the same team and it's Oscar De Lahoya on a football pitch. The class is still there but the legs aren't.

 

Well said.

 

Especially frustrating how managers just can't see past these players' name/history. Yes we all know they have achieved a lot and have been very good players but they are clearly not performing on that level any longer.

he's actually saying they both have big faults.

[TRon]

Martins was the only one who even had a shot in the second half that I can remember. Viduka has a far better touch but he was f***ing anonymous because the tactics were to blame rather than the personnel. The point is once Martins goes off we've NOTHING by way of forward threat, particularly once we're under pressure. There's no outlet.

 

If he could do all the things we'd like he wouldn't be here in the first place. We can only use who we have, and the only striker with any pace whatsoever is Martins, no matter how poorly you think he uses it.

 

Exactly.

 

As I said previously Martins goals against Tottenham and Blackburn are clear examples.

 

No other striker on our books has that kind of threat, but whatever, lets just convince ourselves he's a neanderthal incapable of dressing himself in the morning.

 

Knowing our rotten luck, the Martins abusers will soon get their wish when he gets injured, then we can all sit back and take in this Owen and Viduka partnership they all crave. Problem is this the year 2008 and not 2000. The ineffectiveness of the partnership would be a shock to the system for you all.

could say owens two goals were an example of his movement and nouse that martins doesn't have.

 

You could also say that Owen's two goals were a result of the pace and movement Martins and Jonas possess but Owen doesn't.

i'd say both goals were as a result of all those things.

 

myself i thought owen was pretty shifty for the second goal,look where he is when martins gets the ball. i also think,as i've seen it too often,if the positions were reversed martins would have used his pace to go near post,making it much harder to get anything out of the situation.

 

espesh on the first goal it was the movement that lead the way for the pass.

 

 

Not sure what you are trying to prove here.

 

If the roles were reversed Owen wouldn't have been able to beat the man out wide to deliver the ball like Martins did.

 

Come on!

what you on about,first off it's andy griffin he's up against and he doesn't get passed him.

 

did you have another look at owens movement for the first goal. i've never seen martins be that clever.

 

That's because he isn't that clever, he doesn't have the poacher's instinct that Owen has, by the same token, Owen doesn't have the athleticism or explosive speed that Martins has. Unfortunately we only get pure thoroughbreds on their way down, like Butt, Viduka, Owen and probably plenty more through the years. Put them all into the same team and it's Oscar De Lahoya on a football pitch. The class is still there but the legs aren't.

 

Well said.

 

Especially frustrating how managers just can't see past these players' name/history. Yes we all know they have achieved a lot and have been very good players but they are clearly not performing on that level any longer.

he's actually saying they both have big faults.

 

It's the same across the squad to be fair, a lot of our players have good attributes but have a vital piece of the jigsaw missing. Guthrie's all round play is good, but in the box he has less impact. Barton's football brain is sharp, without a ball in front of him he's a neanderthal. The list goes on, the only player who could be described as the complete package and at his peak is Given.

[Guest Sniffer]

Vey clear from this thread that most people will agree that martins' game has not improved since he joined us as was mentioned last week. He had better hope that he doesn't have an injury that can take away his extra yard of pace because he has little to offer over and above that.

 

I wonder if he is so dumb that he considers himself the finished article?