Why are England's young managers failing?

[Parky]

 

How England's Euro 96 players failed to take their success into management.

 

Six of England's Euro 96 squad have gone on to become managers, but not one has been an unmitigating success

Sachin Nakrani

 

guardian.co.uk, Monday 9 February 2009 13.14 GMT

 

Tony Adams

 

The man Terry Venables chose to captain England at Euro 96 began his managerial career at Wycombe Wanderers in November 2003. He was unable to prevent the club from being relegated to League Two that season but made a bright start the following campaign - Wycombe were top by the end of August. That did not last for long, however, and following a string of poor defeats, Adams left in November 2004 citing personal reasons. After a spell as a coach at Feyenoord and Utrecht in the Netherlands and as Harry Redknapp's assistant at Fratton Park, he took over as Portsmouth manager in October last year. A run of two wins in 16 matches, though, led to him being sacked. The 42-year-old's poor communication skills were cited as the main reason for the team's decline.

 

Paul Ince

 

Having helped Macclesfield Town avoid relegation from League Two in 2007, Ince became manager of MK Dons at the end of that season and led the club to the top of the same division in September that year. That led to the former Manchester United midfielder being linked with another job promotion, specifically at Wigan Athletic. He stayed at Milton Keynes, though, and led the club to Football League Trophy success in March 2008 and promotion to League One a month later. Following MK Dons' confirmation as champions in May of that year, Ince was once again linked with a bigger job and this time he took up the opportunity, becoming Mark Hughes' successor at Blackburn Rovers in June last year. Ince, having become the first black British manager in the Premier League, started well with a 3-2 win at Everton on the opening day but then won just three matches in 17 games. With rumours rife of player dissatisfaction at the way Ince was running the team, the 41-year-old was sacked in December as Blackburn sat just one place off the bottom.

 

Paul Gascoigne

 

Gascoigne took a measured approach to management by agreeing in July 2005 to become a coach at Algarve United having previously been a player-coach at League Two Boston United. He returned to England soon after to become manager of non-league Kettering Town but it was here that his career began to unravel. The former Tottenham Hotspur midfielder was sacked after just 39 days and six games in charge at Rockingham Road after the club's chairman, Imraan Ladak, accused him of drinking too much. In response, Gascoigne claimed Ladak never left him alone to do the job and on being dismissed, vowed to buy the club. He never did and is now instead recovering from a drink problem and on-going mental health issues.

 

Stuart Pearce

 

Pearce went immediately from playing for Manchester City to coaching the side in 2002 under Kevin Keegan. Three years later, the former full-back then replaced Keegan as caretaker manager and after taking the club to the brink of Uefa Cup qualification, was given the job on a full-time basis in May 2005. City finished 15th the following season, losing nine of their last 10 games, and flirted even closer with relegation the next season, leading to Pearce's dismissal at the end of the 2006-07 season. The 46-year-old was already working as part-time manager of the England Under-21 team and, upon his dismissal at Eastlands, took up the post on a permanent basis. Having led England to the semi-finals of the 2007 Under-21 championships, Pearce has now also led the team to the 2009 European Championships in Sweden following an unbeaten qualifying process.

 

David Platt

 

Having enjoyed a successful playing career there, Platt returned to Italy in 1998 to become head coach at Sampdoria but lasted less than a season in Genoa after fellow Serie A managers complained about the former midfielder not having the required coaching qualifications. He then joined Nottingham Forest in the summer of 1999 following their relegation from the Premier League and led the club to within six points of the Championship play-offs two years later. Forest's form plummeted from therein, though, and he left the City Ground in 2001 to become manager of the England Under-21s. Again the 42-year-old achieved mixed success, qualifying for the 2002 Under-21 championships but failing to repeat the feat two years later. He left shortly after and now works as a television pundit.

 

Gareth Southgate

 

The man who missed that penalty against Germany is into his third season at Middlesbrough and is getting progressively worse. Boro finished 12th in Southgate's first season in charge, 13th last season and are currently 19th having not won in 13 games. The north-east club do, however, remain in the FA Cup.

 

 

Looking at that list I reckon it's because they ultimately know very little about football. Although David Platt should have made it.

[NG32]

Tony Adams - Useless cunt.

 

Paul Ince - tried to take the easy route to the prem and paid the price for his inexperience.

 

Paul Gascoigne  - did anyone really think he would become a manager, let alone a half decent one?

 

Stuart Pearce - Doing well with Englands U21s, found his level.

 

David Platt  - Useless cunt.

 

Gareth Southgate  - Never thought he would become much, spunked 12 million quid Alfonso Bonzo, hes now paying the price.

 

[BlueStar]

Wonder if there are unremarkable English players (or even good english coaches who have never played professionally) who would make excellent managers but are being kept out of jobs because clubs want the a big name and appoint based on past glory and reputation on the pitch rather than if they've actually got a managerial brain.  There's not many great managers English or foreign who were great players.  And some cracking players (cough, Souness) turned into pretty abysmal managers.  Tony Adams was a great defender and even with decent defenders in his squad he had his back line looking like a bunch of schoolkids - even pushing their offside trap up into the opponent's half at one point with predicable results.

[Parky]

Wonder if there are unremarkable English players (or even good english coaches who have never played professionally) who would make excellent managers but are being kept out of jobs because clubs want the a big name and appoint based on past glory and reputation on the pitch rather than if they've actually got a managerial brain.  There's not many great managers English or foreign who were great players.  And some cracking players (cough, Souness) turned into pretty abysmal managers.  Tony Adams was a great defender and even with decent defenders in his squad he had his back line looking like a bunch of schoolkids - even pushing their offside trap up into the opponent's half at one point with predicable results.

 

 

I wonder if these FA coaching badges are anything to do with it?

 

 

[Tooj]

Probably because they're not good enough.

[Parky]

Probably because they're not good enough.

 

I think Platt had the brains to do it.

 

 

Silly thing he did at Samp sitting in the stands instead of taking his Italian badge.

[Parky]

Tony Adams - Useless cunt.

 

Paul Ince - tried to take the easy route to the prem and paid the price for his inexperience.

 

Paul Gascoigne  - did anyone really think he would become a manager, let alone a half decent one?

 

Stuart Pearce - Doing well with Englands U21s, found his level.

 

David Platt  - Useless cunt.

 

Gareth Southgate  - Never thought he would become much, spunked 12 million quid Alfonso Bonzo, hes now paying the price.

 

 

Thinkers make good managers, none of these are really thinkers bar Platt for me.

[NG32]

Tony Adams - Useless c***.

 

Paul Ince - tried to take the easy route to the prem and paid the price for his inexperience.

 

Paul Gascoigne  - did anyone really think he would become a manager, let alone a half decent one?

 

Stuart Pearce - Doing well with Englands U21s, found his level.

 

David Platt  - Useless c***.

 

Gareth Southgate  - Never thought he would become much, spunked 12 million quid Alfonso Bonzo, hes now paying the price.

 

 

Thinkers make good managers, none of these are really thinkers bar Platt for me.

 

To be able to communicate your ideas to your team/squad.

 

Its obvious that most on the list struggle to do that.

 

 

 

 

[Guest ryunufc]

maybe they will enjoy success later on in their career

[NG32]

maybe they will enjoy success later on in their career

 

And why should the media presume that every ex Endland player will make top flight player?

 

 

[NG32]

I seen Tony Adams on, I think MOTD before he was manager of Pompy, Adrian Childs asked him about his shoes, and he said "oh i dont know, Alan Smith helped me get them as i wasn't sure on whats fashionable"

 

If the cunt cant pick a pair of shoes out and dress himsef how the fuck is he supposed to pick a team and tactics for a game in the prem.

[Parky]

I seen Tony Adams on, I think MOTD before he was manager of Pompy, Adrian Childs asked him about his shoes, and he said "oh i dont know, Alan Smith helped me get them as i wasn't sure on whats fashionable"

 

If the cunt cant pick a pair of shoes out and dress himsef how the fuck is he supposed to pick a team and tactics for a game in the prem.

 

The shoes test. 

 

 

Seems to come across as very indecisive.

 

 

Look at some of their peer group Zola, Van Basten, just seem to come across with a lot more credibility.

 

Perhaps the coaching badges should stipulate working abroad for a period??

[NG32]

I seen Tony Adams on, I think MOTD before he was manager of Pompy, Adrian Childs asked him about his shoes, and he said "oh i dont know, Alan Smith helped me get them as i wasn't sure on whats fashionable"

 

If the c*** cant pick a pair of shoes out and dress himsef how the f*** is he supposed to pick a team and tactics for a game in the prem.

 

The shoes test. 

 

 

Seems to come across as very indecisive.

 

 

Look at some of their peer group Zola, Van Basten, just seem to come across with a lot more credibility.

 

Perhaps the coaching badges should stipulate working abroad for a period??

 

 

Well maybe, maybe he should have said "no thank you" to the Pompy board and said "i'm not ready".

 

This could scar him and effect the rest of his career.

 

The quick and easy path.

 

Personally i think he is a usless c*** who was given a job for the boys.

[ikri]

Tony Adams - Decent coach by all accounts, shit manager

 

Paul Ince - Arrogant player, got himself kicked out of Man Utd by getting his own team mates to call him the guvnor.  Had managed to piss off half the Blackburn players very shortly after joining them (allegedly).

 

Paul Gascoigne - The man's barking mad, who in their right mind thought he'd ever be a good manager?

 

Stuart Pearce - Seems to be doing a decent job with the U21's

 

David Platt - Did OK with the U21's, did OK at first with Forest.  Would probably be a decent coach or assistant manager.

 

Gareth Southgate - Reminds me of a young Glenn Roeder, nice guy, shit manager.

 

Not every player is cut out to be a manager.  Some of the world's greatest players have turned out to be abysmally bad managers, possibly because they have such fantastic natural talent they struggle to deal with players who lack the same abilities as they possess.

 

If you want to find a good manager, don't look for those players with any great degree of natural talent, look for the players who have had to work twice as hard to be half as good, the ones who understand that football is a team-based game & not about individuals.

[STM]

In short because they are not good or intelligent enough. It annoys me when i see young english managers in the premiership because i think, who exactly has told them that they are good enough to do it?

 

Most of the best football managers were average players, and some of the very best managers never had great footballing careers.

 

I genuinely believe that alot of fans would make better managers than some ex footballers.

[Disco]

I seen Tony Adams on, I think MOTD before he was manager of Pompy, Adrian Childs asked him about his shoes, and he said "oh i dont know, Alan Smith helped me get them as i wasn't sure on whats fashionable"

 

If the cunt cant pick a pair of shoes out and dress himsef how the fuck is he supposed to pick a team and tactics for a game in the prem.

 

The shoes test. 

 

 

Seems to come across as very indecisive.

 

 

Look at some of their peer group Zola, Van Basten, just seem to come across with a lot more credibility.

 

Perhaps the coaching badges should stipulate working abroad for a period??

 

Van Basten is doing a horrible job at Ajax.

[polpolpol]

The cognitive skills required of a great player – real time non-conscious processing and visualisation – are nothing like the skills needed to conceptualise or enunciate a successful set-up of a football team. To put it another way, you could give Gazza (probably the worst manager of the bunch) half an hour to explain to you how he could make a defence splitting through ball, and he probably wouldn't come close to describing all of the variables that in real time only took him a fraction of a second to calculate.

 

I'd also say that there's definitely a kind of sink or swim thing in being the English style 'total control' manager. When there are so many different skills you need to have, its impossible to know which ex-player will prosper or not. I think a few of the guys from your list took a quasi-mercantalist approach to the clubs they went to and tried to concentrate as much power and responsibility in the hierarchy in their own hands as they could without ever demonstrating that they had the abilities to do every task – Ince particularly.

 

Ex-pros who succeed in management tend to do so when they start under the aegis of an experienced coach – Keegan and Cox – or are immediately integrated in a fixed hierarchy where they have a limited role like the continental club (the French league has heck of record of bringing on ex-players in management).

[Rich]

What a cracking post.

[NG32]

The cognitive skills required of a great player real time non-conscious processing and visualisation are nothing like the skills needed to conceptualise or enunciate a successful set-up of a football team. To put it another way, you could give Gazza (probably the worst manager of the bunch) half an hour to explain to you how he could make a defence splitting through ball, and he probably wouldn't come close to describing all of the variables that in real time only took him a fraction of a second to calculate.

 

I'd also say that there's definitely a kind of sink or swim thing in being the English style 'total control' manager. When there are so many different skills you need to have, its impossible to know which ex-player will prosper or not. I think a few of the guys from your list took a quasi-mercantalist approach to the clubs they went to and tried to concentrate as much power and responsibility in the hierarchy in their own hands as they could without ever demonstrating that they had the abilities to do every task Ince particularly.

 

Ex-pros who succeed in management tend to do so when they start under the aegis of an experienced coach Keegan and Cox or are immediately integrated in a fixed hierarchy where they have a limited role like the continental club (the French league has heck of record of bringing on ex-players in management).

 

Yup.

[Parky]

Tony Adams - Decent coach by all accounts, shit manager

 

Paul Ince - Arrogant player, got himself kicked out of Man Utd by getting his own team mates to call him the guvnor.  Had managed to piss off half the Blackburn players very shortly after joining them (allegedly).

 

Paul Gascoigne - The man's barking mad, who in their right mind thought he'd ever be a good manager?

 

Stuart Pearce - Seems to be doing a decent job with the U21's

 

David Platt - Did OK with the U21's, did OK at first with Forest.  Would probably be a decent coach or assistant manager.

 

Gareth Southgate - Reminds me of a young Glenn Roeder, nice guy, shit manager.

 

Not every player is cut out to be a manager.  Some of the world's greatest players have turned out to be abysmally bad managers, possibly because they have such fantastic natural talent they struggle to deal with players who lack the same abilities as they possess.

 

If you want to find a good manager, don't look for those players with any great degree of natural talent, look for the players who have had to work twice as hard to be half as good, the ones who understand that football is a team-based game & not about individuals.

 

Nice read.

 

 

 

[Parky]

The cognitive skills required of a great player – real time non-conscious processing and visualisation – are nothing like the skills needed to conceptualise or enunciate a successful set-up of a football team. To put it another way, you could give Gazza (probably the worst manager of the bunch) half an hour to explain to you how he could make a defence splitting through ball, and he probably wouldn't come close to describing all of the variables that in real time only took him a fraction of a second to calculate.

 

I'd also say that there's definitely a kind of sink or swim thing in being the English style 'total control' manager. When there are so many different skills you need to have, its impossible to know which ex-player will prosper or not. I think a few of the guys from your list took a quasi-mercantalist approach to the clubs they went to and tried to concentrate as much power and responsibility in the hierarchy in their own hands as they could without ever demonstrating that they had the abilities to do every task – Ince particularly.

 

Ex-pros who succeed in management tend to do so when they start under the aegis of an experienced coach – Keegan and Cox – or are immediately integrated in a fixed hierarchy where they have a limited role like the continental club (the French league has heck of record of bringing on ex-players in management).

 

Post of the day.

[Guest Phil K]

Yep, agree with the praise for the poster there

Absolutely nothing to disagree with and lots to praise.

[Parky]

The cognitive skills required of a great player – real time non-conscious processing and visualisation – are nothing like the skills needed to conceptualise or enunciate a successful set-up of a football team. To put it another way, you could give Gazza (probably the worst manager of the bunch) half an hour to explain to you how he could make a defence splitting through ball, and he probably wouldn't come close to describing all of the variables that in real time only took him a fraction of a second to calculate.

 

I'd also say that there's definitely a kind of sink or swim thing in being the English style 'total control' manager. When there are so many different skills you need to have, its impossible to know which ex-player will prosper or not. I think a few of the guys from your list took a quasi-mercantalist approach to the clubs they went to and tried to concentrate as much power and responsibility in the hierarchy in their own hands as they could without ever demonstrating that they had the abilities to do every task – Ince particularly.

 

Ex-pros who succeed in management tend to do so when they start under the aegis of an experienced coach – Keegan and Cox – or are immediately integrated in a fixed hierarchy where they have a limited role like the continental club (the French league has heck of record of bringing on ex-players in management).

 

 

Although iirc Adams worked around Europe in some other set ups, deffo in Holland and seemed to have something about him. Redknapp probably wasn't the one to take tutelage under as he is what I call a 'natural' and more of a motivator rather than a tactician. See all of these would have gained some good insight if they had worked under the likes of Venables or a Clough as MON did.

 

Begs the question do ex-managers who have had a certain amount of success help in the FA coaching set up?

[Parky]

Actually thinking about it John Barnes is another one.

[polpolpol]

The cognitive skills required of a great player – real time non-conscious processing and visualisation – are nothing like the skills needed to conceptualise or enunciate a successful set-up of a football team. To put it another way, you could give Gazza (probably the worst manager of the bunch) half an hour to explain to you how he could make a defence splitting through ball, and he probably wouldn't come close to describing all of the variables that in real time only took him a fraction of a second to calculate.

 

I'd also say that there's definitely a kind of sink or swim thing in being the English style 'total control' manager. When there are so many different skills you need to have, its impossible to know which ex-player will prosper or not. I think a few of the guys from your list took a quasi-mercantalist approach to the clubs they went to and tried to concentrate as much power and responsibility in the hierarchy in their own hands as they could without ever demonstrating that they had the abilities to do every task – Ince particularly.

 

Ex-pros who succeed in management tend to do so when they start under the aegis of an experienced coach – Keegan and Cox – or are immediately integrated in a fixed hierarchy where they have a limited role like the continental club (the French league has heck of record of bringing on ex-players in management).

 

 

Although iirc Adams worked around Europe in some other set ups, deffo in Holland and seemed to have something about him. Redknapp probably wasn't the one to take tutelage under as he is what I call a 'natural' and more of a motivator rather than a tactician. See all of these would have gained some good insight if they had worked under the likes of Venables or a Clough as MON did.

 

Begs the question do ex-managers who have had a certain amount of success help in the FA coaching set up?

 

Yes, Adams is a strange one. What I'm inclined to think about him is that he was a kind of 'rote' player, who took on board as much as he could from training in terms of positioning and technique and applied them to his game. What I remember of Adams was the he operated like clockwork, and bringing out the defence and keeping a line became send nature to him. Add that to the his bravery and natural ability to defend and he made an inspiring leader on the pitch, but I don't think he was ever a reader of the game in the way that someone like Baresi was.

 

I think if I gave Adams eleven players and said, “make them better at defending”, he'd have the coaching abilities to do that, but if I gave him eleven players and said, “make them into a team” he'd struggle to manage them.