Why are England's young managers failing?

[mrmojorisin75]

erm, wind the clock forward a bit at the "next generation", anyone think any of these will make good managers?:

 

david beckham

gary neville

paul scholes

john terry

fwank lampard

stephen gerrard

david james

 

me either, with the possible exception of gary neville - cunt of a man but i reckon he'll go into coaching with man u and already has the combination of belligerence and intelligence required to make it

[Mowen]

I don't know if he'd ever go into it, but I reckon Scholes might have the ability to do well. I also think Shearer could do well, but he's such a big name that his first job (almost certainly with us) will make or break him. Foreign players who come here are instantly giving themselves more of a chance - learning other cultures, languages and styles can only be beneficial to a prospective manager. To that end Michael Owen could potentially do a good job, but I'm not sure he's got a forceful enough personality.

[mrmojorisin75]

I don't know if he'd ever go into it, but I reckon Scholes might have the ability to do well. I also think Shearer could do well, but he's such a big name that his first job (almost certainly with us) will make or break him. Foreign players who come here are instantly giving themselves more of a chance - learning other cultures, languages and styles can only be beneficial to a prospective manager. To that end Michael Owen could potentially do a good job, but I'm not sure he's got a forceful enough personality.

 

same for scholes imo...

 

wonder how mclaren gets on when he eventually gets back from holland...looks to be doing OK there at the moment, maybe something to be said for going abroad for a different perspective?

[Mowen]

I don't know if he'd ever go into it, but I reckon Scholes might have the ability to do well. I also think Shearer could do well, but he's such a big name that his first job (almost certainly with us) will make or break him. Foreign players who come here are instantly giving themselves more of a chance - learning other cultures, languages and styles can only be beneficial to a prospective manager. To that end Michael Owen could potentially do a good job, but I'm not sure he's got a forceful enough personality.

 

same for scholes imo...

 

wonder how mclaren gets on when he eventually gets back from holland...looks to be doing OK there at the moment, maybe something to be said for going abroad for a different perspective?

 

I'm not sure I agree about Scholes - he's always come across as quite fiery on the pitch, something of a leader, and it isn't always the big talkers who command respect. Could well be wrong, I just reckon he's got something about him.

[ChezGiven]

Pampered over-paid dickfaces rarely make good leaders of men.

[mrmojorisin75]

I don't know if he'd ever go into it, but I reckon Scholes might have the ability to do well. I also think Shearer could do well, but he's such a big name that his first job (almost certainly with us) will make or break him. Foreign players who come here are instantly giving themselves more of a chance - learning other cultures, languages and styles can only be beneficial to a prospective manager. To that end Michael Owen could potentially do a good job, but I'm not sure he's got a forceful enough personality.

 

same for scholes imo...

 

wonder how mclaren gets on when he eventually gets back from holland...looks to be doing OK there at the moment, maybe something to be said for going abroad for a different perspective?

 

I'm not sure I agree about Scholes - he's always come across as quite fiery on the pitch, something of a leader, and it isn't always the big talkers who command respect. Could well be wrong, I just reckon he's got something about him.

 

don't think we'll ever hear from scholes again once he retires...giggs on the other hand perhaps

 

EDIT: can't wait for beckhams attempt to manage though, his mrs doing the kits and that like delia half cut...it'll be fuckin mint

[Parky]

Pampered over-paid dickfaces rarely make good leaders of men.

 

Another totally unwarranted attack on NUSC.

[Parky]

I don't know if he'd ever go into it, but I reckon Scholes might have the ability to do well. I also think Shearer could do well, but he's such a big name that his first job (almost certainly with us) will make or break him. Foreign players who come here are instantly giving themselves more of a chance - learning other cultures, languages and styles can only be beneficial to a prospective manager. To that end Michael Owen could potentially do a good job, but I'm not sure he's got a forceful enough personality.

 

same for scholes imo...

 

wonder how mclaren gets on when he eventually gets back from holland...looks to be doing OK there at the moment, maybe something to be said for going abroad for a different perspective?

 

I'm not sure I agree about Scholes - he's always come across as quite fiery on the pitch, something of a leader, and it isn't always the big talkers who command respect. Could well be wrong, I just reckon he's got something about him.

 

don't think we'll ever hear from scholes again once he retires...giggs on the other hand perhaps

 

EDIT: can't wait for beckhams attempt to manage though, his mrs doing the kits and that like delia half cut...it'll be fuckin mint

 

Sammy Lee springs to mind in this category, seems to have all the tools, but just doesn't have the presence.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Too little ability, too few opportunities, too little time, too much expectation, too much pressure.

[Dr Venkman]

I don't know if he'd ever go into it, but I reckon Scholes might have the ability to do well. I also think Shearer could do well, but he's such a big name that his first job (almost certainly with us) will make or break him. Foreign players who come here are instantly giving themselves more of a chance - learning other cultures, languages and styles can only be beneficial to a prospective manager. To that end Michael Owen could potentially do a good job, but I'm not sure he's got a forceful enough personality.

 

same for scholes imo...

 

wonder how mclaren gets on when he eventually gets back from holland...looks to be doing OK there at the moment, maybe something to be said for going abroad for a different perspective?

 

I'm not sure I agree about Scholes - he's always come across as quite fiery on the pitch, something of a leader, and it isn't always the big talkers who command respect. Could well be wrong, I just reckon he's got something about him.

 

don't think we'll ever hear from scholes again once he retires...giggs on the other hand perhaps

 

EDIT: can't wait for beckhams attempt to manage though, his mrs doing the kits and that like delia half cut...it'll be fuckin mint

 

Sammy Lee springs to mind in this category, seems to have all the tools, but just doesn't have the presence.

 

you could tell from listening to that bloke talk for 5 seconds that he was stupid and wouldnt cut it

[Parky]

I don't know if he'd ever go into it, but I reckon Scholes might have the ability to do well. I also think Shearer could do well, but he's such a big name that his first job (almost certainly with us) will make or break him. Foreign players who come here are instantly giving themselves more of a chance - learning other cultures, languages and styles can only be beneficial to a prospective manager. To that end Michael Owen could potentially do a good job, but I'm not sure he's got a forceful enough personality.

 

same for scholes imo...

 

wonder how mclaren gets on when he eventually gets back from holland...looks to be doing OK there at the moment, maybe something to be said for going abroad for a different perspective?

 

I'm not sure I agree about Scholes - he's always come across as quite fiery on the pitch, something of a leader, and it isn't always the big talkers who command respect. Could well be wrong, I just reckon he's got something about him.

 

don't think we'll ever hear from scholes again once he retires...giggs on the other hand perhaps

 

EDIT: can't wait for beckhams attempt to manage though, his mrs doing the kits and that like delia half cut...it'll be fuckin mint

 

Sammy Lee springs to mind in this category, seems to have all the tools, but just doesn't have the presence.

 

you could tell from listening to that bloke talk for 5 seconds that he was stupid and wouldnt cut it

 

Good coach as part of a team, never a manager in a million years.

[Shearergol]

I still think Paul Ince will make a good manager, once he goes back down the leagues.

[Guest firetotheworks]

They're not failing. They're just seen as being failures at a very early stage.

[Parky]

They're not failing. They're just seen as being failures at a very early stage.

 

Well then I'd say they made the jump to the PL too quick.

 

Personally I think the football education is lacking.

[James]

British management is well and truly on the decline.

 

No half-decent club would appoint a young Bobby Robson today. Especially not after he'd been sacked by west Brom.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

In Italy there are academies for coaches, here there is fuck all. In Spain a lot of coaches start out working with kids, look at Guardiola at Barca, was coaching their bairns, Rafa did the same when he first started out too. Having worked with kids, you learn a great deal about the game and what you think you know about it will often be rethought just by working with kids. I think all coaches in England should do at least 2 years coaching kids (5 year olds etc.), then Academy work, then reserve, then a lower league club, then one day a Prem team maybe. There needs to be a system of producing managers and coaches like there is one for producing players, from grassroots up.

[Guest firetotheworks]

In Italy there are academies for coaches, here there is f*** all. In Spain a lot of coaches start out working with kids, look at Guardiola at Barca, was coaching their bairns, Rafa did the same when he first started out too. Having worked with kids, you learn a great deal about the game and what you think you know about it will often be rethought just by working with kids. I think all coaches in England should do at least 2 years coaching kids (5 year olds etc.), then Academy work, then reserve, then a lower league club, then one day a Prem team maybe. There needs to be a system of producing managers and coaches like there is one for producing players, from grassroots up.

 

Isn't that already the process over here though? Lee Clark for example coaching the youth team, then the reserves and now Huddersfield.

 

The answer may lie in having the academies, if thats whats missing in our country. I still think you can argue that its the nature of the modern game though.

 

Say Tony Adams goes somewhere else now, I think theres a bit of a stigma where people will think he's a failure, rather than giving someone a chance to learn from mistakes. In his case, the mistakes probably werent even his.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

In Italy there are academies for coaches, here there is f*** all. In Spain a lot of coaches start out working with kids, look at Guardiola at Barca, was coaching their bairns, Rafa did the same when he first started out too. Having worked with kids, you learn a great deal about the game and what you think you know about it will often be rethought just by working with kids. I think all coaches in England should do at least 2 years coaching kids (5 year olds etc.), then Academy work, then reserve, then a lower league club, then one day a Prem team maybe. There needs to be a system of producing managers and coaches like there is one for producing players, from grassroots up.

 

Isn't that already the process over here though? Lee Clark for example coaching the youth team, then the reserves and now Huddersfield.

 

He's an exception to the rule. There needs to be a coaching academy like in Italy.

[Parky]

In Italy there are academies for coaches, here there is fuck all. In Spain a lot of coaches start out working with kids, look at Guardiola at Barca, was coaching their bairns, Rafa did the same when he first started out too. Having worked with kids, you learn a great deal about the game and what you think you know about it will often be rethought just by working with kids. I think all coaches in England should do at least 2 years coaching kids (5 year olds etc.), then Academy work, then reserve, then a lower league club, then one day a Prem team maybe. There needs to be a system of producing managers and coaches like there is one for producing players, from grassroots up.

 

Going out on a limb, I'd say the biggest failing is the lack of applied psychology. Something which would deffo be helped in the kind of process you're talking about.

[johnnypd]

it's about communication more than brains, knowing what phrase or posture will get the message across in a pragmatic manner. polpol's example of gazza trying to explain how he made a defence splitting pass in half an hour is a good one, but even if he did have the vocabulary to do that it would mean little, you can't really impart that knowledge in essay-form, if at all. if you want to transmit footballing ideas to players who are thick and intuitive, you have to package the info in a way that they'll understand and process, that will motivate them to learn and improve and respect you.

 

a lot of this stuff comes from natural charisma and authority, no matter how intelligent roeder or southgate might be, the won't be top managers for this reason. whereas if Fergie perhaps isnt as intelligent as some it doesnt matter if he uses the intelligence he does have more effectively. someone like adams who collects ideas and info from around europe might make a good coach but he just has a negative persona and internalises his knowledge and anxiety into ambigious mumbles and reflective pauses which wont make a good manager no matter how well he understands football.

 

say for instance there's a young lad with a lot of talent who thinks he's already made it, how does the manager get the best out of his talent while ensuring that the kid doesnt self destruct due to his ego? someone like Fergie might bring him into the office and say 'you're not good enough, son' and say it with all his stature and authority, knowing that it will shock the kid out of his comfort zone and make him work harder, ensuring that he does actually make the grade. that's being pragmatic. whereas someone like Roeder won't have the nous or authority to deal with a hot head, and just say 'you're good but you need to work on such and such' and launch into an analysis which will basically have no impact whatsoever on the kid other than bore him to sleep. While a Souness type would just see the issue as a battle of egos and it would degrade into a confrontation where a good outcome is measured by kicking a disruptive factor out of a club, in reality everyone loses in that scenario.

 

someone like shearer has the presence to do this but does he have the psychological insight? Martin O'Neill, who studies criminology iirc, is a great example of a psychological manager, lets other staff work on the small quotidian details and he limits his input to important points so that whatever he says or does has impact on the players.

 

and this is before you touch on tactics. english players lack intelligence or vision on the pitch so it is not wonder that they're not exactly masters at influencing the pattern of play as managers.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

it's about communication more than brains, knowing what phrase or posture will get the message across in a pragmatic manner. polpol's example of gazza trying to explain how he made a defence splitting pass in half an hour is a good one, but even if he did have the vocabulary to do that it would mean little, you can't really impart that knowledge in essay-form, if at all. if you want to transmit footballing ideas to players who are thick and intuitive, you have to package the info in a way that they'll understand and process, that will motivate them to learn and improve and respect you.

 

a lot of this stuff comes from natural charisma and authority, no matter how intelligent roeder or southgate might be, the won't be top managers for this reason. whereas if Fergie perhaps isnt as intelligent as some it doesnt matter if he uses the intelligence he does have more effectively. someone like adams who collects ideas and info from around europe might make a good coach but he just has a negative persona and internalises his knowledge and anxiety into ambigious mumbles and reflective pauses which wont make a good manager no matter how well he understands football.

 

say for instance there's a young lad with a lot of talent who thinks he's already made it, how does the manager get the best out of his talent while ensuring that the kid doesnt self destruct due to his ego? someone like Fergie might bring him into the office and say 'you're not good enough, son' and say it with all his stature and authority, knowing that it will shock the kid out of his comfort zone and make him work harder, ensuring that he does actually make the grade. that's being pragmatic. whereas someone like Roeder won't have the nous or authority to deal with a hot head, and just say 'you're good but you need to work on such and such' and launch into an analysis which will basically have no impact whatsoever on the kid other than bore him to sleep. While a Souness type would just see the issue as a battle of egos and it would degrade into a confrontation where a good outcome is measured by kicking a disruptive factor out of a club, in reality everyone loses in that scenario.

 

someone like shearer has the presence to do this but does he have the psychological insight? Martin O'Neill, who studies criminology iirc, is a great example of a psychological manager, lets other staff work on the small quotidian details and he limits his input to important points so that whatever he says or does has impact on the players.

 

and this is before you touch on tactics. english players lack intelligence or vision on the pitch so it is not wonder that they're not exactly masters at influencing the pattern of play as managers.

 

Great post and good insight.

[Ronaldo]

in the case of Ince and Adams it's more a case of inheriting poor/depleted squads than owt else tbh

[Parky]

it's about communication more than brains, knowing what phrase or posture will get the message across in a pragmatic manner. polpol's example of gazza trying to explain how he made a defence splitting pass in half an hour is a good one, but even if he did have the vocabulary to do that it would mean little, you can't really impart that knowledge in essay-form, if at all. if you want to transmit footballing ideas to players who are thick and intuitive, you have to package the info in a way that they'll understand and process, that will motivate them to learn and improve and respect you.

 

a lot of this stuff comes from natural charisma and authority, no matter how intelligent roeder or southgate might be, the won't be top managers for this reason. whereas if Fergie perhaps isnt as intelligent as some it doesnt matter if he uses the intelligence he does have more effectively. someone like adams who collects ideas and info from around europe might make a good coach but he just has a negative persona and internalises his knowledge and anxiety into ambigious mumbles and reflective pauses which wont make a good manager no matter how well he understands football.

 

say for instance there's a young lad with a lot of talent who thinks he's already made it, how does the manager get the best out of his talent while ensuring that the kid doesnt self destruct due to his ego? someone like Fergie might bring him into the office and say 'you're not good enough, son' and say it with all his stature and authority, knowing that it will shock the kid out of his comfort zone and make him work harder, ensuring that he does actually make the grade. that's being pragmatic. whereas someone like Roeder won't have the nous or authority to deal with a hot head, and just say 'you're good but you need to work on such and such' and launch into an analysis which will basically have no impact whatsoever on the kid other than bore him to sleep. While a Souness type would just see the issue as a battle of egos and it would degrade into a confrontation where a good outcome is measured by kicking a disruptive factor out of a club, in reality everyone loses in that scenario.

 

someone like shearer has the presence to do this but does he have the psychological insight? Martin O'Neill, who studies criminology iirc, is a great example of a psychological manager, lets other staff work on the small quotidian details and he limits his input to important points so that whatever he says or does has impact on the players.

 

and this is before you touch on tactics. english players lack intelligence or vision on the pitch so it is not wonder that they're not exactly masters at influencing the pattern of play as managers.

 

Great post and good insight.

 

Very salient point about MON. No doubt he picked up some things from Cloughie who was the master of these moments.

[hakka]

Here's my thoughts.

 

Good players don't automatically make good managers.  I'm a firm believer that if your a new manager that you should start off with a low league side and prove you can be a success with them.  If you can show decent tactical awareness and coach/motivate the players to play decent football and get them promoted over a few years, then it shows you can make a difference with little resources that lower league clubs have available.  Paul Ince should have stayed where he was for a few years and learnt everything about squeezing the best ouf of your squad and about how to deal with the highs and lows in football as a manager.  Tony Adams failed at Wycome so can't understand why Pompey thought he would be ok managing them.

 

In the Premiership it's a different breed of managing than the leagues below.  Quality is everywhere in every Premiership team to a certain degree.  The key is indentifying the best ways to get the best performances out of what you got.  It's also key to install belief and confidence in to each of your players.  Players must believe they can win to squeeze that extra bit out of them.  Look at Hull, yes they are not doing so well now, but they were beating some big teams and even giving Liverpool and Man Utd close scoring games.  A lot of that was confidence and belief imo.

 

Tony Adams for me just looks and sounds like a donkey.  The man doesn't sound like he knows what he is on about.  He must have some abilities, after all he was captain of a very succesful Arsenal team and he did well as a coach.  But being a good manager means you can turn all your football knowledge and skills of communication to getting players to put right their wrongs and to go out on a pitch believing they can win.  Paul Ince had no idea what to do when Blackburn kept losing and losing, because he had never been in that position before or enough to know what it takes to get out of it.  Saying "were shit and we must do better" each week is useless if you don't know why your shit and you aren't getting through to the players to sort out the mistakes.  Even more so when the same teams were pushing for Europe spots the previous season.

 

So the problem is that these ex-players are not learning the managers trade from the bottom up.  They are jumping in with their ego's thinking they can do it at a higher level.  Running before they can walk.  Look at Martin O'Neil.  He started with Wycome, then Leicester for a few years.  Leicester was never the same after he left, look where they are now.  All those years of trying to get the best out of what he had has prepared him to having the experience and knowledge of using better players when he's got them.

[Guest optimistic nit]

ince pearce and platt may yet make good managers imo.