Ability plays little part in how we play the game - a lesson in football (TBC)

[Guest Stephen927]

Shola Ameobi cruises at 20mph in 5th gear.

[Doug]

To cut a long story short,

IMO Shola has all the requisite skill but is too slow and always seems too tired to keep going for 90 minutes.

Players slow with age and we definitely have too many of them, but Shola should be at his peak at the age he is now.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

To highlight the sheer inane and useless nature of it.

 

Like you wanting to be a journalist? Or a football coach?

 

You can't even communicate a message on a forum (see below), how the fuck would you manage in print or with a bunch of kids.

 

Of course Shola had talent, he's compared with Sammi right now talent but insanely inconsistent.

 

 

I fail to see what this achieves bar stating the obvious, every player in the league has talent otherwise they wouldn't be playing in the Premier League

 

 

You do irony too?

 

the players at the top are the ones who use their talent wisely by passing and moving and are able to use their "Footballing Brain" as my Dad would say to create chances and ergo goals.

 

Tell your dad he knows fuck all. Like father like son eh.

[Shearergol]

This thread has the potential to turn Gold. I'll keep bumping it to help it there.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

This thread has the potential to turn Gold. I'll keep bumping it to help it there.

 

Potential?

 

[Guest Stephen927]

http://cache.mediastorehouse.com/preview_183698_0_450x500_0_0__1_000000_2ae8a0ac62fd78b32a609dd021664539.jpg

 

Don't mind me, just driving through.

[Mowen]

This thread has the potential to turn Gold. I'll keep bumping it to help it there.

 

It's certainly got the ability. Has it got the skill and technique? That's the million dollar question.

[Guest Heneage]

To highlight the sheer inane and useless nature of it.

 

Like you wanting to be a journalist? Or a football coach?

 

You can't even communicate a message on a forum (see below), how the f*** would you manage in print or with a bunch of kids.

 

Of course Shola had talent, he's compared with Sammi right now talent but insanely inconsistent.

 

 

I fail to see what this achieves bar stating the obvious, every player in the league has talent otherwise they wouldn't be playing in the Premier League

 

 

You do irony too?

 

the players at the top are the ones who use their talent wisely by passing and moving and are able to use their "Footballing Brain" as my Dad would say to create chances and ergo goals.

 

Tell your dad he knows f*** all. Like father like son eh.

 

 

Ok HTT, you patronizing, twat. I have never started threads on my degree, or my want to be a Football Coach, I in fact contributed to others.

 

Statement one, if you removed you're all knowing head from your anus, and watched the "Academy Reports" on Nufc.co.uk, you would know the head of the academy has compared Sammi Ameobi to his brother Shola. Both have talent, but both are inconsistent players.

 

My second statement, again flawless. It is YOUR definition of talent and ability that falls flat on it's arse. A talent is something we naturally possess, like balancing a spoon on your nose, or in your case being a fundamentally flawed cunt who has a terrible God Complex, believing he must enlighten us all to a game we have been watching for years.

 

You then need the ability to implement your talent. Every player that plays in the Premier League currently holds a "Talent" to play football, otherwise they would be in a 9-5 or sat being a bitter conceited fool on a forum like yourself.

 

As for my Father knowing Fuck All, in that case, Brother is that you? Because the only ill informed fool I see here is you. The argument of a "Football Brain" is justified in my opinion. Of course it is not scientific, but I urge you HTT think of this. Take one of our midfielders,I will use Butt for example. Have you noticed how Gascogine back in his day was able to find players, or pick a pass through a defence that Butt couldn't find with a weeks preparation.

 

Its common sense, some players hold a greater ability to play the ball in different ways than other.

 

I normally didn't see the fuss with you, ignored your posts, and always thought "He's not as bad as is made out." Oh how wrong I was.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

skill ? ability ?......those are your definitions. as for the rest of the post, there is sooo much to pick at but i can't be arsed. i'll limit myself to your last couple of sentences, i doubt any manager/coach or whatever would continue picking someone on the strength of their training ground games when their real games have been so poor.

 

These are not just my definitions. As for the rest of your comments, pick away, I encourage debate and discussion. Regarding your final comments, so why do players like Ameobi keep being picked? Have you ever watched a proper training session, ever conducted one? The better performers in such conditions are often the worst performers on the actual pitch and it is well known that your better players tend to be dismissive of training and most prefer working on their own or in small groups. This is one of the reasons why Ronaldo will come in for "extra" training because then he can do what he wants to do and not endless fitness work, boring drills and meaningless small sided games that are often far too short.

[Pilko]

My thoughts on this thread, and HTT, in pictures.

 

http://www.thespoof.com/sitepics/pdi/271206-4134FakePoo.jpg

 

http://www.freefoto.com/images/11/29/11_29_16---Rubbish-Skip_web.jpg

 

http://www.summersdale.com/images/A-Load-of-bollocks.jpg

 

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/Doc89/NICETHREAD.jpg

 

http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-17713333.jpg?size=67&uid=%7BC4E10163-F359-4B44-B4A6-937BA6C4C7F4%7D

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Ok HTT, you patronizing, t***. I have never started threads on my degree, or my want to be a Football Coach, I in fact contributed to others.

 

Statement one, if you removed you're all knowing head from your anus, and watched the "Academy Reports" on Nufc.co.uk, you would know the head of the academy has compared Sammi Ameobi to his brother Shola. Both have talent, but both are inconsistent players.

 

My second statement, again flawless. It is YOUR definition of talent and ability that falls flat on it's arse. A talent is something we naturally possess, like balancing a spoon on your nose, or in your case being a fundamentally flawed c*** who has a terrible God Complex, believing he must enlighten us all to a game we have been watching for years.

 

You then need the ability to implement your talent. Every player that plays in the Premier League currently holds a "Talent" to play football, otherwise they would be in a 9-5 or sat being a bitter conceited fool on a forum like yourself.

 

As for my Father knowing f*** All, in that case, Brother is that you? Because the only ill informed fool I see here is you. The argument of a "Football Brain" is justified in my opinion. Of course it is not scientific, but I urge you HTT think of this. Take one of our midfielders,I will use Butt for example. Have you noticed how Gascogine back in his day was able to find players, or pick a pass through a defence that Butt couldn't find with a weeks preparation.

 

Its common sense, some players hold a greater ability to play the ball in different ways than other.

 

I normally didn't see the fuss with you, ignored your posts, and always thought "He's not as bad as is made out." Oh how wrong I was.

 

That's better, debating and discussing the points rather than being dismissive as you were in your original reply - hence my "oh do f*** off" response which I shall admit I was a bit OTT with but truthfully I can't be arsed with such s****. Again if you don't like what I post, don't read or better still challenge me and discuss my points as you now have done. Apologies for saying your dad knows f*** all, a football brain as he/you call it is a complex thing as it covers many things however.

 

All footballers need a footballing sense to play, but "footballing brain" in football language usually means "can spot a pass" or something or another just like "talent" means "he can play". No it doesn't hence why I first wanted to talk about talent and the meaning of it and what skill is as well as technique, things that get bundled in together these days or genericalised which I blame modern media for, the dumbing down of the knowledge base and understanding of football among fans, hence "X is f***ing crap, no ability whatsoever" which is common in any discussion about Ameobi for example.

 

The opposite is true. He has more talent in his big toe in terms of football than anyone on this board. If we all understood football better and its many facets we'd be less irrational, more patient and more understanding of what it actually requires to be become a good footballer, a competent one, and with it a good team.

 

They say football is a simple game and it is hence why it is the most popular participant sport in the world but it is anything but a simple game to play and succeed in professionally otherwise all of us would be professional footballers and there would never be just one winner.

 

Regarding the dumbing down of understanding and knowledge of football is something that pisses me off no end, every medium I turn to it exists in abundance, none more so than on here. Now I don't claim to know everything or that what I know is always right or best because I don't it it isn't but I understand football a great deal more than most on here and I would like it if fellow board members and indeed fellow fans were to up their knowledge and understanding which for one would raise the level of debate and discussion on here and secondly maybe just maybe give fans a bit more perspective so when the question of Shola Ameobi for example crops up the general response will not be "he's s***" when in reality he is not a s*** footballer.

 

He's not a very good one either, but why, how, could that change etc. are questions I personally anyway, not only like to ask, but also like to try and answer too as it improves my understanding and knowledge of the game and gives me a greater sense of perspective which as a fan comes in useful when dealing with my emotions.

 

Anyway once again apologies for my petty remarks and insults.

 

Ability is not something we naturally possess, not football ability anyway. It is something that has to be learned or picked up via endless practice in certain conditions. Once that certain level of ability has been gained, that does not qualify you to be able to play football at a professional level. Skill, technique, attitude and a whole range of things are required and essential for all ability to flourish and that's just in an individual sense. As football is a team game you then need a good coach, a good manager, good team-mates, a good environment (I.e. a good club), luck, opposition, fitness, position and so on all play key and important roles far more than ability ever will do.

 

You are not born a driver, you learn to drive. It is the same with football. You're not born with any natural football ability, you pick it up. Those players like Rooney that appear to be natural footballers, it isn't their ability that make them that way, it is their character (where flair comes from) and skills (which is mainly about expression, attempting things) and of course technique (which to use an analogy is all about practice perfect makes perfect practice), i.e. if I keep kicking a ball one way and it doesn't do what I want it to do, I try another way and another until I get the desired effect. It isn't natural though as it is transferable to any walk of life that requires a level of technical competence. If Rooney loved music as much as he loved football, he'd become a technically competent guitar player for example.

 

I know it flies in the face of wisdom but no footballer in terms of ability is a natural, which is actually a good thing because it means any one can achieve a certain level of footballing ability. Many freestylers have just as much football ability as Ronaldinho but what separates him from them is that he can apply his skills under pressure, as an individual and within the context of the team and unlike most freestylers, he has what you would call a footballing brain, i.e football sence. It is debatable whether football sense can be learned or coached or whether it is natural. My own opinion is that it isn't natural in that Ronaldinho was born with it. He wasn't. His "schooling" would have been critical in his learning of football sense, street football culture for example. Not that I'm saying it can be coached, that's a whole different debate.

 

I personally feel it can't, not fully.

 

I'll hand you over to Arsene Wenger - "the game is the best teacher/coach"

 

Regarding your Gazza/Butt comparison. The biggest difference between Butt and Gazza's passing ability is technique. The biggest reason Gazza would play good ball after good ball is because of his technique. If Butt's was much better he'd have the confidence to do the same and his vision (part of footballing sense) would suddenly open up for him rather than be so closed. That said Butt still tries such passes to fans' groaning. That's his footballing sense (vision) opening up, then him trying to apply his skill (the attempt) but being let down badly by technique.

 

Noticed how some of our players rather than playing even pretty straight forward "simple" passes over 20-30 yards would rather run with the ball to close that distance down or play a safe ball than attempting to play the 20-30 yard pass? That's because they have little confidence in their technique nor the will to even try to express themselves in that way, whether they actually have the technique or not.

 

That's what I mean, playing football isn't about ability or even technique and skill at times, its about confidence as much as anything else in a playing sense anyway. A confident player can over perform with even moderate technique, little footballing sense and average skill levels.

 

That will only ever take you so far though as an individual and no team can have too many of these players, if they want to become a better team.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

My thoughts on this thread, and HTT, in pictures.

 

http://www.thespoof.com/sitepics/pdi/271206-4134FakePoo.jpg

 

http://www.freefoto.com/images/11/29/11_29_16---Rubbish-Skip_web.jpg

 

http://www.summersdale.com/images/A-Load-of-bollocks.jpg

 

http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m5/Doc89/NICETHREAD.jpg

 

http://pro.corbis.com/images/42-17713333.jpg?size=67&uid=%7BC4E10163-F359-4B44-B4A6-937BA6C4C7F4%7D

 

Ah my own personal arse wipe has joined in. If I'm the shit you are the shit catcher as you often follow me whenever I take a dump

 

You're wasted packing shelves man.

[Guest Heneage]

While I will admit sheer laziness prevents me from writing an epic response. I will reply to the one point that struck me the most. We have to pick up Football, what about these young wonder kids we see on television? While I agree that like driving we learn to play Football, I would argue we learn the technical aspects of the game. Positional sense, slight adaptations in technique if the player requires it but no major overhaul. Some things just come as natural.

 

A coach can teach a player how to APPLY his skill, but to say that a player can be taught the skill element I have to disagree with. Its very rare these days to find a player in the top league who hasn't played Club football (Sunday League or professional teams youth sides) from a very very young age. Lua Lua is one but where is he now, he had tremendous skill but even then at times had moments of inconsistency.

 

 

 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

While I will admit sheer laziness prevents me from writing an epic response. I will reply to the one point that struck me the most. We have to pick up Football, what about these young wonder kids we see on television? While I agree that like driving we learn to play Football, I would argue we learn the technical aspects of the game. Positional sense, slight adaptations in technique if the player requires it but no major overhaul. Some things just come as natural.

 

A coach can teach a player how to APPLY his skill, but to say that a player can be taught the skill element I have to disagree with. Its very rare these days to find a player in the top league who hasn't played Club football (Sunday League or professional teams youth sides) from a very very young age. Lua Lua is one but where is he now, he had tremendous skill but even then at times had moments of inconsistency.

 

 

 

 

A coach can not really coach or teach a player how to apply a skill or skills, he can only encourage the player to express himself. Of course the player needs inner courage to express himself too.

 

I am not saying skill can be taught either, far from it. Not by a coach anyway. The game itself is the greatest coach or teacher to those would be footballers who have the passion, dedication and attitude as well as certain physiological and physical attributes. Arsene Wenger certainly believes so anyway and I wouldn't argue with him. What he does is encourages, trains and on a tactical level instructs as well as providing his players with a football philosophy.

 

Everything is essentially learned or picked up, whether via the game, a coach or via your self. No-one is born a footballer in the same way no-one is born a plumber. That isn't to say you can't become a footballer or a plumber, you can but very few do not because they lack the ability, but a combination of many other things. Opportunity believe it or not (or lack of) also hinders many would be footballers, mainly all on the pitch related. I.e. an opportunity to learn other roles, to learn from a different system or tactics, or from different coaches and team-mates.

 

Most kids who get interested in football if they want to take it up a step have to get involved with a youth team which means for most, they end up playing in a position that is chosen for them, under a system and tactics that will hardly ever change, with team-mates who likewise have had their roles chosen for them meaning the environment to learn (using Wenger's the game is the best coach theory) is extremely restricted. Then you factor in the fear culture, the play it safe culture, the long ball culture, the winning mentality culture and most kids, even the extremely talented ones, will fail to develop a great footballing sense, high levels of skill and technique. Their attitude though? Those kids would run through brick walls. It is all wrong.

 

I always say to my nephew, forget working hard off the ball, work harder on your skills, your technique, express yourself, say no to "play it safe", "play it long", say no to your coach telling you not to dribble the ball out in your own box or taking players on, do what you want to do on the ball, forget winning or even scoring goals, they are unimportant and for the adults to cheer about, you just have fun with that ball and express yourself. Working hard off the ball isn't about running around a lot, but about understanding space and taking up positions. It pisses me off no end watching a youth game where the winger is being shouted at to get more involved, to work harder... and then shouted at when he isn't in place to receive a ball in space or wide to support. Not that any kid should be restricted to the wing, or full-back, or central midfield etc. Let them play where their mind takes them, not where the mind of an adult feels they ought to be playing because he's been watching football for 30 years. Professional football.

 

Our players have the same level of ability as our foreign counterparts but my their technique, skill level and footballing sense pisses all over ours in the main and that's down to how our kids play football, a mini version of the pro adult game, that and street football culture dying out.

 

Lua Lua is proof that ability can be learned, he picked it up in a few years remarkably but alas had zero footballing sense and that's because nor coach could teach him what the game can, a game he didn't experience long enough in terms of development.

[Pilko]

HTT - you claim to know everything and be an expert on the club. Just because you have a black-and-white picture of a player from the last generation in your avatar does not make you a sage on footballing matters, it makes you a clueless cunt who goes on and on about all forms of bollocks with your stupidly long posts.

 

Go and sit in your Waterworld room, shove a finger up the shark's arse and have a good think about your next inevitably clueless thread.

 

I post "this is shit" in these threads in the hope you'll stop making them btw, it's called "intense negative feedback".

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I really get to you don't I

[Pilko]

Yes, you seem to think that you're not shit. Which is of course wayyyy off.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Yes, you seem to think that you're not s***. Which is of course wayyyy off.

 

Bad day on the shelves?

[Pilko]

Yes, you seem to think that you're not s***. Which is of course wayyyy off.

 

Bad day on the shelves?

 

Going to keep recycling that attempt at a gag? Because it isn't funny, interesting or insightful, much like a lot of your posts.

[Rich]

The attitudes in here from three posters who should know better are killing me. Howay lads man.

 

Hate to see this shit on here.

[Guest Heneage]

Ok HTT I take your point into consideration, but to advise your nephew to do that in my opinion is lunacy. Expressing yourself is not dribbling in your own box. The best players are the ones who know when to be creative, your own box is no this situation. Of course working on your technique etc is important, but so is off the ball, you can have the technique of Van Basten but its wasted if you don't get away from your marker or make space for yourself to play.

 

Similarly its fine for you not to want to him be defined by a position but I also imagine that his physical nature, will define the type of positions he is better at as well as what are his better skills. In my trimmer days I had a good engine could pass and tackle so I played midfield for example.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Yes, you seem to think that you're not s***. Which is of course wayyyy off.

 

Bad day on the shelves?

 

Going to keep recycling that attempt at a gag? Because it isn't funny, interesting or insightful, much like a lot of your posts.

 

But it does get at you

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Ok HTT I take your point into consideration, but to advise your nephew to do that in my opinion is lunacy. Expressing yourself is not dribbling in your own box. The best players are the ones who know when to be creative, your own box is no this situation. Of course working on your technique etc is important, but so is off the ball, you can have the technique of Van Basten but its wasted if you don't get away from your marker or make space for yourself to play.

 

Similarly its fine for you not to want to him be defined by a position but I also imagine that his physical nature, will define the type of positions he is better at as well as what are his better skills. In my trimmer days I had a good engine could pass and tackle so I played midfield for example.

 

He will not be a professional footballer so dribbling inside his own box will not have any impact on anything really, only his fun and freedom of expression so I encourage him to do just that, express himself. By the way those dribbles, 9 times out of 10 they take him down to the other end where he'll either score, set a team-mate up or run out of breath and gets tackled.

 

In general terms, telling a kid not to dribble inside his own box isn't helping that kid to understand football, just puts the fear factor/play it safe mentality into them which inhibits learning and expression (skills). Learn from your own mistakes. If you keep losing the ball by trying to dribble out of your own box you will eventually learn to clear it another way. Likewise if you keep taking the ball down to the other end you'll not just hack it clear. It isn't as if he does try to dribble it every single time anyway, because he plays football the way he sees it and learns from mistakes etc. he can decide perfectly well on his own what to do when he's on the ball.

 

You want to see him though, really skilful and a real joy to watch. Love watching him play. 10 years old, only been playing since he was 7. Scored 32 goals in his first season for his club (at the age of 7) and set up 20 or so more. Won player of the season and was being voted MOTM in every game by opposition coaches. Joined a new club last summer and scored 5 on his debut. Has had scouts watching and various clubs after him. Has lost interest now, he's all for his education (very bright kid, I was talking about the theory of relativity with him this afternoon and he actually explained it all to me! He wants to be a scientist). Still plays but isn't out there playing every day for hours on end. Part of me feels sad about that but he is never going to be a professional footballer in reality or a top one anyway so why dedicate your entire childhood right into your teens when you could put in those hours to schooling, that's the decision he's chosen anyway and good for him. Mind he's in his school team and they have a tournament in Manchester in a few weeks time and of course, goes to Toon games with me and we still have our kick-abouts.

 

Because of his ability I went all serious for a while in terms of coaching, done the badges, had him out coaching him, he doesn't need it, there is nowt I can teach him that the game can't or he himself can't learn nor does the game hold the level of appeal for him over education to justify such amazing dedication levels.

[Guest Stephen927]

I don't mind HTT, least he posts about something other than finances which is refreshing around this place.

[Neil]

I don't mind HTT, least he posts about something other than finances which is refreshing around this place.

 

Same, forums aren't meant to be a place where everyone agrees, surely.

 

Pretty scathing though to say someone's dad who has a lot of footballing-related experience "knows f*** all".

 

Otherwise, the debate is healthy.