thomas Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 TBF - theres been very few WANTING top be managers, and that won't help. I do wonder if that's down to actively (racially motivated) being dissuaded from doing so throughout their career or kind of a passive, culturally ingrained tendency not to seek out such things. I think it's a deeper problem with society and the current+last generation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keefaz Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Black managers have had managerial jobs, and TBH - hardly shone. A brief period of grace for Paul Ince maybe, and Barnes was awful himself. There may well be a little racism in it, but it would be from the players not the clubs or fans - with their seeming reluctance to perform. But you're talking about one man here. There should be dozens of black managers. A black David Moyes, a black Chris Coleman, a black Gareth Southgate, a black Aidy Boothroyd, etc. But they've got to do it given the chance, and so far they haven't. TBF - theres been very few WANTING top be managers, and that won't help. Tbh, I have no idea how many black players have ambitions to become managers, and I doubt you know any better. As I said, it's more likely to be a complex issue rather than simple discrimination. To say they've been 'given the chance' is bullshit, tbh: you're talking about two or three black managers who have failed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil K Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Tbh, I have no idea how many black players have ambitions to become managers, and I doubt you know any better. As I said, it's more likely to be a complex issue rather than simple discrimination. To say they've been 'given the chance' is bullshit, tbh: you're talking about two or three black managers who have failed. 100% failure rate is STILL 100% failure rate Not quite actually. Paul Ince did well at first, and Barnes had some good ideas. With other managers, it always seems it isn't the "stars" that become great managers anyway. So maybe concentrating on footballers that have done well isn't the way for black managers. Like everyone else, its a case of getting their foot in the door. But with clubs under more pressure than ever, they have to be careful. "Noble experiments" are NOT at the top of the list. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Is it not more a case of black footballers not going on to become managers ? I know a few are now doing coaching like Les Ferdinand but not sure how many are becoming managers. It is possible to be a Premier League manager and be black, Ruud Gillit although incompetent at us won Chelsea's first trophy for twenty odd years when he was manager there, and like has already been said Paul Ince was given a top flight job. The problem isn't the colour of their skin it's their ability as a manager. Paul Ince was given a top job far to early and proved that by his ability at Blackburn. Ince and Barnes are a complete red herring though because they have been able to use their playing career to open doors. Where is the black David Moyes for example? Keith Alexander. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
midds Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Wonder what Shak has to say about the dearth of black men managing football clubs... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keefaz Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Tbh, I have no idea how many black players have ambitions to become managers, and I doubt you know any better. As I said, it's more likely to be a complex issue rather than simple discrimination. To say they've been 'given the chance' is bullshit, tbh: you're talking about two or three black managers who have failed. 100% failure rate is STILL 100% failure rate Not quite actually. Paul Ince did well at first, and Barnes had some good ideas. With other managers, it always seems it isn't the "stars" that become great managers anyway. So maybe concentrating on footballers that have done well isn't the way for black managers. Like everyone else, its a case of getting their foot in the door. But with clubs under more pressure than ever, they have to be careful. "Noble experiments" are NOT at the top of the list. No idea what point you're trying to make here, tbh. Are you saying black managers must be shit because Paul Ince and John Barnes failed? Think about the dozens of managers in the football league: what percentage are black? Why is it such a low number? Look past the PL and consider why even at conference level there aren't more black managers. Given the proportion of black players in the game, doesn't it seem strange? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MW Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Could it be that black players (normally) are far more athletic n therefore white players need a better knowledge of the game to make up for it, therefore making them better managers? Or is that generalization complete bollocks and racist? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delima Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 But while his ability on the field of play – he helped Liverpool to their last league title 20 seasons ago – gave Barnes the last word against those who heaped vitriol upon him, a dozen attempts to get jobs in management since Celtic sacked him (after the club's Scottish Cup defeat by Inverness Caledonian Thistle) have failed to elicit a single interview and none of the Premier League clubs he has approached, supported by recommendations from Graham Taylor, Sir Bobby Robson and Terry Venables, have responded to him. White managers would have had been given another chance, Barnes said. Here is my take. Granted I knew very little about how manager-recruiting works in the football world, so I am probably talking bollocks. A dozen attempts and failing to elicit a single interview does not sound harsh to me. In non-football life you could easily have applied for 20 jobs and be interviewed only once. Football manager is a highly sought after job. Every Premiership club seems to claim to receive more than 20 world class applications for any managerial vacancy, and John Barnes is no where remotely near world class as a manager. Premiership clubs tend to recruite high calibre manager, manager with good potential, or coach from within, none of which John Barne is. There are plenty of other white managers who have much better track records but are toiling in the lower leagues. Danny Wilson springs to my mind. It is true that black managers are under-represented in the football and I do think that there exist some institutional racism. However I do not think it is true for John Barnes. John Barnes as a football pundit or presenter does not inspire any confidence from anyone. I highly doubt that anyone who has watched John Barnes presenting on TV would give him a managerial job. Wenger - came with a pedigree O'Neill - came with a pedigree McLeish - came with a pedigree Allardyce - came with a pedigree Megson - A bit shit, but his shit CV is better than John Barnes' Coyle - won promotion with Burnley. Came with a pedigree when appointed Ancellotti - came with a pedigree Moyes - came with a pedigree Hodgson - came with a pedigree Brown - won promotion with Hull. When appointed was an assitant to a sucessful Allardyce Benitez - came with a pedigree Hughes - came with a pedigree Ferguson - came with a pedigree Hart - promoted from within Pulis - history with Stoke Bruce - came with a pedigree Redknappe - came with a pedigree Zole - Italian (DOF is Italian), great player, new and fresh Martinez - came with a pedigree. History with club. McCarthy - won promotion with club. When appointed, had proven record in Championship level. I can't see which club would have appointed Barnes ? West Ham ? Zola was untainted, fresh, Italian and foreign (new ideas, different cultures) - he is a better choice than Barnes. I do think there are still some underlying institutional racism which unfortunately is almost impossible to eradicate in any field of life, however I do not think that Barnes has been unfairly treated as a managerial candidate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Granted I knew very little about ... football ... I am ... talking bollocks. Finally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keefaz Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 The fact is, that Barnes hasn't got a PL job because he's done nowt to prove he's worthy of a PL job. Speaking on a purely individual level, he's got nowt to bitch about just because he has to work his way up for lowly Tranmere. The wider issue of having so few black managers in the game remains, however. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delima Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Could it be that black players (normally) are far more athletic n therefore white players need a better knowledge of the game to make up for it, therefore making them better managers? Or is that generalization complete bollocks and racist? I think this generalisation is completely bollocks and racist. It is easy to focus on Ronaldinho's quick feet but how many of us are intelligent enough to appreciate his intelligent throughball, intelligent passing, intelligent ball placing, intelligent movement, intelligent mind games with defenders ? Take England national team for example. I don't think anyone would say that black players are under-represented in England national team. Paul Robinson, Robert Green, Joe Hart Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, John Terry, Wayne Bridge, Glen Johnson, Matthew Upson, Joleon Lescott, David Beckham, Frank Lampard, Gareth Barry, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Michael Carrick, Theo Walcott, Ashley Young, James Milner Emile Heskey, Jermain Defoe, Carlton Cole, Wayne Rooney Rio Ferdinand, Ashley Cole, Glen Johnson, Joleon Lescott, Shaun Wright-Phillips, Theo Walcott, Ashley Young Emile Heskey, Jermain Defoe, Carlton Cole With the possibility of Carlton Cole, I don't think anyone can claim to be included because of his atheletic-ness ? A manager needs to have leadership abilities. Fantastic players, fantastic captains do not necessary make a fantastic manager but vast majority of managers have been captains in their playing careers, or have been an influential player. And ex-captains are always commodities in the managerial market. Leaders tend to be from the majority, although unsubstantiated I would hazard a guess the captain proportionity in tilting towards the "white" players. Naturally there would be less "hot prospect" black managers. Ince was a captain player, and he was reasonably highly sought after. I can't recall John Barnes being captain of any team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 What probably does make it difficult for the black managers at the higher levels is how appointments tend to be made at this level. Looking at the Premier League managers from this season and last season, you've got: Long established managers from 20th Century - Ferguson, Keegan, Redknapp, Hodgson, O'Neill, Curbishley Foreign Contingent - Wenger, Benitez, Ancelotti, Hiddink, Scolari, Ramos Established Premier League Journeymen - Allardyce, Bruce, McCarthy, Hughes Spotted in the lower leagues - Moyes, Martinez, Ince Promoted from lower leagues - Brown, Mowbray, Pulis, Coyle, McLeish Big name, first job - Shearer, Keane, Southgate, Adams, Zola Caretaker getting the gig - Sbragia, Hart, Hughton, Kinnear So basically at least eleven managers were already obvious choices based on their track record. Keane aside, Shearer, Southgate and Adams were obvious newcomer appointments, as were three of the four caretaker ones. It is the fresh supply of newer managers in the Allardyce, Moyes and Brown groups which is questionable. Ince aside, who probably got the initial opportunity based on his playing career, they are all white. So the question really is: why aren't black managers getting jobs in the Championship? Perhaps it has something to do with how these clubs think a manager should be, i.e. a typical British bulldog, captain type, shouter, for this seems to very much be the white stereotype in the lower leagues. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delima Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Granted I knew very little about ... football ... I am ... talking bollocks. Finally. Thanks for your kindness, Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonTastic Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Ok could it maybe be numbers ? yes I know we currently have plenty of black players in the leagues but lets remember we still have many more white footballers. They can't all make it as managers so simple numbers would suggest your going to get alot more white managers than black at the current time. On top of that many of the current black top flight players are also foreign. Whilst they may play football here what's to say they want to manage here ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keefaz Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Ok could it maybe be numbers ? yes I know we currently have plenty of black players in the leagues but lets remember we still have many more white footballers. They can't all make it as managers so simple numbers would suggest your going to get alot more white managers than black at the current time. On top of that many of the current black top flight players are also foreign. Whilst they may play football here what's to say they want to manage here ? 20% of players in the Football League are black, but only 1% of the coaches are. Edit: at least that was in the case in 2007: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/6376121.stm Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Snrub Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Leroy Rosenier, recently managed Brentford and Torquay. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keefaz Posted August 18, 2009 Share Posted August 18, 2009 Leroy Rosenier, recently managed Brentford and Torquay. http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/6606/903congratstoken.jpg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 sacked again, another good player that's a shit manager, for me being a good player doesn't make you a good manager Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
merlin Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Brazil, one of the most multicultural nations on earth, has not got(or ever had, as far as I know) a black manager - you can bet your life that had a black guy like Pele proved to be a top class manager, they would have appointed him. Barnes' rant is yet more reverse-racist blackmail. As people have said, Ince had a go and fluffed it ; doesn't mean ALL black players will be bad managers but I don't believe Barnes has a case. Time all this tripe was treated with the contempt it deserves TBH. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 this reminds me of the black player rule in cricket in SA, which forced KP to come over to england in these days, ppl should be judged on ability Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest toonlass Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Chris Hughton is flying the banner for black managers in the championship then. Two manager of the month awards and he is not even a manager. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Did he win it for September as well? I had a feeling they'd give it to Holloway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueStar Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 There's a similar situation in american football, especially at college level. Loads of black players, practically zero black people in coaching positions. http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3686028&campaign=rss&source=NCFHeadlines Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frazzle Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 sacked again, another good player that's a s*** manager, for me being a good player doesn't make you a good manager That's obvious surely? The same way being a rubbish player doesn't make you a good manager either. Good managers are good managers, regardless of how good they were in their playing careers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted October 9, 2009 Share Posted October 9, 2009 Did he win it for September as well? I had a feeling they'd give it to Holloway. yeah he did, hence why we didn't win v bristol city Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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