The old Chris Hughton discussion thread

[johnnypd]

Good posts by UV however there's more criticism of him than simply pointing to starting elevens so it is essentially a bit of a straw man argument. What happens on the pitch is the result of far more than simply putting XI players in a formation - anyone can do that. You have to look at the style and balance of play, do we look coherent, do our players complement each other, do we have good partnerships on the pitch, is each player confident doing their job, are we effectively covering our weaknesses. basically - do we look better than the sum of our parts?

 

These are all things that must be worked on over a length of time on the training pitch. While we can't see what happens at Benton we can judge their effects by watching the games.

 

UV suggests that we are top because of the "balls pumped down the middle" strategy as if we'd mastered that tactic. But we're actually shit at it. As a side we have no definite style that we play successfully - and i don't mean playing attractive football. Stoke are a brilliant example of a side set up in the manager's vision, every player knowing his job, working well with team-mates, each helping to cover the other's weaknesses and to take advantage of each other's strengths. As a result, they, as a side, look better than the sum of their parts. it is ugly football but it is effective. We're not top because of playing long ball - when we do that we end up giving away possession, Carroll or Shola clumsily heading to opponents or missing headers altogether, fat tubs of lard like Smith and Nolan frequently miles away from making supporting runs. The long ball stuff hasn't seen us score many, iyam. in fact we tend to look far more dangerous up front and compact as a unit when we get it on the floor, pass it around and emphasise the fact that Nolan, Jonas, Guthrie, Loven, Enrique, Colo etc are actually good footballers. We basically don't have any particular methods of play that we can fall back on and there are only a few successful partnership in our side - for instance between Jonas and Enrique, that look like they are borne of personal initiative rather than input from the manager.

 

For me we are not top because of any managerial impetus that Hughton has given the side but because we have the following inherent advantages in the Championship: A/ we have a far superior defence than any other side in the league, B/ we have more players with end product (the likes of Nolan, Shola, Guthrie) and C/ because the quality of this league is shite, teams gift us easy chances and can't finish their own. It's not only WBA or Forest that dominate the general play in our matches, it's also the likes of Leicester, even down to 10 men.

 

The matter with Hughton is not so much getting rid of him now, that's not going to happen, but replacing him when we go up. it is fair enough to give him credit for being top, the morale of the side looks good, we're not easily beaten, and Hughton does have some good elements to his approach, for instance making better substitutions than many of his predecessors (for instance i praised the Pancrate substitution as it gave us pace and balance). My criticisms are more based on looking for positives and negatives in the event of promotion, ie the style of play and so on, and these will prove incredibly important when all the inherent advantages of being in the championship disappear into thin air. You have to look beyond the immediate league position and analyse the strengths and weaknesses that we'll take with us into next season and it doesn't look particularly encouraging on that basis. That's if we do go up at all.

 

The one thing I will give Hughton benefit of the doubt over is that these aren't his players so we'll see how he improves the side now that Best, Routledge ,VA are ready to come into the side.

[Parky]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

[STM]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

[TheGuv]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

We've also never outplayed anybody either...

[Parky]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

[STM]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

 

It seems to me that a team which is outplayed constantly wouldn't be top of the league. I don't give a fuck how much pressure we are under, i care about results.

 

We can have one shot on target in every game all season if it means we are top of the league.

[STM]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

We've also never outplayed anybody either...

 

How can you be top of the league and not outplay anyone? nonsense.

 

If you are saying teams have had more possession and had more shots fair enough but that is not what you are saying.

 

[Parky]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

 

It seems to me that a team which is outplayed constantly wouldn't be top of the league. I don't give a fuck how much pressure we are under, i care about results.

 

We can have one shot on target in every game all season if it means we are top of the league.

 

Agree promotion is the key. But if we carry over the level of management we are under now we're coming straight back down. CH isn't really manager material and he has the job due to the well documented mismanagement of the club by MA and for no other reason. I'll bet you anything, one way or another he won't be in charge by Christmas.

[Guest optimistic nit]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

 

It seems to me that a team which is outplayed constantly wouldn't be top of the league. I don't give a fuck how much pressure we are under, i care about results.

 

We can have one shot on target in every game all season if it means we are top of the league.

 

in a large percentage of the games i've watched this season that we've won the score could have been a hell of a lot different if the team took their chances. while we may be able to get away with letting teams have good chances in this league we will be murdered for it in the premiership.

[Stu]

Completely lost faith after that apalling selection at the weekend. Jury was still out me with hughton until that. The man doesn't have the ability to identify the best 11 for the job

 

I think it's ridiculous how much Hughton's tactics are being criticised tbh. I laughed at the naivety of it before, but it really does seem like a lot of people think it's as simple as putting (what they think is) the best 11 players on the pitch at the same time all the time. This gives absolutely no consideration to the fact that the manager has far more information about the players to go on than we do. He sees how they perform in training, no doubt trying different formations, he gets fitness reports on them, he should even give consideration to their mental state and what's going on in their personal life. He also has to try and balance playing the best team every week with rotating things to make sure the same players don't wear themselves out over a long season and that fringe players are not frozen out. We've got 5 games in 16 days coming up next, but I guess that won't come into the equation when people convince themselves the 11 players they put in a formation on a message board would have played beautiful flowing football and won every game 4-0.

 

The fact is Hughton has very limited options to change things in any significant way as the players we have are limited in their ability. We've been very limited in terms of numbers in wide players, and in central midfield they are all much of a muchness except that Nolan has a knack of scoring goals. The players are good enough to get results in this league in the style we've been playing, but no way in the world is it going to be pretty no matter who plays or how they line up, and if we did try to change it there's absolutely no guarantee that "better" football would even maintain the same level of results let alone improve them.

 

 

Here's some of my favourites from the crap that comes out:

 

"He'll never drop Butt" changed immediately to "he'll never drop Smith/Nolan" once he did in fact drop Butt. I'm not sure who exactly is supposed to play in midfield once we drop Butt, Nolan and Smith. Guthrie and Vuckic I suppose, even though Guthrie's been equally poor when played central and hardly anyone's seen anything of Vuckic so he obviously "must be better".

 

Lovenkrands dad died and because soon after he played one game and scored, that's all gone away and he should be playing week in week out again without a care in the world.

 

"Why didn't he play <insert recently or even currently injured player>?" which of course would turn into "Why did he play <insert previously injured player> rushing him back too soon?" if any player who's been injured in the last month gets injured again.

 

"When player X came on he changed the game". Of course this is used not as a compliment of a good substitution that a player was saved to be fresh coming on against a tired defence/midfield, but as a criticism that the player should have played from the start (where he may well have been far less effective pacing himself for a full game and up against a fresh defence).

 

 

I swear even if Wenger or Ferguson were manager half of you would be criticising their tactics week in week out.

 

This is without a doubt the best post I've ever read of yours, usually we're not on the same wavelength but this is spot-on.

[STM]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

 

It seems to me that a team which is outplayed constantly wouldn't be top of the league. I don't give a fuck how much pressure we are under, i care about results.

 

We can have one shot on target in every game all season if it means we are top of the league.

 

Agree promotion is the key. But if we carry over the level of management we are under now we're coming straight back down. CH isn't really manager material and he has the job due to the well documented mismanagement of the club by MA and for no other reason. I'll bet you anything, one way or another he won't be in charge by Christmas.

 

Hughton won't be in charge by christmas. However, i think it will be partly because of poor managment but primarily because the fans won't give him a chance. If he was a foreign coach with an exotic name, we would not even be talking about the possibility that he should leave/be sacked.

[Parky]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

 

It seems to me that a team which is outplayed constantly wouldn't be top of the league. I don't give a fuck how much pressure we are under, i care about results.

 

We can have one shot on target in every game all season if it means we are top of the league.

 

in a large percentage of the games i've watched this season that we've won the score could have been a hell of a lot different if the team took their chances. while we may be able to get away with letting teams have good chances in this league we will be murdered for it in the premiership.

 

Yup.

[ElDiablo]

He needs to start wearing a suit for games. If he does I'm confident of us going up. If not, well...

[STM]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

 

It seems to me that a team which is outplayed constantly wouldn't be top of the league. I don't give a fuck how much pressure we are under, i care about results.

 

We can have one shot on target in every game all season if it means we are top of the league.

 

in a large percentage of the games i've watched this season that we've won the score could have been a hell of a lot different if the team took their chances. while we may be able to get away with letting teams have good chances in this league we will be murdered for it in the premiership.

 

I agree with you but i will discuss that problem when/if we go up.

 

By the way, there are plenty of team's who play a similar style in the premiership, not that our fans will except it.

[UV]

UV suggests that we are top because of the "balls pumped down the middle" strategy as if we'd mastered that tactic. But we're actually shit at it.

 

I was simply parroting Parky's assessment of our tactics there tbh.

 

I have absolutely no problem with well argued critiques like you give yourself, it just seemed like this thread had descended into a match thread type slag fest with no thought whatsoever going into the criticisms.

 

It goes without saying that the defending has set us apart in this league and is the main reason we are top. However if we blamed the midfield for poor defending last year you can't just ignore it as part of the improvement this season, and part of that is the coaching and tactics. We also have the 4th highest number of goals for. That has to come from somewhere and it can't just be from Nolan, Shola & Guthrie creating goals out of nothing and being lethal in front of goal, they're not the players you would have said that about before the season started. In fact a lot of the criticism Hughton is getting is from playing Nolan at all and from having Guthrie on the wing where he is getting his assists and goals.

 

The team we have CAN play good football and we've seen it on occasion, however I think the main problem is that they just don't have the stamina to sustain it for much of the game, especially the central midfielders which are the key to it. I suppose you could blame Hughton for the fitness of the players, but generally I think it's just an inherent failing in those players and there's not a lot you can do about it.

 

FWIW I have my doubts about Hughton myself, but I'm more concerned about his potential ability to motivate the players when things aren't going so well than his tactics. I'd be much happier if he was the assistant manager.

[STM]

UV suggests that we are top because of the "balls pumped down the middle" strategy as if we'd mastered that tactic. But we're actually shit at it.

 

I was simply parroting Parky's assessment of our tactics there tbh.

 

I have absolutely no problem with well argued critiques like you give yourself, it just seemed like this thread had descended into a match thread type slag fest with no thought whatsoever going into the criticisms.

 

It goes without saying that the defending has set us apart in this league and is the main reason we are top. However if we blamed the midfield for poor defending last year you can't just ignore it as part of the improvement this season, and part of that is the coaching and tactics. We also have the 4th highest number of goals for. That has to come from somewhere and it can't just be from Nolan, Shola & Guthrie creating goals out of nothing and being lethal in front of goal, they're not the players you would have said that about before the season started. In fact a lot of the criticism Hughton is getting is from playing Nolan at all and from having Guthrie on the wing where he is getting his assists and goals.

 

The team we have CAN play good football and we've seen it on occasion, however I think the main problem is that they just don't have the stamina to sustain it for much of the game, especially the central midfielders which are the key to it. I suppose you could blame Hughton for the fitness of the players, but generally I think it's just an inherent failing in those players and there's not a lot you can do about it.

 

FWIW I have my doubts about Hughton myself, but I'm more concerned about his potential ability to motivate the players when things aren't going so well than his tactics. I'd be much happier if he was the assistant manager.

 

Once again a fine post UV.

 

Some claim: "the only reason we are top is because of our defence", as if the defence isn't a valid part of a team.

 

West Brom are only third because of their attack.

[johnnypd]

UV suggests that we are top because of the "balls pumped down the middle" strategy as if we'd mastered that tactic. But we're actually shit at it.

 

I was simply parroting Parky's assessment of our tactics there tbh.

 

I have absolutely no problem with well argued critiques like you give yourself, it just seemed like this thread had descended into a match thread type slag fest with no thought whatsoever going into the criticisms.

 

It goes without saying that the defending has set us apart in this league and is the main reason we are top. However if we blamed the midfield for poor defending last year you can't just ignore it as part of the improvement this season, and part of that is the coaching and tactics. We also have the 4th highest number of goals for. That has to come from somewhere and it can't just be from Nolan, Shola & Guthrie creating goals out of nothing and being lethal in front of goal, they're not the players you would have said that about before the season started. In fact a lot of the criticism Hughton is getting is from playing Nolan at all and from having Guthrie on the wing where he is getting his assists and goals.

 

The team we have CAN play good football and we've seen it on occasion, however I think the main problem is that they just don't have the stamina to sustain it for much of the game, especially the central midfielders which are the key to it. I suppose you could blame Hughton for the fitness of the players, but generally I think it's just an inherent failing in those players and there's not a lot you can do about it.

 

FWIW I have my doubts about Hughton myself, but I'm more concerned about his potential ability to motivate the players when things aren't going so well than his tactics. I'd be much happier if he was the assistant manager.

 

Fair enough. I also agree about motivation, though that's not been too much of a problem this season. Morale looks high and, at the very least, Hughton's not done anything stupid of the Souness or Allardyce variety such as alienate players or descend into petty rivalries with them.

[Jayson]

I think people get far to Harsh far to quickly. Its the same with the players & the manager.

 

Its far easy to form a quick negative view of someone for most, than to sustain a positive one & accept that it may not constantly be perfect.

[JH]

'perfect' - I'd take average right now man.

[Parky]

UV suggests that we are top because of the "balls pumped down the middle" strategy as if we'd mastered that tactic. But we're actually shit at it.

 

I was simply parroting Parky's assessment of our tactics there tbh.

 

I have absolutely no problem with well argued critiques like you give yourself, it just seemed like this thread had descended into a match thread type slag fest with no thought whatsoever going into the criticisms.

 

It goes without saying that the defending has set us apart in this league and is the main reason we are top. However if we blamed the midfield for poor defending last year you can't just ignore it as part of the improvement this season, and part of that is the coaching and tactics. We also have the 4th highest number of goals for. That has to come from somewhere and it can't just be from Nolan, Shola & Guthrie creating goals out of nothing and being lethal in front of goal, they're not the players you would have said that about before the season started. In fact a lot of the criticism Hughton is getting is from playing Nolan at all and from having Guthrie on the wing where he is getting his assists and goals.

 

The team we have CAN play good football and we've seen it on occasion, however I think the main problem is that they just don't have the stamina to sustain it for much of the game, especially the central midfielders which are the key to it. I suppose you could blame Hughton for the fitness of the players, but generally I think it's just an inherent failing in those players and there's not a lot you can do about it.

 

FWIW I have my doubts about Hughton myself, but I'm more concerned about his potential ability to motivate the players when things aren't going so well than his tactics. I'd be much happier if h

 

e was the assistant manager.

 

Why not just post the last para and save the essays? Nobody will read all of that. You're concerned about his "potential ability to motivate the players"....!!! Wake the fuck up. He'll be out on his ear after 12 games the most in the PL.

[Parky]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

 

It seems to me that a team which is outplayed constantly wouldn't be top of the league. I don't give a fuck how much pressure we are under, i care about results.

 

We can have one shot on target in every game all season if it means we are top of the league.

 

in a large percentage of the games i've watched this season that we've won the score could have been a hell of a lot different if the team took their chances. while we may be able to get away with letting teams have good chances in this league we will be murdered for it in the premiership.

 

I agree with you but i will discuss that problem when/if we go up.

 

By the way, there are plenty of team's who play a similar style in the premiership, not that our fans will except it.

 

Is that what you do in real life, deal with problems at the last minute?? Christ.

[STM]

UV suggests that we are top because of the "balls pumped down the middle" strategy as if we'd mastered that tactic. But we're actually shit at it.

 

I was simply parroting Parky's assessment of our tactics there tbh.

 

I have absolutely no problem with well argued critiques like you give yourself, it just seemed like this thread had descended into a match thread type slag fest with no thought whatsoever going into the criticisms.

 

It goes without saying that the defending has set us apart in this league and is the main reason we are top. However if we blamed the midfield for poor defending last year you can't just ignore it as part of the improvement this season, and part of that is the coaching and tactics. We also have the 4th highest number of goals for. That has to come from somewhere and it can't just be from Nolan, Shola & Guthrie creating goals out of nothing and being lethal in front of goal, they're not the players you would have said that about before the season started. In fact a lot of the criticism Hughton is getting is from playing Nolan at all and from having Guthrie on the wing where he is getting his assists and goals.

 

The team we have CAN play good football and we've seen it on occasion, however I think the main problem is that they just don't have the stamina to sustain it for much of the game, especially the central midfielders which are the key to it. I suppose you could blame Hughton for the fitness of the players, but generally I think it's just an inherent failing in those players and there's not a lot you can do about it.

 

FWIW I have my doubts about Hughton myself, but I'm more concerned about his potential ability to motivate the players when things aren't going so well than his tactics. I'd be much happier if h

 

e was the assistant manager.

 

Why not just post the last para and save the essays? Nobody will read all of that. You're concerned about his "potential ability to motivate the players"....!!! Wake the fuck up. He'll be out on his ear after 12 games the most in the PL.

 

We are not in the premiership.

[Parky]

I think people get far to Harsh far to quickly. Its the same with the players & the manager.

 

Its far easy to form a quick negative view of someone for most, than to sustain a positive one & accept that it may not constantly be perfect.

 

Most of us were very positive about KK didn't get us very far did it?

[Parky]

UV suggests that we are top because of the "balls pumped down the middle" strategy as if we'd mastered that tactic. But we're actually shit at it.

 

I was simply parroting Parky's assessment of our tactics there tbh.

 

I have absolutely no problem with well argued critiques like you give yourself, it just seemed like this thread had descended into a match thread type slag fest with no thought whatsoever going into the criticisms.

 

It goes without saying that the defending has set us apart in this league and is the main reason we are top. However if we blamed the midfield for poor defending last year you can't just ignore it as part of the improvement this season, and part of that is the coaching and tactics. We also have the 4th highest number of goals for. That has to come from somewhere and it can't just be from Nolan, Shola & Guthrie creating goals out of nothing and being lethal in front of goal, they're not the players you would have said that about before the season started. In fact a lot of the criticism Hughton is getting is from playing Nolan at all and from having Guthrie on the wing where he is getting his assists and goals.

 

The team we have CAN play good football and we've seen it on occasion, however I think the main problem is that they just don't have the stamina to sustain it for much of the game, especially the central midfielders which are the key to it. I suppose you could blame Hughton for the fitness of the players, but generally I think it's just an inherent failing in those players and there's not a lot you can do about it.

 

FWIW I have my doubts about Hughton myself, but I'm more concerned about his potential ability to motivate the players when things aren't going so well than his tactics. I'd be much happier if h

 

e was the assistant manager.

 

Why not just post the last para and save the essays? Nobody will read all of that. You're concerned about his "potential ability to motivate the players"....!!! Wake the fuck up. He'll be out on his ear after 12 games the most in the PL.

 

We are not in the premiership.

 

If I'm following you....You want to wait till CH fucks up in the PL....Why?

[STM]

We have been comprehensively outplayed at least a dozen times this season. Agree with jpd that is esentially the defence that has kept us top. The rest of it is a shambles.

 

Out of all the teams in the chamionship, we have been least outplayed.

 

Rubbish. Nearly every game we're consistently under pressure. I bet you can't name more than 2/3 games we've dominated or created loads of chances. Good luck.

 

It seems to me that a team which is outplayed constantly wouldn't be top of the league. I don't give a fuck how much pressure we are under, i care about results.

 

We can have one shot on target in every game all season if it means we are top of the league.

 

in a large percentage of the games i've watched this season that we've won the score could have been a hell of a lot different if the team took their chances. while we may be able to get away with letting teams have good chances in this league we will be murdered for it in the premiership.

 

I agree with you but i will discuss that problem when/if we go up.

 

By the way, there are plenty of team's who play a similar style in the premiership, not that our fans will except it.

 

Is that what you do in real life, deal with problems at the last minute?? Christ.

 

We are talking about Newcastle United who are not in the premiership, we are top of the chamionship. I'm talking about hughtons performances now. I will talk about that when there is something to talk about, keep up.