Parky Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 If Ba hadn't been on fire those few weeks we'd be seeing a more realisitc picture. That is the truth of it. If RVP wasn't so good, Arsenal would be mid-table. If Messi wasn't so good, Barca wouldn't be the best team in the world. If Rooney hadn't scored 20 this year, no way Man U would be winning the league. If Yaya Toure didn't play as often, Man City may not contend for the title. Team minus best/better players = less points and worse league position. I'm referring to chances created. Think we're 3rd bottom of the chances created league. CHANCES CREATED MINIMAL BA ON FIRE MAXIMAL. It's not like Ba just gets the ball in defence and runs it into the goal. Lots of his goals have been set up for him mate, or at least passed to him in a promising position. We're 3rd bottom of chances created league, we're 6th top of actually relevant league. We don't create enough chances for a side in 6th I can't make it any simpler than that. There are charts out there showing it. Can't be arsed looking for them. Last time I looked we were 3rd bottom of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 If Ba hadn't been on fire those few weeks we'd be seeing a more realisitc picture. That is the truth of it. If RVP wasn't so good, Arsenal would be mid-table. If Messi wasn't so good, Barca wouldn't be the best team in the world. If Rooney hadn't scored 20 this year, no way Man U would be winning the league. If Yaya Toure didn't play as often, Man City may not contend for the title. Team minus best/better players = less points and worse league position. I'm referring to chances created. Think we're 3rd bottom of the chances created league. CHANCES CREATED MINIMAL BA ON FIRE MAXIMAL. It's not like Ba just gets the ball in defence and runs it into the goal. Lots of his goals have been set up for him mate, or at least passed to him in a promising position. We're 3rd bottom of chances created league, we're 6th top of actually relevant league. It's an indication of the sides play in positive space (the opp half). Nobody else scoring etc...Tell me if any of our midfielders is even in the top 20 assists? These are the broader indicators of poor direct football. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deadmau5 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Alright then. Personally I think it was a matter of him being available for less than what they thought and thus represented great value. I am actually very thankful to Mike and Dekka for bringing him over the line though. Absolutely fantastic. Now its about getting the best out of him, should be one of the first names on the sheet along with Ba and HBA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 .....and it won't be like this next season. Teams around us are toughening up and getting their acts together (Swansea, Scum, Everton and so on...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Now its about getting the best out of him, should be one of the first names on the sheet along with Ba and HBA. And he is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deadmau5 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 .....and it won't be like this next season. Teams around us are toughening up and getting their acts together (Swansea, Scum, Everton and so on...) Im not even sure we will finish above Swansea this season. The thing is, we are top6 - which is absolutely fantastic. Do we belong there? Squadwise, I believe so. But fast-forward to the showdown vs. what is our direct competitors ( Chelsea & Liverpool) and Im quite confident we will be handed a fotballing lesson which wont be so soon forgotten. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_2705370,00.html 11th for number of shots at goal 10th for number of shots on target 10th for most successful passes Though given that Wolves & Wigan have had more shots on target and successful passes and are almost certain to go down, it's probably not the best way of judging success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EthiGeordie Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Though given that Wolves & Wigan have had more shots on target and successful passes and are almost certain to go down, it's probably not the best way of judging success. so true.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_2705370,00.html 11th for number of shots at goal 10th for number of shots on target 10th for most successful passes Though given that Wolves & Wigan have had more shots on target and successful passes and are almost certain to go down, it's probably not the best way of judging success. Those stats must be made up. Shots in the general dir of the goal and actual chances created are different things chum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 If Ba hadn't been on fire those few weeks we'd be seeing a more realisitc picture. That is the truth of it. If RVP wasn't so good, Arsenal would be mid-table. If Messi wasn't so good, Barca wouldn't be the best team in the world. If Rooney hadn't scored 20 this year, no way Man U would be winning the league. If Yaya Toure didn't play as often, Man City may not contend for the title. Team minus best/better players = less points and worse league position. I'm referring to chances created. Think we're 3rd bottom of the chances created league. CHANCES CREATED MINIMAL BA ON FIRE MAXIMAL. It's not like Ba just gets the ball in defence and runs it into the goal. Lots of his goals have been set up for him mate, or at least passed to him in a promising position. We're 3rd bottom of chances created league, we're 6th top of actually relevant league. We don't create enough chances for a side in 6th I can't make it any simpler than that. There are charts out there showing it. Can't be arsed looking for them. Last time I looked we were 3rd bottom of it. We look like a team in 6th - if you look at the table, that's where we are, which to me looks like a side in the top 6. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theregulars Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 If Ba hadn't been on fire those few weeks we'd be seeing a more realisitc picture. That is the truth of it. If RVP wasn't so good, Arsenal would be mid-table. If Messi wasn't so good, Barca wouldn't be the best team in the world. If Rooney hadn't scored 20 this year, no way Man U would be winning the league. If Yaya Toure didn't play as often, Man City may not contend for the title. Team minus best/better players = less points and worse league position. I'm referring to chances created. Think we're 3rd bottom of the chances created league. CHANCES CREATED MINIMAL BA ON FIRE MAXIMAL. It's not like Ba just gets the ball in defence and runs it into the goal. Lots of his goals have been set up for him mate, or at least passed to him in a promising position. We're 3rd bottom of chances created league, we're 6th top of actually relevant league. It's an indication of the sides play in positive space (the opp half). Nobody else scoring etc...Tell me if any of our midfielders is even in the top 20 assists? These are the broader indicators of poor direct football. No it's not, the stats relating to us are an indication of whichever style of football we choose to play, which, as of this moment, is a relatively successful style. To score the goals we have done, there have to have been assists or key plays leading up to the goal, and there have been enough of them to mean we have won the majority of games we've played this season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_2705370,00.html 11th for number of shots at goal 10th for number of shots on target 10th for most successful passes Though given that Wolves & Wigan have had more shots on target and successful passes and are almost certain to go down, it's probably not the best way of judging success. Probably because Wolves and Wigan pass the ball sideways and backwards so it can be a very misleading stat they are not looking to try risky passes to open up the opposition. While i want us to play a better form of football i want it to be effective aswell and passing sideways and backwards all day and having no clue how to create chances is a waste of time. If we are going to be passing team in the future, we have to pass with a purpose and put the team on the back foot with movement and passing and not just passing for passing sakes. We would also have to change to a variation of 4-3-3 to pull this off imo, you cant pull of a passing style in a 4-4-2 IMO its too open and too easy to dominate as been shown this season many many times. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_2705370,00.html 11th for number of shots at goal 10th for number of shots on target 10th for most successful passes Though given that Wolves & Wigan have had more shots on target and successful passes and are almost certain to go down, it's probably not the best way of judging success. Those stats must be made up. Shots in the general dir of the goal and actual chances created are different things chum. I thought the same, until I noticed Stoke have about 1,500 less passes than anyone else. So it's 100% genuine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlelunchbox Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11662_2705370,00.html 11th for number of shots at goal 10th for number of shots on target 10th for most successful passes Though given that Wolves & Wigan have had more shots on target and successful passes and are almost certain to go down, it's probably not the best way of judging success. wow those stats are pretty good, apart from swansea and liverpool the only teams that managed a 5 figure number of successful passes are all in the top five of the table. all the teams i mentioned managed over 11000 successful passes nufc 8440. <---- who cares, hoof ball works , 6th place Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 'EE-I-EE-I-EE-I-O...huuup the chances created league we go...' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 People can talk about stats and league placings all they like but the fact of the matter is that we often get outpassed and outfought tactically by the opposition, home and away, in the league and even in the cups despite having arguably the best starting XI outside of the top 6. I also refuse to accept this bull s*** notion that because Williamson and Simposn (the new scapegoats) are not the most gifted on the ball or in possession, is the reason why we resort to the long ball or even more idiotic a notion, that we drop deep because of this. For 10 minutes from the start yesterday the back-four, midfield and attacked played possession football from the back, through into midfield and onto the forwards that saw us go a goal up and could have also easily seen is race into a very quick 3-0 lead. That to me suggest our players can play possession football. If only they were encouraged to and allowed to. That isn't the case though. As soon as we went a goal up, Pardew become more animated on the touchline and more involved. Not long after we dropped deeper and Cabaye and Guthrie in particular dropped deeper too. Meanwhile Ba almost become a 5th midfielder leaving the very dangerous and very lively Cisse who when the ball was played to his feet or into space for him, was posing a massive threat, fighting for long balls more often than not. As a result we allowed Norwich to push up and play down our flanks knowing our midfield went narrower and they began to get a foothold on the game to the point that in the second half, they were outpassing us and keeping possesion more. But for a few saves from Krul we could have been looking at another Wolves scenario. Once again Shola comes on and he goes to Cabaye and Guthrie and again, the instructions were obvious. Hold your line and release the ball early. Cabaye at one point looked well and trully p*ssed off having to launch it quarter-back style all the time. Up until that point he was having a decent game. Again there was a contrast in the halfs and again, Pardew's containment style negative tactics and philosophy had a detrimental effect on the team's shape, forward cohesien and attacking threat which basically put paid to any opening 10 minute type of football which should we applied throughout the game, would have seen the mighty Norwich put to the sword by 4 or 5 rather than the solitary 1 which we narrowly won by by the end. As for his team lineup... and tactics. This sums Pardew up: If you are going to play a none left back at left-back that player will need protected aye? So what does Pardew do? He plays Cabaye on the left but narrow meaning Norwich had a free run at Jonas throughout the game. To his credit he did well defensively and going forward. No thanks to Pardew though. As for Perch, you do not need Perch anywhere in the starting lineup at home to Norwich. The fact he went down as many's MOTM though tells you everything. We eventually needed him because Norwich were on top in midfield and running us ragged. They played some lovely stuff second half, down the middle, in little triangles and switching play across the pitch. We have the players to keep the ball and dominate sides but we don't have the manager to encourage us to keep the ball and dominate teams and it will slowly but surely, as is happening, catch up with him and for our better players, will stifle their own games as we are seeing with Cabaye, Ba and even Tiote these days. Cisse in the second half looked a different player, useless, and that's because balls were being flung up to him and played blindly by a side instructed to contain and release early long balls by their clueless manager. We are 6th but I have not enjoyed this season. I enjoyed last season much more even though we finished mid-table. We haven't thrashed anyone this season or really got at anyone. We go into games set up to contain and not to get at the opposition. We are a very dull side to watch which plays turgid football. Tactically we are a mess how the likes of Ryan Taylor and Obertan have played so many games ahead of Ben Arfa typifies the mentality of our manager and his thinking process. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Lovenkrands? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 People can talk about stats and league placings all they like but the fact of the matter is that we often get outpassed and outfought tactically by the opposition, home and away, in the league and even in the cups despite having arguably the best starting XI outside of the top 6. I also refuse to accept this bull s*** notion that because Williamson and Simposn (the new scapegoats) are not the most gifted on the ball or in possession, is the reason why we resort to the long ball or even more idiotic a notion, that we drop deep because of this. For 10 minutes from the start yesterday the back-four, midfield and attacked played possession football from the back, through into midfield and onto the forwards that saw us go a goal up and could have also easily seen is race into a very quick 3-0 lead. That to me suggest our players can play possession football. If only they were encouraged to and allowed to. That isn't the case though. How much of this though is down to the opposition sitting back so we have more opportunities to do this, and then when they concede, know that they have to come at us more which is putting our weaker players (Williamson & Simpson come to mind) under more pressure than when the score is, say, 1-0 to us? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deadmau5 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Like Wolves at home you mean, the team everyone but us is beating with cricket-scores? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Like Wolves at home you mean, the team everyone but us is beating with cricket-scores? Exactly my point. They came at us in the Second Half, the shackles came off, and got their goals (funnily enough via a Simpson deflection and Williamson being turned too easily), by the two quality players they had. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATB Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 give over man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Optimistic Nut Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 That's not an excuse for Pardew btw. Even if they do attack us we should be more than capable of beating them, but it's all too simplistic to say, "well we attacked and played well for 30 minutes, why not 90?" Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Deadmau5 Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 They shouldn't even get past our midfield tbh, any manager with our offensive lineup and a heart bigger than a peanut would have sent them packing 5-0 or more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 give over man. He's exactly right. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 I see the hyperbole on both sides. But there are some heads being buried in the sand on things regarding Pardew. People must be worried? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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