Alan Pardew

[Minhosa]

Even if that scenario is true, Pardew is still saying which players he wants in the team, and the ones he's saying yes to are pretty good. So if that's the worst case for Pardew, he still comes out of it looking very capable.

 

We'll never know who he's wanted and who has been a 'Boardroom' signing so the discussion is largely irrelevant Ian.

 

Santon for example, strikes me as an 'Investor' decision rather than say a Pieters would have been due to the potential upside.

 

Llambias decided that Santon was the right signing for the club?

 

Why not? Somebody clearly did and somebody clearly decided on him rather than Pieters - the question isn't who but why?

 

[ChezGiven]

I liked him as a manager and a personality before he came here, and I'm pleased to see that he's doing pretty well so far.

 

I'm sure he would have got some credit a lot quicker if he hadn't come in to replace Chris Hughton, who was treated appallingly. He's also the right kind of character to work with Ashley and Llambias, as he's clever enough to realise that it's better for him to keep his disagreements with the board behind the scenes and try (as much as possible) to present a united front. He knows when to swallow his pride for the good of the club and of course his own career. Some people might think that's spineless, I just think it's smart.

 

Obviously the great signings (which I'm not sure he had much to do with, at least initially) and the excellent start to the season help a lot.

 

Everyone obviously thinks this but my instinct is that its all Pardew. I have had the discussion on Toontastic with posters who claim that Pardew is just a puppet. The logical extension of that position is that Derek Llambias is a footballing genius. Llambias either allow millions of clubs £'s be spent (gross not net) on the advice of a scout (who has got it spot on so Llambias' footballing judgement is sound), takes the decisions himself  or its Pardew. In the scenario where its not Pardew, you either have Llambias making the decision himself or preferring the counsel of a scout over a manager who is on close terms with the owner.

 

Not wanting to get all Sherlock Holmes (eliminate the impossible etc) but i reckon its Pardew making all the decisions bar the financial ones. People create fictional narratives about puppet managers and evil plans when the reality is more mundane. Pardew is the manager and makes the footballing decisions, any other scenario is not credible as it means someone else is making some great decisions and the only candidate for that is Llambias.

 

Why is there such fear in saying Llambias' footballing judgement is sound?

 

I doubt he has much do do with the signings beyond the rather critical responsibility of initiating, negotiating, and finalising the deals alongside Charnley, but beyond that, in the last couple of years the staff appointed from the first team level to the kids all seem to be sound, as is his willingness to invest in facilities and even allow little things like putting the development squad on a private jet to swansea rather than the usual day on a coach.

Few would say he's an endearing character (putting it mildly), but fair play to him on his more recent handling of the club imho.

I wasnt trying to do down Llambias am just saying its far more likely he has delegated footballing decisions (like signing Cabaye!) to Pardew. I'm making the point that the accusation of him being a puppet dont stack up otherwise you have this very vague notion that the final decision to sign Cabaye was taken by an ex-casino manager.

[Dave]

I just hope that in 6 months time, when these same "brilliant"/"good" poll results are probably still beaming down on us from the top of the page, we're just as happy with him.

 

 

 

 

But for now... 

 

The poll results prior to being reset were hardly negative.

[ChezGiven]

Even if that scenario is true, Pardew is still saying which players he wants in the team, and the ones he's saying yes to are pretty good. So if that's the worst case for Pardew, he still comes out of it looking very capable.

 

We'll never know who he's wanted and who has been a 'Boardroom' signing so the discussion is largely irrelevant Ian.

 

Santon for example, strikes me as an 'Investor' decision rather than say a Pieters would have been due to the potential upside.

 

Llambias decided that Santon was the right signing for the club?

 

Why not? Somebody clearly did and somebody clearly decided on him rather than Pieters - the question isn't who but why?

 

The question i brought up and am posing in this thread is who. I've made my case for it being Pardew and its not the first time people have ignored it tbh.

[ChezGiven]

I don't think Pardew decides which one he wants though which was the point of my post. I think he has an influence but is not the decision maker.

 

For example, if Carr knocked on Llambias door today and said 'I've found the next Tiote - we can buy him for peanuts and the potential upside is huge' I doubt Llambias would say 'let's go check with Alan as he's well covered in that area'. I think he'd say 'how big an upside and how long would it take us to shift Cabaye or Tiote for good dollar?'.

 

Pardews view would then be irrelevant.

 

IMHO of course.

 

Utter nonsense. You're a classic example of the backward thinking required to fit facts to the narrative. Pardew is a puppet and Carr runs NUFC. Thats what you've just said, like it or not.

[Skirge]

Voted good but I think a "really well" option is needed.

 

At times his substitutions are baffling and on Saturday those changes nearly cost us.

I think it just go's to show that having a stronger squad makes team selection and substations that bit harder to get right, this will test his man management skills now.

 

He did say after the Blackburn game than Loven was unlucky not to get on after his two cup goals in the Cup, so playing him vs Wolves was his reward but also gave him the chance to protect HBA from being clattered by Henry and we all know its what would have happened.

 

[Minhosa]

Even if that scenario is true, Pardew is still saying which players he wants in the team, and the ones he's saying yes to are pretty good. So if that's the worst case for Pardew, he still comes out of it looking very capable.

 

We'll never know who he's wanted and who has been a 'Boardroom' signing so the discussion is largely irrelevant Ian.

 

Santon for example, strikes me as an 'Investor' decision rather than say a Pieters would have been due to the potential upside.

 

Llambias decided that Santon was the right signing for the club?

 

Why not? Somebody clearly did and somebody clearly decided on him rather than Pieters - the question isn't who but why?

 

The question i brought up and am posing in this thread is who. I've made my case for it being Pardew and its not the first time people have ignored it tbh.

 

I'm one of the doubters to be honest. Just can't see Ashley allowing him to have that influence when it comes to transfer funds.

 

I would imagine Dekka has the responsibility for day to day financial management of the club and would therefore have a very tight handle on all deals and potential targets with initial cost and potential upside the two key drivers and Pardews needs, wants and desires somewhere down the pecking order.

[Dave]

I don't think Pardew decides which one he wants though which was the point of my post. I think he has an influence but is not the decision maker.

 

For example, if Carr knocked on Llambias door today and said 'I've found the next Tiote - we can buy him for peanuts and the potential upside is huge' I doubt Llambias would say 'let's go check with Alan as he's well covered in that area'. I think he'd say 'how big an upside and how long would it take us to shift Cabaye or Tiote for good dollar?'.

 

Pardews view would then be irrelevant.

 

IMHO of course.

 

Utter nonsense. You're a classic example of the backward thinking required to fit facts to the narrative. Pardew is a puppet and Carr runs NUFC. Thats what you've just said, like it or not.

 

Bit strong - it's his opinion, how can it categorically be utter nonsense? Do you have any more inside knowledge of how the club works than anyone else on here?

 

No one person 'runs NUFC', fundamentally that's why Keegan isn't still here. Some decisions are made purely on the basis of finance, the evidence of that is littered throughout Ashley's reign. I can't see why Pardew would have any particular influence on it, and you only have to look at the failed striker search (and Pardew's subsequent silence then relatively strong criticism of the board) for proof of that.

[Optimistic Nut]

I reckon it'll be a case of Pardew saying what area he wants, Carr going out to find it, Pardew says yes or no before Llambias has final say on fees, wages, etc. How the Keegan/Wise thing should have worked really.

[Minhosa]

I don't think Pardew decides which one he wants though which was the point of my post. I think he has an influence but is not the decision maker.

 

For example, if Carr knocked on Llambias door today and said 'I've found the next Tiote - we can buy him for peanuts and the potential upside is huge' I doubt Llambias would say 'let's go check with Alan as he's well covered in that area'. I think he'd say 'how big an upside and how long would it take us to shift Cabaye or Tiote for good dollar?'.

 

Pardews view would then be irrelevant.

 

IMHO of course.

 

Utter nonsense. You're a classic example of the backward thinking required to fit facts to the narrative. Pardew is a puppet and Carr runs NUFC. Thats what you've just said, like it or not.

 

touched a nerve?

 

In the example I posted earlier what would happen if Dekka says no?

 

Does Carr still run NUFC? No.

 

I guess it comes down to the overall transfer strategy of the club and where you stand on NUFC's ambitions in this regard.

 

You seem to think they channel this through Pardew and he's the main man.

 

I very much think he's got a minor influence and the strategy is one geared to upside/minimal risk.

 

If Pardew was the main man why didn't we get a striker that he demanded? Because there wasn't one to fit the profile in terms of the financials - upside/risk.

 

If there was he would be here, so Pardews influence can not be as significant as you seem to think it is.

 

 

[ChezGiven]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

[ChezGiven]

We didnt get a striker because he doesnt make financial decisions. Does that really need pointing out?

[Dave]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

[Minhosa]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Thanks for giving me the authority to keep believing my own opinion, much appreciated.

 

You're keen to talk up Pardews position in all of this yet wasn't it Pardew who committed to keeping Carroll (extreme example, granted), committed to getting a new striker through the door, talked Nolan's contract talks, same with Barton etc.

 

Also when AC was sold Pardew went on record as saying he'd spoken to Ashley about the money being reinvested - at no point did he say 'I'll spend it', 'I have my players lined up', 'I know who I want etc etc' - he always talks about the 'we' or 'the club' etc etc which, to me at least, is a recognition that he doesn't have direct influence to any large extent.

 

[Minhosa]

We didnt get a striker because he doesnt make financial decisions. Does that really need pointing out?

 

Then what's the point in giving him that 'delegated responsibility' to paraphrase your argument?

[ChezGiven]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

[Minhosa]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

How do you know there's only three people?

[ChezGiven]

We didnt get a striker because he doesnt make financial decisions. Does that really need pointing out?

 

Then what's the point in giving him that 'delegated responsibility' to paraphrase your argument?

To make decisions on which players we are going to try and sign. The only way i can imagine someone not seeing that is if they tied themselves in illogical knots about how decisions get made at the club.

[ChezGiven]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

How do you know there's only three people?

I counted them.

[Lush Vlad]

One thing I really like about him, is his honesty in post match interviews.  After QPR he acknowledged he'd got it wrong, we were poor, lucky to get a point etc.  On Saturday, he again spoke about both contreversial decisions, said Wolves deserved at least a point and we didn't control the game like we normally do.

 

Quite refreshing when you compare it to some of the shite spouted by some others.  Bruce just uses every excuse under the sun, whilst trying to make himself out to be a great manager.  Dalglish changes the subject and doesn't answer the questions properly, also gets petty and angry over fuck all, did it at the weekend and after Brighton.  Wenger never sees it, and Fergie is also stupidly biased.

 

Maybe it's easier to say these things when you get something from the game, but I also think it's class from him as he seems to be noticing where we've gone wrong and doesn't just burry his head in the sand and keep hiding behind a wall of bullshit.  About the game at least, when he's talking about transfers, money to spend etc, I think he's about as clueless as the rest of us.

 

[Dave]

You both need to separate financial decisions from footballing ones. They are separate spheres of decisions. Minhosa / Pardew is a puppet brigade are basically saying that Llambias or a scout make the footballing decisions.

 

You both can keep on believing that Llambias hired a puppet and makes footballing decisions on the likes of Cabaye and Santon with input from a scout and not the man they appointed manager. Dont worry, you're not alone in thinking it.

 

Nice straw man you have there.

 

Its not a straw-man, its the only logical conclusion when there are only 3 people involved. Llambias, Carr and Pardew.

 

Pardew is not the highest authority, finance will trump football and he will not get what he wants all the time. However, pushing the button on a yes or a no for Cabaye or Santon etc will be down to the manager's say (if the deal is right).

 

Selling a player for £35m is clearly a financial decision, not a footballing one.

 

Assuming I was one of the 'both' you referred to, it's a straw man when you're claiming to know what I believe and pasting me into some kind of brigade, despite me not actually posting anything of the sort. What I've posted isn't actually radically different to what you have either.

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

[Guest BooBoo]

Rarely does a day pass without Dave making reference to a straw man.

[Dave]

Rarely does a day pass without Dave making reference to a straw man.

 

Touché.

[TRon]

This idea that Graham Carr is responsible for the players we sign rather than Pardew is a bit misleading. All managers, including Alex Ferguson will have scouts recommending players according to a set criteria. The big difference between Pardew and say Neil Warnock is that Pardew has to work within strict financial parameters where signings with no resale value won't be considered.

[Mr Logic]

 

I also think you're being quite aggressive and condescending in this particular argument. As I said before, that's fine if you have any more knowledge of the club's inner workings than any other on this forum. Otherwise it's all speculation, people are free to believe what they want and shouldn't really be ridiculed for it.

 

You could pretty much post this about twenty times a day (minimum) throughout the board.