ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 IMO the international argument is worse for Cronaldo than it is for Messi. Really isn't though is it? CRonaldo has came top 4 in three big tournaments. Messi has in zero. Does the 2007 Copa America not count then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 IMO the international argument is worse for Cronaldo than it is for Messi. Really isn't though is it? CRonaldo has came top 4 in three big tournaments. Messi has in zero. Does the 2007 Copa America not count then? Aye true, it's just that Brazil won that with Robinho being the player of the tournament along with players like Josue, Julio Baptista and Vagner Love ffs. I actually forgot that. Fair enough, 3 to 1. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I thought he was good in last Copa America as well from a pure playmaking sense anyway he didn't score any but he created a shit load... pretty sure he was top assister in the tournament too? I don't think he's even been "bad" tbh in any international tournament just not up to his usual standards and a lot of that has been due to the fact between Pekerman and recently all the coaches Argentina have had are clueless nuts. Maradona Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Let's not forget the World Youth Cup in which he and Quincy were the best players in the tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 IMO the international argument is worse for Cronaldo than it is for Messi. Really isn't though is it? CRonaldo has came top 4 in three big tournaments. Messi has in zero. Does the 2007 Copa America not count then? Aye true, it's just that Brazil won that with Robinho being the player of the tournament along with players like Josue, Julio Baptista and Vagner Love ffs. I actually forgot that. Fair enough, 3 to 1. You're talking team achievements here anyway. Apart from those 3 clutch goals in 2 games at the last Euros he's regularly disappointed at major tournaments in the same way Messi has. In terms of performances I'd say Messi had a superior World Cup in 2010 and even in 2006 when he was a kid. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi. Nah as he's not even the best Ronaldo of the last 15 years. I was checking some of his stats last night and they're really bloody insane. I was unfortunately too young to appreciate his PSV/Barca years when they were happening so all I have to go off are videos and compilations which I've watched and rewatched. But fucking hell man. What a player in all regards of his game. I know you're a particularly big fan of his, would you say he's underrated in the general context of players of the past 30-40 years? I still think he's unfairly tainted because of his more turbulent later years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 IMO the international argument is worse for Cronaldo than it is for Messi. Really isn't though is it? CRonaldo has came top 4 in three big tournaments. Messi has in zero. Does the 2007 Copa America not count then? Aye true, it's just that Brazil won that with Robinho being the player of the tournament along with players like Josue, Julio Baptista and Vagner Love ffs. I actually forgot that. Fair enough, 3 to 1. You're talking team achievements here anyway. Apart from those 3 clutch goals in 2 games at the last Euros he's regularly disappointed at major tournaments in the same way Messi has. In terms of performances I'd say Messi had a superior World Cup in 2010 and even in 2006 when he was a kid. Messi played what, a maximum of 100minutes in the 2006 world cup? 1 start man. I'm not saying CRonaldo has been good in international tournament, I just don't agree that Messi has been better. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Ronaldo was scoring at Messi/Cron current rates when he was like 19. The videos of him on Youtube are great viewing if you're ever bored, his natural talent surely exceeds everybody of the last 20 years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 IMO the international argument is worse for Cronaldo than it is for Messi. Really isn't though is it? CRonaldo has came top 4 in three big tournaments. Messi has in zero. Does the 2007 Copa America not count then? Aye true, it's just that Brazil won that with Robinho being the player of the tournament along with players like Josue, Julio Baptista and Vagner Love ffs. I actually forgot that. Fair enough, 3 to 1. You're talking team achievements here anyway. Apart from those 3 clutch goals in 2 games at the last Euros he's regularly disappointed at major tournaments in the same way Messi has. In terms of performances I'd say Messi had a superior World Cup in 2010 and even in 2006 when he was a kid. Messi played what, a maximum of 100minutes in the 2006 world cup? 1 start man. I'm not saying CRonaldo has been good in international tournament, I just don't agree that Messi has been better. His time will come at major tournaments anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 pretty sure he was top assister in the tournament too? Doesn't matter if he was, not sure if that's right, but Ganso had 3 and was absolute garbage for like 3 out of 4 games. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 IMO the international argument is worse for Cronaldo than it is for Messi. Really isn't though is it? CRonaldo has came top 4 in three big tournaments. Messi has in zero. Does the 2007 Copa America not count then? Aye true, it's just that Brazil won that with Robinho being the player of the tournament along with players like Josue, Julio Baptista and Vagner Love ffs. I actually forgot that. Fair enough, 3 to 1. You're talking team achievements here anyway. Apart from those 3 clutch goals in 2 games at the last Euros he's regularly disappointed at major tournaments in the same way Messi has. In terms of performances I'd say Messi had a superior World Cup in 2010 and even in 2006 when he was a kid. Messi played what, a maximum of 100minutes in the 2006 world cup? 1 start man. I'm not saying CRonaldo has been good in international tournament, I just don't agree that Messi has been better. His time will come at major tournaments anyway Unfortunately it will, there is no doubt in my mind that he and Argentina will take the piss out of everyone in Brazil. IN BRAZIL! Fuck me. Messi will piss all over Brazil and Pele too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Hope so, his form for Argentina is on an upwards curve right now. I don't know whether they'll win it mind, but I can't see him not playing well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 The media will go nuts if he leads them to glory in f*cking Brazil It will be so bad that if anyone tries to debate who is the greatest ever again people will just laugh at you thus the hype train that will be behind it. Who cares about that anyway the key behind it all is.... Colo will come back to SJP with a WC winners medal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 People say it was easier to score in Pele's day than today with stats backing that up RE number of goals scored but I disagree. Today teams are far more defensive and tactical and because of the money involved, far more likely to protect a lead or look for a draw. Back in Pele's day teams were far more attacking and because a defeat didnt cost as much in terms of loss of money, there wasn't a need to sit on a lead or go for a draw. I'd say defences were actually better back then and tougher too. Remember defenders could pass the ball back to their 'keeper. If that rule existed today every game would be a bore draw! The likes of Pele would probably score even more today. Poorer defences, next to no tackling, better protection from refs and a faster game meaning more mistakes etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 It is sort of made for him to have his crowning international moment in 2014, and lead Argentina to glory. If that were to happen, and it is of course a big if, I'm not sure what else can be said against him being the greatest ever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Then why has the average number of goals scored fallen dramatically? Your argument makes no sense HTT, you say it was harder to score yet the bare facts say that everybody scored more goals? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi. Nah as he's not even the best Ronaldo of the last 15 years. I was checking some of his stats last night and they're really bloody insane. I was unfortunately too young to appreciate his PSV/Barca years when they were happening so all I have to go off are videos and compilations which I've watched and rewatched. But fucking hell man. What a player in all regards of his game. I know you're a particularly big fan of his, would you say he's underrated in the general context of players of the past 30-40 years? I still think he's unfairly tainted because of his more turbulent later years. He is by a lot but if you go on forums where people tend to know their football then he's quite highly rated. I think as you've said it's his latter years which unfortunately have led to a tainted image of him from the generation below mine, Fat Ronaldo etc when they never got to see how good he really was before his injuries. I totally agree with Sewelly when you're talking about him being the most naturally talented player of the past 20 years. Not to take anything away from Cristiano but I could not envisage him doing the same that Ronaldo did when going to Inter and Serie A at the age that he did. He took them a whisker to their first title for years which was taken away by corrupt officials in his first season there in what was the toughest league defensively at the time. Plus as I have stated on here before that Inter team from then wasn't anything particularly out of the ordinary either. Another one whose career was littered with bad advice and was corrupted by his advisers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Also I'm not saying Cristiano isn't a great player as he clearly is, even if he is a bit of a flat track bully, his game has developed massively in the past few seasons. He's the typical product of Ferguson, he might not be as dazzling as he once was on the ball but he turned him into the most efficient of machines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Then why has the average number of goals scored fallen dramatically? Your argument makes no sense HTT, you say it was harder to score yet the bare facts say that everybody scored more goals? Mentality man. Back then teams and players were sent out to win and to score goals. Today teams are sent out not to lose. See our own Newcastle. Players were more individualistic too. Ben Arfa in Pele's day would be a world great, allowed to express his talents freely. Not today he has to defend etc. There is too much money in the modern game to allow players and teams to wilfully express themselves freely which in a way makes the likes if Messi all the more remarkable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 That still doesn't make sense to your original argument HTT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Howaythetoon Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Also I'm not saying Cristiano isn't a great player as he clearly is, even if he is a bit of a flat track bully, his game has developed massively in the past few seasons. He's the typical product of Ferguson, he might not be as dazzling as he once was on the ball but he turned him into the most efficient of machines. Bang on, the same has happened to Rooney to a lesser extent. Mind the real Ronaldo... Not a patch on Big Al Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I wonder if we would have been talking about C. Ronaldo amongst the best players ever had it not been for Messi. Nah as he's not even the best Ronaldo of the last 15 years. I was checking some of his stats last night and they're really bloody insane. I was unfortunately too young to appreciate his PSV/Barca years when they were happening so all I have to go off are videos and compilations which I've watched and rewatched. But f***ing hell man. What a player in all regards of his game. I know you're a particularly big fan of his, would you say he's underrated in the general context of players of the past 30-40 years? I still think he's unfairly tainted because of his more turbulent later years. Another one whose career was littered with bad advice and was corrupted by his advisers. How was his career littered with bad advice? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Then why has the average number of goals scored fallen dramatically? Your argument makes no sense HTT, you say it was harder to score yet the bare facts say that everybody scored more goals? HTT just thinks it was harder to score then, damn the facts and evidence, man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Then why has the average number of goals scored fallen dramatically? Your argument makes no sense HTT, you say it was harder to score yet the bare facts say that everybody scored more goals? HTT just thinks it was harder to score then, damn the facts and evidence, man. His arguments are as cloudy as yours though tbf. Arguing that CRonaldo would be among the absolute best ever. Oh god. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Swift Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Then why has the average number of goals scored fallen dramatically? Your argument makes no sense HTT, you say it was harder to score yet the bare facts say that everybody scored more goals? Mentality man. Back then teams and players were sent out to win and to score goals. Today teams are sent out not to lose. See our own Newcastle. Players were more individualistic too. Ben Arfa in Pele's day would be a world great, allowed to express his talents freely. Not today he has to defend etc. There is too much money in the modern game to allow players and teams to wilfully express themselves freely which in a way makes the likes if Messi all the more remarkable. So it was easier to score back then, then, given that teams were more offensive. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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