Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Flip]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

[Flip]

I'm not denying that flip, just the overall theme that consistency matters for club and country.

 

If only players at their best in big games mattered, he would be in this discussion. (Ronaldinho)

 

Fact is though he isn't.

 

Zidane was far more consistent though, because while he wasn't consistent week in week out, he always performed in important matches and that's what really matters. Who cares if he didn't have a great game in the 33rd La Liga round against Levante or whatever when he took responsibility for his team when they actually needed it the most.

[Mole_Toonfan]

My point was that Zidane while more consistent than Ronaldinho wasn't as consistent as Messi.

[The College Dropout]

I'm strictly talking great moments.  Messi and co. are all more consistent, there's no argument there. If that's your definition of greatness, fair enough.

 

 

Galactic Madrid were not a great team.  We know that much. Barcelona are a brilliant team - probably better than the sum of it's parts.  Including Messi.

 

The #10 talk was in response to someone saying Messi was better than Zidane at everything except grace.  And that he could play the Xavi role.

[Flip]

My point was that Zidane while more consistent than Ronaldinho wasn't as consistent as Messi.

 

In that case I agree.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Fair enough Dropout i can agree then.

[Guest firetotheworks]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

[tmonkey]

Hardly Iniesta's fault that he played in a better team in an attacking sense than Zidane.

 

Also Zidane wasn't considerably better at international level than Iniesta at all. Iniesta was sublime in both the 2010 World Cup and Euro 2012.

 

We can agree to disagree. Personally don't see how Iniesta ever got close to Euro 2000 Zidane. Absolutely nowhere near that at any stage of his career for Spain.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Iniesta's a genius footballer tbh, so under-rated. I can't put him above Zidane though, he just wasn't on that level for me.

[Neil]

Not sure I can think of anyone - maybe only Messi - who, in my lifetime, can keep the ball better than Iniesta. The way he keeps possession and controls it immaculately in the tightest of spaces borders on the absurd.

 

 

[Guest firetotheworks]

Not sure I can think of anyone - maybe only Messi - who, in my lifetime, can keep the ball better than Iniesta. The way he keeps possession and controls it immaculately in the tightest of spaces borders on the absurd.

 

 

 

Probably Xavi as well, but more in the fact that he's amazing at using or creating space on or off the ball so that he keeps the ball. I've honestly seen him lose the ball twice since 2008 and one of those was a misplaced pass.

[Guest n4e]

Zidane is probably my favourite player of all time. As Billy said, he was an absolute magician.

 

Zidane is definitely my favorite like, as a kid growing up watching him I was just mesmerized by the sheer elegance and aura of the man. The effect he had on everyone around him in those big games was amazing as well.

[Flip]

FWIW KI, I meant his peak in a performance and not over a season or so. Should've made that clearer, I still believe that those two players could change games same way as Messi in inferior teams. I certainly believe Messi to be the best player I've seen though, just because of his ability to maintain a standard for so so many years.

[Mr. Snrub]

Lionel Messi is the only player in history to score consecuteively against every other team in a professional league.  And not just a professionbal league, the best league in the world.

 

In the last 6 seasons he has averaged over 50 goals per season.  He has scored 50 goals in the league alone in just 1 season in 37 matches.  He has scored over 90 goals in 1 calender year for club and country.  Barcelona's all time top scorer by the age of 26.  Only needs another 5 to become the top scorer ever in the European Cup/Champions League.  Also the only player to score 5 goals in a CL match, a record broken that was jointly held by, well, Lionel Messi.  The only player in history to win World Player of the Year 4 times.  In a row, at that.

 

If anyone even tries to say there has been a better player in this generation then their opinion on football isn't eren worth listening to.

[alpal78]

Lionel Messi is the only player in history to score consecuteively against every other team in a professional league.  And not just a professionbal league, the best league in the world.

 

In the last 6 seasons he has averaged over 50 goals per season.  He has scored 50 goals in the league alone in just 1 season in 37 matches.  He has scored over 90 goals in 1 calender year for club and country.  Barcelona's all time top scorer by the age of 26.  Only needs another 5 to become the top scorer ever in the European Cup/Champions League.  Also the only player to score 5 goals in a CL match, a record broken that was jointly held by, well, Lionel Messi.  The only player in history to win World Player of the Year 4 times.  In a row, at that.

 

If anyone even tries to say there has been a better player in this generation then their opinion on football isn't eren worth listening to.

 

If stats and goal is all that is important, then Ronaldo is the better player in 2013/2014 outscoring Messi overall (51 - 41 ), in La Liga (31 vs 28 ) and CL (17 vs 8 ). He bettered him on ratio of goals/appearances too in case you're wondering. Can't have it both ways and oh thanks for listening :-)

[Lotus]

Remember watching France vs Brazil in the 2006 World Cup. Ronaldinho vs Zidane. Ronaldinho kept trying to dazzle with individual skillz. Zidane just bossed THE GAME. Zizou gave him a total lesson in how to raise a team to level above. Not that i think Ronaldinho noticed tbh. Was too self absorbed.

[Guest firetotheworks]

FWIW KI, I meant his peak in a performance and not over a season or so. Should've made that clearer, I still believe that those two players could change games same way as Messi in inferior teams. I certainly believe Messi to be the best player I've seen though, just because of his ability to maintain a standard for so so many years.

 

Did you not say that Zidane and Ronaldo at their peak (whether that be in one match, one month, one season or whatever) were comparable to Messi? And in Zidane's case arguably better?

 

I find that honestly ridiculous, tbf. I'd say Ronaldo before he f***ed his knee is the only one anywhere near Messi at his peak.

[Guest firetotheworks]

Remember watching France vs Brazil in the 2006 World Cup. Ronaldinho vs Zidane. Ronaldinho kept trying to dazzle with individual skillz. Zidane just bossed THE GAME. Zizou gave him a total lesson in how to raise a team to level above. Not that i think Ronaldinho noticed tbh. Was too self absorbed.

 

It was more Kaka and not really Ronaldinho like.

[Lotus]

Remember watching France vs Brazil in the 2006 World Cup. Ronaldinho vs Zidane. Ronaldinho kept trying to dazzle with individual skillz. Zidane just bossed THE GAME. Zizou gave him a total lesson in how to raise a team to level above. Not that i think Ronaldinho noticed tbh. Was too self absorbed.

 

It was more Kaka and not really Ronaldinho like.

 

Nah. I was paying attention to Ronaldinho (a player with ridiculous ball skill, probs more than Messi tbh) vs Zidane. ZZ came out Tops

[Guest firetotheworks]

Remember watching France vs Brazil in the 2006 World Cup. Ronaldinho vs Zidane. Ronaldinho kept trying to dazzle with individual skillz. Zidane just bossed THE GAME. Zizou gave him a total lesson in how to raise a team to level above. Not that i think Ronaldinho noticed tbh. Was too self absorbed.

 

It was more Kaka and not really Ronaldinho like.

 

Nah. I was paying attention to Ronaldinho (a player with ridiculous ball skill, probs more than Messi tbh) vs Zidane. ZZ came out Tops

 

Yeah, I know...my point is that in that match the 'duel' was clearly between Zidane and Kaka in terms of who controlled the game.

[Lotus]

Remember watching France vs Brazil in the 2006 World Cup. Ronaldinho vs Zidane. Ronaldinho kept trying to dazzle with individual skillz. Zidane just bossed THE GAME. Zizou gave him a total lesson in how to raise a team to level above. Not that i think Ronaldinho noticed tbh. Was too self absorbed.

 

It was more Kaka and not really Ronaldinho like.

 

Nah. I was paying attention to Ronaldinho (a player with ridiculous ball skill, probs more than Messi tbh) vs Zidane. ZZ came out Tops

 

Yeah, I know...my point is that in that match the 'duel' was clearly between Zidane and Kaka in terms of who controlled the game.

 

I used to be so impressed by Lil' Ron that i thought he would just take France to pieces on his own. Completely changed how i viewed football watching Zidane bring his team into it.

I was probably such a Ronaldinho fan boy that i didn't even give Kaka much thought

[Guest firetotheworks]

Remember watching France vs Brazil in the 2006 World Cup. Ronaldinho vs Zidane. Ronaldinho kept trying to dazzle with individual skillz. Zidane just bossed THE GAME. Zizou gave him a total lesson in how to raise a team to level above. Not that i think Ronaldinho noticed tbh. Was too self absorbed.

 

It was more Kaka and not really Ronaldinho like.

 

Nah. I was paying attention to Ronaldinho (a player with ridiculous ball skill, probs more than Messi tbh) vs Zidane. ZZ came out Tops

 

Yeah, I know...my point is that in that match the 'duel' was clearly between Zidane and Kaka in terms of who controlled the game.

 

I used to be so impressed by Lil' Ron that i thought he would just take France to pieces on his own. Completely changed how i viewed football watching Zidane bring his team into it.

I was probably such a Ronaldinho fan boy that i didn't even give Kaka much thought

 

Aye, he was an absolute treat to watch for those few years like. His wow factor was right up there, but I loved him most when he only used it when it was needed. That goal against Real Madrid when he just ran at them and then lashed it in from 30 yeards.

 

[Guest firetotheworks]

I know that it's still always going to come down to opinion, but the sheer volume of people claiming that he's the best they've ever seen (who have seen or played with or against Pele, Maradona etc) is really impressive.

 

http://proudbarcelonista.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/quotes-about-lionel-messi/

[tmonkey]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

 

"Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best:

 

- Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context.

- Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed.

- Best at international level? Nowhere near.

 

I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games.

 

P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to, and so when they can't use their physical advantages (pace, acceleration, balance, etc) they're just not that effective. IMO anyway.

[Guest firetotheworks]

As I said before,  at his very best,  Zidane was just unbelievable.  The man was a magician.  Had he reached those levels like the ones he reached in Euro 2000 more consistently,  then I believe he would be mentioned more favourably.  He was the epitome of a big game player.

 

I agree, but he was no Lionel Messi at his best, not by a long chalk. Not even Ronaldo at his best was.

 

There I'll have to disagree completely with you. Both at their peak were as good as Messi in my opinion if not better. Difference is Messi has been able to maintain the same level for so many games in a row, so many years in a row it's become something we haven't seen from a player in this generation and that's what makes him the best of his generation in my opinion.

 

Nah, sorry like. Just no. Messi scored in every match at his peak, as in he scored 33 goals in 21 games in a row, he scored f***ing 91 goals in 69 games man, again including the important ones.

 

He's scored in:

 

2009 and 2012 Copa Del Rey Final

2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 Supercopa Finals

2009 and 2011 Champions League Finals (he was also man of the match in both)

2011 Supercup Final

2009 and 2011 World Club Cup Finals

 

He's also scored 21 goals in 27 el clasicos with 15 assists.

 

Messi was the better player at his best or at his worst and literally the only reason to suggest otherwise is Zidane's goals in the '98 final and Messi missing in the '14 final. Even then it's ridiculous tbh.

 

Messi is the best player that we've seen in our lifetimes and even the slightest suggestion otherwise is nothing short of preposterous contrarianism.

 

"Best" is ambiguous/subjective though. Best:

 

- Over the course of an entire season at club level? Definitely. Greatest player ever for me in that context.

- Best in the big games? Not by a long shot. I've always felt Messi was thoroughly disappointing at CL/interinational level against quality/on form defenses. Inter over two legs, Chelsea over four, even the 2 CL finals against ManU where he was ultimately quiet/poor imo. Athletico Madrid in the CL this year. 2010 World Cup when Maradona was blamed, 2014 World Cup when the World Cup was blamed.

- Best at international level? Nowhere near.

 

I'd take Messi over anyone else if you wanted to win a domestic league. Knockouts of the CL and World Cup, I'd much rather have someone who has proven they can pull the strings in big games when the attention will be on them, rather than someone who goes out without a whimper. Same applies for Cristiano Ronaldo. Amazing over a domestic season, but e.g. Figo was better on the international stage and in big CL games.

 

P.S. bit of a coincidence that both Messi and Ronaldo flop at international level, and even in the latter stages of the CL against top defenses? Ronaldo has flopped alot more, including in the CL where he's been majorly disappointing far more often than not in the knockout stages. They're ridiculous goalscoring players but neither are anything like as well rounded as some of the other legends they're being compared to. IMO anyway.

 

Messi that scored in both Champions League finals and was Man of the Match in both? He's undoubtedly a big game player as well. I've listed the finals that he's scored in. I dunno, it just seems like everyone's suddenly forgotten because of the World Cup Final. It's honestly on the level of being 'if you don't think he's the best you've ever seen (unless you've seen Pele or Maradona) then you're either being a contrarian, or you know nothing about football.' It's on that level of pig-headed arrogance about it. To me suggesting otherwise is totally insane.